I am paying more for somebodys public sector pension than my own Private pension

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Instead of bringing employee contribution up to the "appropriate level" ( some have calculated this to be over 25% of pay ) for public service pensions, why have these pensions so high in the first place? There cannot be found - not even by the public servant people + public service pensioners on this board - another country anywhere in the world where public service pensions ( never mind pay ) are as high as they are in Ireland. If public servants want a high pension, let them top up a lower level pension with additional savings made through their working years, either in investment products or private pensions.

jimmmy, when are you going to bring something new to this discussion? Your opinions are well-known to anybody with the patience to read your multiple posts essentially repeating the same few things.

Rob67

jimmmy wrote: »

Instead of bringing employee contribution up to the "appropriate level" ( some have calculated this to be over 25% of pay )

Who, or what, is this 'some'? Or is this just another random concept emanating from the fantasy world of Jimmmy?

jimmmy

When are you going to answer the question P. Breathnach ? " Instead of bringing employee contribution up to the "appropriate level" ( some have calculated this to be over 25% of pay ) for public service pensions, why have these pensions so high in the first place?"

Incidentally, you being a retired public servant seem to post out of normal office hours, so perhaps you can reply sooner rather than later. Some of your friends who still work in the public service seem to post mainly during weekday office hours.

If you have time perhaps you can find another country anywhere in the world where public service pensions ( never mind pay ) are as high ( if not higher ) as they are in Ireland. It will help your argument.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

When are you going to answer the question P. Breathnach ? " Instead of bringing employee contribution up to the "appropriate level" ( some have calculated this to be over 25% of pay ) for public service pensions, why have these pensions so high in the first place?"

I choose not to answer loaded questions. I have a particular dislike of providing information to people who don't make a contribution to the body of data on which questions like this might usefully be discussed.

Incidentally, you being a retired public servant seem to post out of normal office hours, so perhaps you can reply sooner rather than later. Some of your friends who still work in the public service seem to post mainly during weekday office hours.

So far as I know, none of my friends employed in the public service posts here -- but I generally don't know the real identities behind noms de clavier. It is obvious that many people, both in the public service and in the private sector, spend some of their working time getting involved in discussion here.

If you have time perhaps you can find another country anywhere in the world where public service pensions ( never mind pay ) are as high ( if not higher ) as they are in Ireland. It will help your argument.

What argument?

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

When are you going to answer the question P. Breathnach ? " Instead of bringing employee contribution up to the "appropriate level" ( some have calculated this to be over 25% of pay ) for public service pensions, why have these pensions so high in the first place?"

Incidentally, you being a retired public servant seem to post out of normal office hours, so perhaps you can reply sooner rather than later. Some of your friends who still work in the public service seem to post mainly during weekday office hours.

If you have time perhaps you can find another country anywhere in the world where public service pensions ( never mind pay ) are as high ( if not higher ) as they are in Ireland. It will help your argument.

Hi Jimmmy, If I use your now famous example of 966 euro a week for a public sector worker my pension contributions would be 6274.62 euro per year. This is 120.67 euro per week. pension levy can be worked out here.

http://www.joinatradeunion.com/calculate.aspx

Is this contribution not 'appropriate' enough for you?:rolleyes:
Do you pay more for your pension? I doubt it!
I've even shown in an earlier post that if I could opt out of the pension scheme and stick my contributions somewhere as boring as the post office I would EASILY fund my pension.:)
After losing that argument you then go on to say pensions are too high:D:D
As for the old chestnut about pay being higher here than other countries. Pay is higher in all sectors in this country and I work for and contribute to this country so pay and pensions in other countries are completely irrelevent to me, and before you say I'm 'in the public sector and don't contribute' etc. I work for a commercial semi state dept. and make more than I earn for my employer, plus I've spent most of my working life in the private sector 'paying proper tax' :D:D.
Its also a bit rich going on about people posting in office hours when you are on here 24/7:D:D.
Pot, kettle, black, put these three words into a sentence.:rolleyes:
you don't seem to be contributing too much to the economy these past few months:D:D
In my own case I won't get anywhere near qualifying for a full public sestor pension but anything I do receive I will have more than paid for it:)

jimmmy

grahamo wrote: »

Pay is higher in all sectors in this country and I work for and contribute to this country so pay and pensions in other countries are completely irrelevent to me

They may be, but as a citizen and taxpayer you should be concerned about the state of our public finances and economy - most other people are, but then again most other people do not have your high level of government guaranteed pay and a government guaranteed pension to look forward to. You indeed can bury your head in the sand as long as the taxpayers in this country continue to pay the government and their employees highly......
I am not on here 24/7, but if I seem to be to you, then indeed you also seem to be....must be a great government job you have. Seeing as you have all this time, perhaps you can find another country anywhere in the world where public service pensions ( never mind pay ) are as high ( if not higher ) as they are in Ireland ?

jimmmy

Count Dooku wrote: »

I seen thousands explanations why PS workers must have their high salaries
I don’t understand one thing
Why in most developed EU countries average salary of PS workers is less then average salary of private workers and they have working public services.
Where it has been mentioned first time
Industrial & Services* Public Sector Differential % of Ind&Serv

Denmark € 44,403 € 40,952 -€ 3,451 -7.77%
Germany € 35,421 € 33,905 -€ 1,516 -4.28%
Ireland € 35,746 € 45,643 € 9,897 27.69%
Netherlands € 36,195 € 36,038 -€ 157 -0.43%
Finland € 31,995 € 28,569 -€ 3,426 -10.71%
Britain € 38,036 € 35,189 -€ 2,847 -7.49%
BTW, Finland and Denmark are not cheaper then Ireland, therefore argument that Ireland overpriced will not be accepted

Nobody has answered this yet either.

It blows out of the water grahams argument " As for the old chestnut about pay being higher here than other countries. Pay is higher in all sectors in this country and I work for and contribute to this country so pay and pensions in other countries are completely irrelevent to me,", as pay can be compared across other EC countries....our public sector pay is higher, but private sector often lower etc

Count Dooku

grahamo wrote: »

Hi Jimmmy, If I use your now famous example of 966 euro a week for a public sector worker my pension contributions would be 6274.62 euro per year. This is 120.67 euro per week. pension levy can be worked out here.

http://www.joinatradeunion.com/calculate.aspx

Is this contribution not 'appropriate' enough for you?:rolleyes:
Do you pay more for your pension? I doubt it!
I've even shown in an earlier post that if I could opt out of the pension scheme and stick my contributions somewhere as boring as the post office I would EASILY fund my pension.:)
After losing that argument you then go on to say pensions are too high:D:D

Pension is not too high, contributions are too low
A lot pension fund lost about 50% of their value and will lose more, spending pensions money on their salaries.
I think that pension levy must be doubled as price for state guarantee…

jimmmy

grahamo wrote: »

http://www.joinatradeunion.com/calculate.aspx
Is this contribution not 'appropriate' enough for you?:rolleyes:

Public service peoples contributions to pensions are not enough , no, and it helps leave a huge hole in the public finances. Even using your calculator above, a single person on the average public service wage pays only € 6236.34 a year towards their pension. The typical public servant is paying even less than that, even after the latest govt budget. Given that people are living longer, and retiring on a much higher figure than that, and getting a large lump sum, no, its not enough, not by a long shot, as has been worked out before. If it is, why not extend it to the general population ....I would love a similar guaranteed pension for similar contributions, as would most of the 1,800,000 in the private sector.

ParkRunner

jimmmy wrote: »

perhaps you can find another country anywhere in the world where public service pensions ( never mind pay ) are as high ( if not higher ) as they are in Ireland ?

Canada looks pretty sweet!

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/pensions/psppg-corprfp-eng.asp

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/Pensions/guides/v103-eng.asp#pii1ex1

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... its not enough, not by a long shot, as has been worked out before...

Who worked it out? Citation, please.

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

Public service peoples contributions to pensions are not enough , no, and it helps leave a huge hole in the public finances. Even using your calculator above, a single person on the average public service wage pays only € 6236.34 a year towards their pension. The typical public servant is paying even less than that, even after the latest govt budget. Given that people are living longer, and retiring on a much higher figure than that, and getting a large lump sum, no, its not enough, not by a long shot, as has been worked out before. If it is, why not extend it to the general population ....I would love a similar guaranteed pension for similar contributions, as would most of the 1,800,000 in the private sector.

1.)Of course the typical public servant pays less than that amount, but the typical public servant gets a lot LESS of a pension! (BTW I'm glad you now agree that the typical public servant earns less than €966/ week)
2.)If they retire on a much higher figure,then there contributions will rise as pay rises.
3.) Where has it been worked out before that its not enough? I've shown that if I could opt out of the scheme, my contributions would earn me a very, very good pension fund. This is a fact. I can't believe you are even trying to dispute this. You Can't! FACT!
3.) Why not extend it to the general population? I wouldn't have a problem with that! All you would need to do then is make enough PRSI contributions, followed by pension contributions and then a pension levy!:)

grahamo

Count Dooku wrote: »

Pension is not too high, contributions are too low
A lot pension fund lost about 50% of their value and will lose more, spending pensions money on their salaries.
I think that pension levy must be doubled as price for state guarantee…

If a private pension fund lost 50% of its value, then the problem would then lie with the broker for investing unwisely! How is this the public sector's fault?
However, its MORE than likely that the fund will recover in the long term.
Prove to me showing links, or facts and figures that contributions are now too low!

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

Public service peoples contributions to pensions are not enough , no, and it helps leave a huge hole in the public finances. Even using your calculator above, a single person on the average public service wage pays only € 6236.34 a year towards their pension. The typical public servant is paying even less than that, even after the latest govt budget. Given that people are living longer, and retiring on a much higher figure than that, and getting a large lump sum, no, its not enough, not by a long shot, as has been worked out before. If it is, why not extend it to the general population ....I would love a similar guaranteed pension for similar contributions, as would most of the 1,800,000 in the private sector.

Somebody please tell me he's joking:D:D
Only €6236.34 a year?
Take into consideration that the PRSI pension will make up the majority, if not all of a pension. In my case I have a wife who stays home as a homemaker. Therefore My state pension will make up more than half of salary (plus I won't have 40 years contributions). This means I will receive a state pension ONLY. I will receive a lump sum based on years of service but I won't receive any public sector pension.
If I could opt out all the money I pay in would be in my pocket at 65. Its not a good deal for me;)

PS from the previous example why exactly do you think that a contribution of €6236 a year (over 40 years, which will rise over the years) towards a pension is not enough?

jimmmy

grahamo wrote: »

from the previous example why exactly do you think that a contribution of €6236 a year (over 40 years, which will rise over the years) towards a pension is not enough?

The pension contribution of 6236 is based on the average public sector wage. Many people do not serve 40 years service, and if they do they do not ( on average ) start at the public sector average wage of 966 per week. Considering the latge lump sums, the number of people taking early retirement, life expectancy, etc, and the fact public servise pensions are 50% of the grade when finishing work, it is clear and has breen worked out before that even 6236 euro - which is more than the typical public servant pays now - is not enough.

jimmmy

EF wrote: »

Canada looks pretty sweet!

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/pensions/psppg-corprfp-eng.asp

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/Pensions/guides/v103-eng.asp#pii1ex1

I cannot see statistics for public sector pay + pensions there in your links, which contain too much irrelevant information. As I said , find another country anywhere in the world where public service pensions ( never mind pay ) are as high ( if not higher ) as they are in Ireland ...if you come up with statistics on Canada, then please share them.

kippy

jimmmy wrote: »

The pension contribution of 6236 is based on the average public sector wage. Many people do not serve 40 years service, and if they do they do not ( on average ) start at the public sector average wage of 966 per week. Considering the latge lump sums, the number of people taking early retirement, life expectancy, etc, and the fact public servise pensions are 50% of the grade when finishing work, it is clear and has breen worked out before that even 6236 euro - which is more than the typical public servant pays now - is not enough.

You're lump sum and annual pension are worked out on years service. The public service pensions ONLY work out well for those who have done their forty years. This is the argument many PS workers make who havent done their 40 years.
If you do 40 years you get 40/80 of your index linked final salary as pension, if you do 20 years you get 20/80. I think this reflects the amount of money you have paid towards it surely? I BELIEVE but amnt 100% that the lump sum is also reflected in this length of service.

There is no doubt that if the PS schemes are a decent scheme with VERY little overhead that it should be extended to ALL workers HOWEVER, this would mean that EVERYONE in the private sector would HAVE NO OPTION but to be part of the scheme, pay a percentage for themselves, a percentage for their "Spouse and Child", a percentage for a pensions levy, and their normal PRSI contributions (which their final pension would have a bearing on). I would love to have those percentages off the top of my head but dont know of them fully.

I would have no problem with this to be honest and believe something like this will need to be done to keep the disasters that have occured for standard pensions schemes from happening again. The monies from this national pot should be put towards infrastructural products that the funds could gain income from again.

jimmmy

kippy wrote: »

I would have no problem with this to be honest and believe something like this will need to be done to keep the disasters that have occured for standard pensions schemes from happening again. The monies from this national pot should be put towards infrastructural products that the funds could gain income from again.

The government is already greatly subsidising the pensions for 300,000 / 370,000 odd public servants ....the country could not afford to give the same pensions to the 1,800,000 people in the private sector. If it could , it would be doing so already. Communist type economic thinking where everyone gets better pensions and pay than anywhere else in the world tends not to work too well in reality. When the govt gets involved in anything which the private sector can do, eg road building, house building, manufacturing, food etc, the private sector tends to provide a better service for less. This has been proven again and again around the world.

jimmmy

Count Dooku wrote: »

I seen thousands explanations why PS workers must have their high salaries
I don’t understand one thing
Why in most developed EU countries average salary of PS workers is less then average salary of private workers and they have working public services.
Where it has been mentioned first time
Industrial & Services* Public Sector Differential % of Ind&Serv

Denmark € 44,403 € 40,952 -€ 3,451 -7.77%
Germany € 35,421 € 33,905 -€ 1,516 -4.28%
Ireland € 35,746 € 45,643 € 9,897 27.69%
Netherlands € 36,195 € 36,038 -€ 157 -0.43%
Finland € 31,995 € 28,569 -€ 3,426 -10.71%
Britain € 38,036 € 35,189 -€ 2,847 -7.49%
BTW, Finland and Denmark are not cheaper then Ireland, therefore argument that Ireland overpriced will not be accepted

Still waiting on an answer to the above ; maybe on Monday during office hours someone will have time to explain it.....instead of continually evading it.;)

kippy

jimmmy wrote: »

The government is already greatly subsidising the pensions for 300,000 / 370,000 odd public servants ....the country could not afford to give the same pensions to the 1,800,000 people in the private sector. If it could , it would be doing so already. Communist type economic thinking where everyone gets better pensions and pay than anywhere else in the world tends not to work too well in reality. When the govt gets involved in anything which the private sector can do, eg road building, house building, manufacturing, food etc, the private sector tends to provide a better service for less. This has been proven again and again around the world.

And what about the other points I made in the post, would you care to address those?
I never asked the goverment to get involved in any of those things. I asked that pensions money be used to fund these things if the country WERE to go down the line of a standard pension for Public and Private sector workers. (which has a fair load of real issues were it to be implemented since there is a "pensions for all" in place already)

How much is it being "subsidised" already?
Are you sure you arent getting mixed up with the government having to subsidise the standard PRSI pension fund?
Isnt it a standard practice in many "private" pensions schemes of the employer matching employee contributions to the scheme?

I dont think your final comments are relevent in this discussion as that was NOT what I was advocating.

kippy

jimmmy wrote: »

Still waiting on an answer to the above ; maybe on Monday during office hours someone will have time to explain it.....instead of continually evading it.;)

I would think that the general cost base in this country is WAY too high.
Things which have pushed wages up in general are numerous in this country.
However a few of them:
1. The introduction of and almost annual increases in the minimum wage.
2. The (annual rises in inflation).
3. The increase in the dole.
4. The increase in the standard old age pension.

-ALL of which I believe to be far higher than any of the countries mentioned in that report.

I aint disagreeing with any of those rises or anything, just pointing out that as well as housing costs etc, all four of these have increased wages across all sectors.
Pay will need to be reduced to bring us back in line and in the public service that started with the pensions levy.
Kippy

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

The government is already greatly subsidising the pensions for 300,000 / 370,000 odd public servants .....

a.)I've shown I can put my contributions into a simple savings account and fund a pension with it.
b.)the 300 odd thousand public servants are still working. How can the govt. be subsidising their pensions if they are not receiving them yet?

jimmmy wrote: »

the country could not afford to give the same pensions to the 1,800,000 people in the private sector. If it could , it would be doing so already. .

I'm sure it could, Just pay your PRSI, pension contribution and then pension levy like these 300 odd thousand people are.

jimmmy wrote: »

Communist type economic thinking where everyone gets better pensions and pay than anywhere else in the world tends not to work too well in reality. .

WTF does this mean?:rolleyes: rich communists?

jimmmy wrote: »

When the govt gets involved in anything which the private sector can do, eg road building, house building, manufacturing, food etc, the private sector tends to provide a better service for less. This has been proven again and again around the world.

err.....You do realise that the govt. subcontracts road building etc. out to the private sector!!!!!
i.e The private sector does the work, the govt. pays them!

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

Still waiting on an answer to the above ; maybe on Monday during office hours someone will have time to explain it.....instead of continually evading it.;)

It was answered about 5 pages back I believe.I would answer it myself but I couldn't be arsed as it wouldn't register with you
...You are one to talk about evading questions..:D:D:D
You have evaded almost every point made in this thread. Your baseless generalisations are absolutely ridiculous:D.
You bring nothing to the debate..no facts or anything to back up your claims
I and many others have put facts forward
and you have ignored them all and carried on with the same tedious posts put forward again and again and again with monotonous regularity:rolleyes:
Mind you, I've had huge entertainment value from the thread. Almost everytime I see one of your posts it makes me laugh:D:D:D

Count Dooku

grahamo wrote: »

You bring nothing to the debate..no facts or anything to back up your claims

Can I contribute something, in order to protect my young padawan?

I think we need more fun:D:D

75 Bn for Public Service Pensions


http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0653/D.0653.200804240018.html

Guess who will pay it?

givyjoe81

Count Dooku wrote: »

Can I contribute something, in order to protect my young padawan?

I think we need more fun:D:D

75 Bn for Public Service Pensions


http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0653/D.0653.200804240018.html

Guess who will pay it?

Smashing smilies.. where can i get my hands on them?!

dresden8

Count Dooku wrote: »

Can I contribute something, in order to protect my young padawan?

I think we need more fun:D:D

75 Bn for Public Service Pensions


http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0653/D.0653.200804240018.html

Guess who will pay it?

Over 70 years?

grahamo

Count Dooku wrote: »

Can I contribute something, in order to protect my young padawan?

I think we need more fun:D:D

75 Bn for Public Service Pensions


http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0653/D.0653.200804240018.html

Guess who will pay it?

Did you even read it? That figure was over 70years :rolleyes:


'The figure represents a projection of aggregate pension payments that will be spread over perhaps 70 years. However, the more meaningful measure of public service pension costs is the actual annual outgo on pensions, which amounted to approximately €2.3 billion in 2007, or 1.3% of GDP. This annual outgo is projected to rise to 2.6% of GDP in 2050. The projected increase arises from the growth in public service employment in recent years and increasing longevity.'

K-9

grahamo wrote: »

Did you even read it? That figure was over 70years :rolleyes:


'The figure represents a projection of aggregate pension payments that will be spread over perhaps 70 years. However, the more meaningful measure of public service pension costs is the actual annual outgo on pensions, which amounted to approximately €2.3 billion in 2007, or 1.3% of GDP. This annual outgo is projected to rise to 2.6% of GDP in 2050. The projected increase arises from the growth in public service employment in recent years and increasing longevity.'

Jaysus €75 Billion is scarey in Big Red lettering.

Is our GDP now less than 2007 though?

I would think a percentage of tax revenue is a better measure at the minute. That would be about 7% of projected tax revenue.

Count Dooku

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Smashing smilies.. where can i get my hands on them?!

Uncut version of ICQ smiles

Count Dooku

dresden8 wrote: »

Over 70 years?

70 * 2.3 Bn /= 70 Bn
Unless goverment has a secret plan to reduce longevity of PS workers