DCM Novices / Sub 4:30 Mentored thread

Jenfer

Hi guys,
I have been following this log since the start and find it a great help with regard to advice and just seeing what everyone else is up to cos this marathon business can be lonely at times!!!

I was just wondering if anyone could give me advice. I am debating whether to aim for sub 4.10 or try and go out with the sub 4 pacers. i went out on friday and did my final lsr 20 miles in 3.05.

The average pace for 20 last friday was 9 min 17 sec but i finished with 9.08 9.09 and 9.02 min miles and felt ok at the end. Am seriously debating whether i should bite the bullet and head out with the sub 4 pacers? That would have me running a 9.10 pace. Training has gone well and for the first year ever -touch wood- i have been relatively injury free. am following HH novice 2.

mc millan has me at a 4.06 based on half time of 1.57 but i think i should have put myself further forward at the start as i got caught behind people on some of the narrow patches and had a pit stop too!:rolleyes:
Would really welcome any advice or ideas?

Sub430

Hi Jenfer,

I did a 1:53 half about a month back so was seriously thinking of a sub 4 but then got injured. Now I am back to my original sub 430 goal and just to finish really. It's my first marathon and don't want the actual event to turn me off marathons for life (the training has already done that :rolleyes:).

On the 20 miler were you consistently doing around 9 minute miles? If so then I would go with the Sub 4 group especially as you felt ok at the end of the 20 miler.

Jenfer

hiya 430,
yep my slowest two miles during the 20 miler were one 9.30 and one 9.25 ther rest were between 9.15-9.20, just looked there and the last 5 miles were between 9.02 and 9.08.

This marathon lark is tricky business! I think if I feel good on the morning and the rest of the taper goes ok i will just bite the bullet and go for it- if i dont commit to it i will never do it!:rolleyes:

Would agree with you on holding back a bit in the race if you are injured. I mispaced terribly last year and I was behind my time at the half way mark so decided to pick it up between about 9 and 19ish and then my calves cramped up savagely about 22/23 but defo think if i had kept the steady pace i would not have had such a blowout.

They sure are right when they say its not the distance thats the killer its the pace!!! I hope the injury settles down for you, on my first marathon (this is only number 3 for me- still have lots and lots to learn!) i ended up with achilles problem 3 weeks before and ended up on a bike for the taper, but still really really really enjoyed the day out and ran a 4.21 which i would not have thought i could do a few weeks earlier. So do everything by the book and more to mind your injury. This time three weeks we will be all on the way for a well deserved drink cant wait!!!

Sub430

5 miles done, felt good, calf felt a bit tight but didn't hinder me at all.
Garmin is in the hospital getting his face fixed so just ran on feel which is probably a good thing. Best run in ages. Enjoyed it.

Maybe an enforced break is a good thing, certainly makes you appreciate running a bit more. Hopefully that's the end of the injuries. Onwards and upwards everybody.:)

Mr Marenghi

only got to do my 20miler today. Had a long crap day at work where I was on my feet all day so wondered if i'd be fit for it....but - awesome run. Felt so good and can definitley imagine doing 6more. Not that I enjoyed all of it and would not have enjoyed 6 more miles, but definitley doable !

Did the 20miles in 3hrs 20mins - glad it's done now, easy runs from here on in !

sideswipe

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

only got to do my 20miler today. Had a long crap day at work where I was on my feet all day so wondered if i'd be fit for it....but - awesome run. Felt so good and can definitley imagine doing 6more. Not that I enjoyed all of it and would not have enjoyed 6 more miles, but definitley doable !

Did the 20miles in 3hrs 20mins - glad it's done now, easy runs from here on in !

Congrats Mr Marenghi, that’s a hell of a nice way to feel after a 20 miler, I’m so jealous. I was the same as you and put off my 20 miler till last night coz of some injury niggles and felt the total opposite of you, I felt sh1t, totally drained and spent with thoughts like- ‘HTF am could I do another 6 miles’. My confidence is shot to crap now and seems to swing wildly from very positive to very negative. I'm hoping the taper will help, god knows my body needs it as only last week I thought I'd miss out altogether with a shin problem that healed up only to be replaced with some knee trouble, I now feel like I may have to hobble up to the start line never mind the finish line. Sorry for the little rant, just had to get it off my chest as this is probably the only place where people understand what I'm going through. Amadeus, any chance of speeding up that PMA speech, I think I'm turning schizophrenic!

Oryx

Sideswipe, sorry to hear you had a crap run, but at least you did it, and mentally youll be all the stronger for getting through it. Everyone has those kinds of runs. It seems to be cyclical, you have a coupla good weeks, then a rotten one. Its normal, I think. Youll be buoyed up on the buzz of the day, and if you can grind out that horrible 20, you can do the 26 on the day. Youve shown you're strong enough.

I ran last night on the tready, but I'm carrying a lot of tiredness from the weekend. Only managed 3.5 miles, and had to come off, I was ready to be sick, and shaky for a while afterwards. My body seems to be telling me 'sit down!':) So I will. Try again tomorrow.

sideswipe

Thanks Oryx, I think I just need to sort my head out at this stage!

MCOS

Bally8 wrote: »

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|1|11|317|Good to be back (ish) |
Rainbow|4|40|342|20 miler HURT. Glad to have it done though.|
Mr Marenghi|||||
osnola ivax|4|26|413||
Bally8|3|29.5|361.5|Bad start to the week but great finish|
Goofygirl|4|40|402|lalalala tapering|
Buck65|||||
menoscemo|4|40|439|Delighted. got LSR done and a sub 22min 5k:)|
Shadyladee|||||

Some excellent work going on here by this group. Almost there guys, taper smart and best of luck to you all

Mr Marenghi

sideswipe wrote: »

Congrats Mr Marenghi, that’s a hell of a nice way to feel after a 20 miler, I’m so jealous. I was the same as you and put off my 20 miler till last night coz of some injury niggles and felt the total opposite of you, I felt sh1t, totally drained and spent with thoughts like- ‘HTF am could I do another 6 miles’. My confidence is shot to crap now and seems to swing wildly from very positive to very negative. I'm hoping the taper will help, god knows my body needs it as only last week I thought I'd miss out altogether with a shin problem that healed up only to be replaced with some knee trouble, I now feel like I may have to hobble up to the start line never mind the finish line. Sorry for the little rant, just had to get it off my chest as this is probably the only place where people understand what I'm going through. Amadeus, any chance of speeding up that PMA speech, I think I'm turning schizophrenic!

If it makes you feel any better my 18miler 2 wks ago was hell ! and i was really well rested and prepared for that, way more than I was for the 20

menoscemo

Hey Mr Marenghi, now that my main man OI has dropped out I've been meaning to ask you what is you target time? You seem to be around the same level as me based on HM. I am planning to join the sub 4 hr pacers group on the day. Yourself? Or are going to try it solo?

--amadeus--

menoscemo wrote: »

Hey Mr Marenghi, now that my main man OI has dropped out I've been meaning to ask you what is you target time? You seem to be around the same level as me based on HM. I am planning to join the sub 4 hr pacers group on the day. Yourself? Or are going to try it solo?

OI dropped out? Did I miss a memo??

xebec

--amadeus-- wrote: »

OI dropped out? Did I miss a memo??

See his log... Bad news

menoscemo

--amadeus-- wrote: »

OI dropped out? Did I miss a memo??

yeah unfortunately his ITB has been playing up and he cannot continue
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055547230

Mr Marenghi

menoscemo wrote: »

Hey Mr Marenghi, now that my main man OI has dropped out I've been meaning to ask you what is you target time? You seem to be around the same level as me based on HM. I am planning to join the sub 4 hr pacers group on the day. Yourself? Or are going to try it solo?

I dunno. I'd like to try sub 4 if it was possible. What do you think Amadeus ?
My times -

1/2 marathon - 1hr 47mins
20miler - 3hrs 20mins - this was on the streets and had a good bit of waiting at traffic lights

menoscemo

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

I dunno. I'd like to try sub 4 if it was possible. What do you think Amadeus ?
My times -

1/2 marathon - 1hr 47mins
20miler - 3hrs 20mins - this was on the streets and had a good bit of waiting at traffic lights

I dunno what Amadeus thinks but if you did 1hr 47 for the half you are well inside 4hrs pace for the full (providing you got the training runs in)....I think the pacing group is great as I tend to go out too fast and the best of all is that the main man Amadeus himslef is going to be one of the sub4 pacers

Mr Marenghi

menoscemo wrote: »

I dunno what Amadeus thinks but if you did 1hr 47 for the half you are well inside 4hrs pace for the full (providing you got the training runs in)....I think the pacing group is great as I tend to go out too fast and the best of all is that the main man Amadeus himslef is going to be one of the sub4 pacers

Yeah maybe, I'll decide closer to the day I think. Will see how the taper runs go between now and then.

goofygirl

I will be scraping the ice off the saddle on my bike to cycle home and then will go for a 5 mile run in a snowstorm. O Canada.

goofygirl

Just back from aforementioned 5-miler. Snow flurries, air temperature of minus 6 but windchill took it down to minus 14. Slipped twice on ice. Still, it was good motivation to keep up a brisk pace even if muscles never got a chance to warm up.

Poor legs don't know what's going on. "I thought you said it was going to get easier once we were tapering?" they keep protesting.

Dreading to see what the weather will throw at me for the 12 miler on Saturday.

No complaints about the Irish weather will hitherto be tolerated from this quarter. This is my 4th winter in Canada so I know exactly what winter is like (we'll have snow now until at least April), but it's my first one training for a marathon.

(But is it weird that I'm already scoping marathons for 2010?)

Mr Marenghi

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|1|11|317|Good to be back (ish) |
Rainbow|4|40|342|20 miler HURT. Glad to have it done though.|
Mr Marenghi|4|24|334|had to move the 20miler to this week, so miles are down here but got it done this week !|
osnola ivax|4|26|413||
Bally8|3|29.5|361.5|Bad start to the week but great finish|
Goofygirl|4|40|402|lalalala tapering|
Buck65|||||
menoscemo|4|40|439|Delighted. got LSR done and a sub 22min 5k:)|
Shadyladee|||||

Sub430

5 miles done (had to rest since Tuesday as calf was playing up again ) and leg behaved itself. Fingers crossed that's the end of it. Will try a tentative 12 miles tomorrow.

Oryx

Did the Donadea 10k, 46.02. Found it hard. Kms 4 to 5 were like running underwater. Will try my 12 miler tomorrow.

goofygirl

Just back from 12 miler. Weather not as bad as it could have been: minus 7 and slight snow flurries but only light wind. By the time I was finishing, ice solids had formed in my water bottle. I had to be careful drinking from it to avoid a Jeff-Daniels-in-Dumb-and-Dumber moment. Came home and had a very long, very hot shower.

Sub430

12m done. 1h55. Please, please, pleeeeease let that be it with injuries.

--amadeus--

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

I dunno. I'd like to try sub 4 if it was possible. What do you think Amadeus ?
My times -

1/2 marathon - 1hr 47mins
20miler - 3hrs 20mins - this was on the streets and had a good bit of waiting at traffic lights

On the surface you should be well able for it. This certainly suggests so but with a first there are so many variables that the calculators can be meaningless.

What I will say is that finishing your first marathon strongly and feeling pleased with it is probably a nicer feeling than limping over teh line washed out because you set off too fast. A "soft" first time would give you an easy target to beat in your second marathon so I'd advise playing it cautiously and bagging an easy sub 4:15 (or even sub 4:30 if you are really nervous) rather than pushing for a time and falling short. But then that's sensible, boring advice and when I go to a start line I always have an aggressive target in mind and I know that if I was told to aim slow I'd ignore it and aim fast...

--amadeus--

Pfft, barely worth lacing up the trainers for these runs, you're finished before you start! (Bet you never thought you'd say "only 8 miles?"!)

Monday | Tuesday|Wedensday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday
rest|4m run|6 run|3 m run|rest|cross|8 LSR


(Link to original here)

This is an easy week for a reason. You have put your bodies through 2.5 months of hell. It has changed in dozens of ways - you're probably lighter than when you started. Your cardio vascular fitness will be unrecognisable, your ability to move air into your lungs and oxygen to your working muscles will have increased exponentially. Your body has adapted in other ways as well - you are more efficient runners now, you use less oxygen and less fuel per mile of running than when you started. Physiological changes have occurred - your leg muscles are larger and will contain a greater concentration of capillaries to move oxygen and fuel to the legs and rush away waste products. Tendons are thicker. At a cellular level you will have more mitochondria, producing more energy again helping you work harder for longer at less cost. You are probably fitter than you have been in your life and without doubt you have crafted a biological machine that is honed for one purpose - covering long distances at maximum pace and maximum efficiency.

It's been bloody hard - just look at the number of drop outs. But you have made it. You are one of an elite - look around you in a shop, at work or on the street. I guarantee you that you could outrun 99% of teh people you see.

Feels good, doesn't it?

Here's the thing though. You have been through something akin to military training, your body has been taken apart and rebuilt (like the bionic man ) to be faster and more efficient. And that has put a LOT of wear and tear on it. The building work has been done. Now it's time to let it all settle into place. Eat well - not huge amounts (that's carb loading, next week) - but good quality food. Vit supplements if you feel the need. Steer clear of germs, wash your hands and use that gel. Do teh taper runs but take them handy. DO NOT DO ANOTHER LSR JUST TO BE ON THE SAFE SIDE. It won't work and will do more harm than good. Relax. Enjoy feeling fit. Tapering is the second best bit of marathon running so enjoy it.

--amadeus--

Monday | Tuesday|Wednesday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday | MONDAY
3M run|4m run, 1 @ PMP, full dress rehersal in all kit|rest|cross|rest|rest|2m EASY| RACE


(Link to original here)

I won't have net access next Sunday so putting down next weeks plan now. I'll pop in during that week to talk about carb loading and for one final "go team!" though

Oryx

Thanks amadeus. Im all pepped up now.

Did my 12 miler today which ended up being 13, 1 hour 54. Was very happy with that considering the race yesterday. Your right about the fitness level changins, I never thought Id do that mileage and then go about the rest of my day without feeling it. Might not get to stick to the taper properly this week, as I will be away and so will have to adapt it and hope for the best.

goofygirl

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|||||
Rainbow|||||
Mr Marenghi|||||
osnola ivax|||||
Bally8|||||
Goofygirl|4|29|432|brrr it's chilly out|
Buck65|||||
menoscemo|||||
Shadyladee|||||

First of all, big big thanks for Amadeus for all his mentoring and encouraging words up till now, especially considering he has a big race coming up himself. Amadeus, we salute you.

Other than that, not much to report from this end. Dealing with the Canadian weather is growing increasingly more, eh, challenging when out running.

I fly out on the 21st, have an overnight flight then arrive on Thursday and 22nd. The coach from the group I run with here has told me to go for a run (no emphasis added, this is how he typed it) as soon as you can after the flight to minimise jet-lag and muscle soreness from long haul flying. So looks like I might be greeting my parents in running tights at Dublin Airport and then asking to be turfed out of the car a few miles from the house.

menoscemo

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|||||
Rainbow|||||
Mr Marenghi|||||
osnola ivax|||||
Bally8|||||
Goofygirl|4|29|432|brrr it's chilly out|
Buck65|||||
menoscemo|4|27|466|feel a bit of a cold coming on |
Shadyladee|||||

--amadeus-- wrote: »

look around you in a shop, at work or on the street. I guarantee you that you could outrun 99% of teh people you see.
Feels good, doesn't it?

I find myself doing this all the time and I thought it was just me and that I was slightly mad. I also find myself trying to pass everyone I meet running ahead of me. Today I passed two and it felt great!!