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Ireland to go down the Electric car route?
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even burning dino diesel in a generator and using that to charge an electric car is more efficient
10,000 charges without the 5-20% annual capacity drop of Li-ion would be good. ultracaps would be even better if the density is high enough
@kodi how many volts is that ultracap you are holding?0 -
hi on mobile so will be short.
1) tesla motors are bringing out a normal family car for sub 50k us dollars.
2)electric cars need no servicing as we know it, only thing you would need to do is change tires and top up windscreen washer. Motors are in each wheel so act as brakes and 2 or 4 wheel drive.
3)hydrogen wont be ready as a mainstream solution until 2050 even by optimists. Why wait?
4) battery tech is improving like pc chip technology, charge times are coming down and efficency is going up.
5)an electric car will whip any petrol or diesel car off the line, check out GM EV1 vs porsche or ferrari on you tube.
6)most peoples car journeys are sub 50 miles daily, not everyone but most people, so a 250 mile range car would only need to be charged every 4-5 day's, hardly a big deal?
7) electricity a big problem for us were 90% plus fossil production so completely defeat's the purpose, right? Ok what if ye were a 100% green electric producing country? Then all electric cars is the way to go? How do we do this? www.spiritofireland.org could be the answer, use wind energy to pump sea water into hydro dams to store and produce clean electricity. We even have the capacity to export energy. I've on connection to above just support the idea.
8) under these conditions what do people think now?0 -
gpjordanf1 wrote: »hi on mobile so will be short.
1) tesla motors are bringing out a normal family car for sub 50k us dollars.gpjordanf1 wrote: »2)electric cars need no servicing as we know it, only thing you would need to do is change tires and top up windscreen washer. Motors are in each wheel so act as brakes and 2 or 4 wheel drive.gpjordanf1 wrote: »3)hydrogen wont be ready as a mainstream solution until 2050 even by optimists. Why wait?gpjordanf1 wrote: »4) battery tech is improving like pc chip technology, charge times are coming down and efficency is going up.gpjordanf1 wrote: »5)an electric car will whip any petrol or diesel car off the line, check out GM EV1 vs porsche or ferrari on you tube.
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but a porsche or a ferrai will whip the EV on a circuit... the EV1 corners like a whale...gpjordanf1 wrote: »6)most peoples car journeys are sub 50 miles daily, not everyone but most people, so a 250 mile range car would only need to be charged every 4-5 day's, hardly a big deal?
while that is true, and I am one of them, I travel less than 50 miles on 90% of my journeys, but what do I do on the 10% when I want to drive more than the range of the cars batteries????
stop pull in and charge my car over many many hours....gpjordanf1 wrote: »7) electricity a big problem for us were 90% plus fossil production so completely defeat's the purpose, right? Ok what if ye were a 100% green electric producing country? Then all electric cars is the way to go? How do we do this? www.spiritofireland.org could be the answer, use wind energy to pump sea water into hydro dams to store and produce clean electricity. We even have the capacity to export energy. I've on connection to above just support the idea.gpjordanf1 wrote: »8) under these conditions what do people think now?
While I love the idea of electric cars, I do not think we are ready for mass acceptence of them.
The electric car meets can accomodate most of the people most of the time, but they need to accomodate all of the people all of the time just as good as petrol does to be a viable alternative...
put it this way , if you where in the market for a new family car.. like a focus....
would you be willing to buy a car that is three times the prices,
once filled up can only cover have the range of the petrol car and then takes a few hours to top up with energy....
this car also claims to be enviromentally freindly, but in the country you live it, it's not..... and lets not even get started on the damage the mining of the material used in batteries has had on the enviroment
running costs are less, a good deal less.... but no where near good enough to make up for the initial 3 times the price initial cost over a normal petrol car....0 -
to towel401: it's 27F, 2.7V high performance (low internal resistance) ultracap. It can store roughly 98J of energy which is around 27mWh. Maybe not too much for the first sight
robtri:not 100% sure about that, surely the electric motor needs new bushes and a regular check up???
what if I say that I know electric engine that has one million kilometers life and doesn't need any regular checkup, because it's self diagnostic and check's up itself like 500 times a second and currently it is produced and installed in one of the electric cars?running costs are less, a good deal less.... but no where near good enough to make up for the initial 3 times the price initial cost over a normal petrol car...
The problem is - most car manufacturers are earning little to none on actual car sales. Major of the income is "authorized service station" scheme, mandatory checks and last but not least - parts. In EV there is nothing to do unless it will break, so you just cannot apply the same scheme.and they still are not at acceptable levels... till they are this will always be the achilles heel of the electric motor
Current battery size to get a range of 500km can be about 100 liters in volume. Not much bigger than a fuel tank. Oh, did I mention that clutch, brakes, gear box can be scrapped for properly designed EV? It's like 200-300 kg?but a porsche or a ferrai will whip the EV on a circuit... the EV1 corners like a whale...I travel less than 50 miles on 90% of my journeys, but what do I do on the 10% when I want to drive more than the range of the cars batteries????
stop pull in and charge my car over many many hours....
Or stop, connect the charger, have cup of coffee and drive away? It all depends on charger. Battery is not a limit in this case.there is no "what if's" we aren't a green energy producing country.... and thats a fact which makes crap of all the arguments for using green electric cars....
Check how much energy is going into the refining process from crude oil to petrol in your tank. When I was doing case study it occured than even modern coal-powered power plants are more "green" than cars on the road.
Oh, have you seen any city-centre polluting electric power-plant? No?
PS. I'm just trying to have this thread more active0 -
Eamon Ryan is on RTE 1 Radio talking about this and other things at the moment.0
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to towel401: it's 27F, 2.7V high performance (low internal resistance) ultracap. It can store roughly 98J of energy which is around 27mWh. Maybe not too much for the first sight
robtri:
what if I say that I know electric engine that has one million kilometers life and doesn't need any regular checkup, because it's self diagnostic and check's up itself like 500 times a second and currently it is produced and installed in one of the electric cars?
The problem is - most car manufacturers are earning little to none on actual car sales. Major of the income is "authorized service station" scheme, mandatory checks and last but not least - parts. In EV there is nothing to do unless it will break, so you just cannot apply the same scheme.
Current battery size to get a range of 500km can be about 100 liters in volume. Not much bigger than a fuel tank. Oh, did I mention that clutch, brakes, gear box can be scrapped for properly designed EV? It's like 200-300 kg?
because EV1 wasn't meant for circuit. Check the Wrightspeed X1 - it was.
Or stop, connect the charger, have cup of coffee and drive away? It all depends on charger. Battery is not a limit in this case.
Check how much energy is going into the refining process from crude oil to petrol in your tank. When I was doing case study it occured than even modern coal-powered power plants are more "green" than cars on the road.
Oh, have you seen any city-centre polluting electric power-plant? No?
PS. I'm just trying to have this thread more active
I like Electric cars.. but am not convinced there is a viable alternative yet...
Can you tell me what currently available electric car has this 1million km engine ?
has a range of 500km and full charge in less than 15 mins( while I have my coffee)
I won't deny that modern coal plants are more green than cars... but they still aren't green or enviromentally safe...
and there are numerous coal fired plants around the world within cities limits...0 -
I saw the film "Who Killed the Electric Car?" a while back and the he later portion of the movie is organized around the following hypothesized culprits in the downfall of the electric car, with verdict of each suspect given at the end of the film:
Batteries
Limited range (60-70 miles) and reliability in the first EV-1s to ship, but better (110 - 160 miles) later. Research says the average driving distance of Americans in a day is 30 miles or less and that 90% of Americans could use electric cars in their daily commute. The film also showed that the company who had supplied batteries for EV-1 had been suppressed from announcing the improved batteries that can double the range of EV-1, and General Motors had sold the supplier's majority control share to an oil company. Towards the end of the film, an engineer explains that, as of the interview, lithium ion batteries, the same technology available in laptops, would have allowed the EV-1 to be upgraded to a range of 300 miles per charge.
Verdict: Not Guilty
Oil companies
Fearful of losing business to a competing technology, they supported efforts to kill the ZEV mandate. They also bought patents to prevent modern NiMH batteries from being used in US electric cars. The film also used the crash of oil prices in 1980s as an example of foreign governments and oil companies trying to keep customers from moving towards independence from oil.
Verdict: Guilty
More "suspects" in the film.
My own take is that electric cars are a viable option to petrol/diesel and has been for over 10 years, since the EV, but it needs the state to step in and put the infrastructure in place as well as subsidise cars.
Quite interesting film, it's free to watch on google video I think0 -
I like Electric cars.. but am not convinced there is a viable alternative yet...
Can you tell me what currently available electric car has this 1million km engine ?
has a range of 500km and full charge in less than 15 mins( while I have my coffee)
I won't deny that modern coal plants are more green than cars... but they still aren't green or enviromentally safe...
and there are numerous coal fired plants around the world within cities limits...
Lightning GT with extended battery pack that uses 4 PML Flightlink electric engines (currently Printed Motor Works). It's a sport car and costs arm and leg at this moment, but from what I saw in this car - it's the design I would vote for.0 -
No disrespect intended, but there's a lot of ignorance here about current (excuse the pun) battery technology. High efficiency electric motors don't have brushes any more. The newest breakthrough in charging is that a battery can be 90% charged in three minutes.250 miles on a charge is plenty in Dublin. My commute would be about 20 miles per weekday, maybe 60 miles at the weekend, plus another 15 miles for running to the shops. That totals about 175 miles, or a charge every 10 days without bothering about charging stations. I wouldn't be driving down the country so no long hops. Coupled with all that will be fierce acceleration, quattro-like grip and near-zero maintenance.0
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until theres an electric 4x4 thats big, can pull 2.5 tonnes and has the same/better acceleration and torque as a kia sorento/ pajero lwb - then no , but if that ever happens, i might consider electric,
ohh and most importantly, dont make it look like an electric/hybrid car, the thing i really hate about the prius : it looks like its a hybrid/electric-"the george regular" mobile0 -
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a normal family car liek the ford focus in the USA cost $15,000, that means the Tesla normal family car is three times the price..... what normal family over here is going to pay around €64,000 for a car????
Not the point, this is the first run family saloon EV cars, three times the price is not meant for the typical Focus buying family. They will be snapped up by wealthier eco loving wanna be seen buyers. Money not an issue.
We're further down the feeding chain, probably 5th production run with maybe a 33% premium, this will be offset by no fuel costs, no servicing costs, low tax band, probable grants tax rebates or scrappage schemes. SO at that rate it will be a runner. And when it comes the norm and more companies are making the EV cars they will be on par with fossil fuel cars. Less than 10 years easy.not 100% sure about that, surely the electric motor needs new bushes and a regular check up???
Nope modern electric motors have moved on.and they still are not at acceptable levels... till they are this will always be the achilles heel of the electric motor.
they are wll withing acceptable levels and will only improve, I drive a thirsty car, i usually have to stop to refuel on a return journey. Its not a big deal, to fill up and go in and pay, have a leak and smoke usually take like 10 - 15 minutes, this is well withing the times required for modern battery charging. Were already there. I would swap in the morning!but a porsche or a ferrai will whip the EV on a circuit... the EV1 corners like a whale...
Again not the point, the EV1 was a first run EV production car and in its short life it could out drag and embarrass the pedigree of fossil fueled sports cars with a centuary of development. Thats serious!while that is true, and I am one of them, I travel less than 50 miles on 90% of my journeys, but what do I do on the 10% when I want to drive more than the range of the cars batteries????
stop pull in and charge my car over many many hours....
Modern battery charge times are down to minutes now, with specialised charge stations this would take no longer than filling the tank as I said above. Not a big deal anymore.there is no "what if's" we aren't a green energy producing country.... and thats a fact which makes crap of all the arguments for using green electric cars....While I love the idea of electric cars, I do not think we are ready for mass acceptence of them.
The electric car meets can accomodate most of the people most of the time, but they need to accomodate all of the people all of the time just as good as petrol does to be a viable alternative...
I agree EV cars cant accomodate all of the people all of the time, buts thats not a valid reason not to put them into production straight away for the 90% of the peole that they will suit and in a short time they will be developed for the magic 100%
Well hers hoping the sooner the better!put it this way , if you where in the market for a new family car.. like a focus....
would you be willing to buy a car that is three times the prices,once filled up can only cover have the range of the petrol car and then takes a few hours to top up with energy....this car also claims to be enviromentally freindly, but in the country you live it, it's not..... and lets not even get started on the damage the mining of the material used in batteries has had on the enviroment
These cars are environmentally friendly, cant be argued against. So should we stop mining? haven't heard much about this before? Is it all mining or just anything related to batteries? New to me anyway?running costs are less, a good deal less.... but no where near good enough to make up for the initial 3 times the price initial cost over a normal petrol car....
Again on a first run its not viable, its the same as when Blue Ray or LCD came out first, I remember when LCD cam out first a 28" TV was in the region of £10,000, not Euro. Same with Blue Ray, they were around the 2k mark, now ya can get them for 3-400, the same will applay to these cars in a very short space of time. Cant wait!0 -
Eric Cartman wrote: »until theres an electric 4x4 thats big, can pull 2.5 tonnes and has the same/better acceleration and torque as a kia sorento/ pajero lwb - then no , but if that ever happens, i might consider electric,
ohh and most importantly, dont make it look like an electric/hybrid car, the thing i really hate about the prius : it looks like its a hybrid/electric-"the george regular" mobile
All EVs have 100% torque from 0mph, its a flat line. No diesel 4x4 can boast the same!0 -
gpjordanf1 wrote: »All EVs have 100% torque from 0mph, its a flat line. No diesel 4x4 can boast the same!
To be accurate, it's not a flat line, it's a linear torque 'curve'.0 -
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Lightning GT with extended battery pack that uses 4 PML Flightlink electric engines (currently Printed Motor Works). It's a sport car and costs arm and leg at this moment, but from what I saw in this car - it's the design I would vote for.
Can you link to this, I can only find resources saying up to 250 mile range and thats being optimistic I hear.....
I won't say anything about the cost nearly €300,000......gpjordanf1 wrote: »Not the point, this is the first run family saloon EV cars, three times the price is not meant for the typical Focus buying family. They will be snapped up by wealthier eco loving wanna be seen buyers. Money not an issue.
Sorry it is the point, would your average consumer buy it NOW, then the answer is NO...gpjordanf1 wrote: »We're further down the feeding chain, probably 5th production run with maybe a 33% premium, this will be offset by no fuel costs, no servicing costs, low tax band, probable grants tax rebates or scrappage schemes. SO at that rate it will be a runner. And when it comes the norm and more companies are making the EV cars they will be on par with fossil fuel cars. Less than 10 years easy.gpjordanf1 wrote: »Nope modern electric motors have moved on.
so why is it that the TESLA ev car, needs a $1,000 a year maint and service interval????gpjordanf1 wrote: »they are wll withing acceptable levels and will only improve, I drive a thirsty car, i usually have to stop to refuel on a return journey. Its not a big deal, to fill up and go in and pay, have a leak and smoke usually take like 10 - 15 minutes, this is well withing the times required for modern battery charging. Were already there. I would swap in the morning!gpjordanf1 wrote: »Again not the point, the EV1 was a first run EV production car and in its short life it could out drag and embarrass the pedigree of fossil fueled sports cars with a centuary of development. Thats serious!
anyway the offical 0-60 time for an EV1 is 9 secs....
not blisterring quick either...gpjordanf1 wrote: »Modern battery charge times are down to minutes now, with specialised charge stations this would take no longer than filling the tank as I said above. Not a big deal anymore.gpjordanf1 wrote: »Your right we should no longer accept what ifs, we have this resource at our door steps, surely we should use it? Sad!gpjordanf1 wrote: »I agree EV cars cant accomodate all of the people all of the time, buts thats not a valid reason not to put them into production straight away for the 90% of the peole that they will suit and in a short time they will be developed for the magic 100%
Well hers hoping the sooner the better!
my point was because they currently don't meet joe soaps current needs, and joe soaps percieved needs, then they won't sell......gpjordanf1 wrote: »Nope I would eait till it was more affordable, see my first point.gpjordanf1 wrote: »Only takes minutes to charge so a few extra stops over the year wont bother me.gpjordanf1 wrote: »These cars are environmentally friendly, cant be argued against. So should we stop mining? haven't heard much about this before? Is it all mining or just anything related to batteries? New to me anyway?
look at this comparison
how green is an electric car?????????
ok lets look at the REVA here,
say you do 10,000km a year in it...
at 9.66KWh of energy for 70Km thats is 1380KW per year...
at eleccy grid co2 emmissions( I had to use the UK numbers didn't have irish) that equates to 0.741t of Co2 a year....
not very green is it......gpjordanf1 wrote: »Again on a first run its not viable, its the same as when Blue Ray or LCD came out first, I remember when LCD cam out first a 28" TV was in the region of £10,000, not Euro. Same with Blue Ray, they were around the 2k mark, now ya can get them for 3-400, the same will applay to these cars in a very short space of time. Cant wait!
again, I was responding to the question of NOW.... and you have just re-enforced that, now is not the time to buy an EV car..0 -
Hey robtri,
How did you calculate the amount of CO2 per KWH? It's different for every person, surely. If I buy my electricity from airtricity, the amount of CO2 generated will be different than if I buy it from the ESB.0 -
Hey robtri,
How did you calculate the amount of CO2 per KWH? It's different for every person, surely. If I buy my electricity from airtricity, the amount of CO2 generated will be different than if I buy it from the ESB.
actually your CO2 will be no different no matter who you buy it off....
Your actual electricity comes from the national grid, which eirtricity feed into, so you are not getting any more green energy than your next door neighbor who pays the ESb and not airtricity. the CO2 per KWH is an average for the grid.0 -
Sure, electricity comes from the national grid.
But if you chose to buy your electricity from airtricity would you agree that the money from your bill would go towards funding renewable sources of power generation rather than non-renewable sources?0 -
Sure, electricity comes from the national grid.
But if you chose to buy your electricity from airtricity would you agree that the money from your bill would go towards funding renewable sources of power generation rather than non-renewable sources?
Absolutely agree, and I do it myself at home and at work, we as a country need to move towards more renewables and ditch coal and oil....
but no matter who you fund, if you pull your electricity off the grid, you are in effect using electricity that causes CO2.0 -
This
is out for test drives now and will be available to buy in 2011
(depending on price, it could very well imagine this as my next peasant-mobile)
Here is Renaults press release on electric vehicles
http://www.renault.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Communiqué%20de%20presse/en-EN/Pieces%20jointes/20356_CP_Essai_KangoobebopZE__290609_GB_E5CDC2D7.pdf0 -
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This
is out for test drives now and will be available to buy in 2011
(depending on price, it could very well imagine this as my next peasant-mobile)
Here is Renaults press release on electric vehicles
http://www.renault.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Communiqué%20de%20presse/en-EN/Pieces%20jointes/20356_CP_Essai_KangoobebopZE__290609_GB_E5CDC2D7.pdf
Not a bad EV looking car...
Still the issue of 100KM range will be a massive issue for people... seriously thats only 60 mile range.... but they hope to extend that to a real world 160KM by production ... thats just under 100 miles...
charging via a normal 220v socket at home takes between 6 and 8 HOURS... not ideal
using a fast charge 400v charge station, takes 30mins, which is good, BUT you only get 80% battery charge... which means your range till next charge drops from 100 miles to a maximum of 80 miles....
don't get me wrong depending on the price.... I would still be very interested.....
BUT it cannot compete with the versatility of a petrol or diesel car at the moment.0 -
Hey robtri,
How did you calculate the amount of CO2 per KWH? It's different for every person, surely. If I buy my electricity from airtricity, the amount of CO2 generated will be different than if I buy it from the ESB.
The average Irish value is 538g/kWh. That is the current "standard" figure and should be up for review soon.0 -
Driving an electric cars gives you a choice which fossil fuel cars don't.
You can drive your electric car, pay your electricity bill to airtricity and in doing so support renewable power generation.
With a fossil fuel powered car you have no choice but to give your money to oil company.
Sure, electric cars won't be suitable for everyone. But I think the point is not to have all electric cars but to increased number of these cars.0 -
The average Irish value is 538g/kWh. That is the current "standard" figure and should be up for review soon.
thats close to the figure I used to determine the CO2 value for the REVA electric car... using that figure it still responsible for 0.742 tonnes of CO2 for the year.. based on a figure of 10,000km a year0 -
That's 74.22g per km
Are there any fossel fuel cars that can achieve that?0 -
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So for the Reva, it would require 1380kwh to travel 10000 km
On urban night saver that would be
€0.0769 per kwh * 1380 = €106.22
How much do you reckon you'd have to spend on petrol/diesel to travel the same distance?
€106.22 for 10,000kms seems cheap to me.0 -
So for the Reva, it would require 1380kwh to travel 10000 km
On urban night saver that would be
0.0769 per kwh * 1380 = 106.22
How much do you reckon you'd have to spend on petrol/diesel to travel the same distance?
106.22 for 10,000kms seems cheap to me.
well that's a big seller surely, bye bye petrol and diesel. Well not really but figures like that cant be argued against. 106 yo yo's for 10k kms!0 -
gpjordanf1 wrote: »well that's a big seller surely, bye bye petrol and diesel. Well not really but figures like that cant be argued against. 106 yo yo's for 10k kms!
That price is dependant on only charging your car at night,
remember it has a range of only 80Km and takes 4-6 hours to charge...
so add to that 106e the cost of trains or car rental per year needed to go anywhere over 40Km from your house :eek::eek:
a proper efficeint disel like polo bluemotion does 62mpg.... so over 10,000km thats €420.00 in fuel...
so for that small saving of €300 a year( excluding trains, buses car rentals when the reva doesn't work practically) you have the privillage of driving this lovely looking car... the REVA
personally I would spend the extra €300 a year on fuel and drive a polo
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So for the Reva, it would require 1380kwh to travel 10000 km
On urban night saver that would be
€0.0769 per kwh * 1380 = €106.22
How much do you reckon you'd have to spend on petrol/diesel to travel the same distance?
€106.22 for 10,000kms seems cheap to me.
When/if carbon tax comes in the next budget the difference will be even greater. The tax will apply to directly consumed fossil fuels, but not to fuels used in the production of electricity, as electricity generation is already covered by an existing carbon trading system.0
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