I am paying more for somebodys public sector pension than my own Private pension

Count Dooku

K-9 wrote: »

Jaysus €75 Billion is scarey in Big Red lettering.

I promised some fun

K-9 wrote: »

Is our GDP now less than 2007 though?

Is it applied to public service pensions?

Count Dooku

grahamo wrote: »

Did you even read it? That figure was over 70years :rolleyes:


'The figure represents a projection of aggregate pension payments that will be spread over perhaps 70 years. However, the more meaningful measure of public service pension costs is the actual annual outgo on pensions, which amounted to approximately €2.3 billion in 2007, or 1.3% of GDP. This annual outgo is projected to rise to 2.6% of GDP in 2050. The projected increase arises from the growth in public service employment in recent years and increasing longevity.'

Somebody has problem with arithmetic – you, me or Brian Cowen.
2.3 Bn * 70 /= 75 Bn


Pension levy will give to government 1.4 Bn. Government now is not in position to save money. It means that current PS workers will pay pension for their predecessors. They will pay only 1.4 Bn out of 2.3 Bn. The rest will be paid by taxpayers

Count Dooku

grahamo wrote: »

It was answered about 5 pages back I believe.I would answer it myself but I couldn't be arsed as it wouldn't register with you

So far I seen only one attempt to answer, which doesn’t answer anything

molloyjh wrote: »

Again all you are doing here is taking a single number. What does that really tell you? That the Public Sector wage bill is too high? Fair enough I agree. Beyond that what does it say or suggest? Absolutely nothing. The reason(s) the wage bill is so high could be varied and this is what needs to be looked at, nothing else.

Another thing, the figures you have above would seem to contradict jimmys 966 a week. The problem here is both figures could be right. The complexity and potential pitfalls of trying to get salary information on so many people across so many organisations with so many different job roles and so many different definitions of every facet of the returns from organisations, some of which may not have the systems to be able to accurately report it, and then trying to group all of that info in a sensible apples to apples way is staggering. From returns to the Central Bank I used to do when in the Banking area I saw how hard it was to do this kind of thing among a small number of companies, and this study was across a large number of countries! So while the figures may differ they may both be right from certain points of view (a quote you may appreciate Count Dooku ).

First, I still don’t see any reason why Irish PS workers must be paid better then any other PS workers in EU.
Second, I see that Irish PS workers don’t deserve their high salaries if they are doing average salary survey by posting to employers stupid forms, rather then ask their colleagues in Revenue what is the total taxed payroll bill in Private sector and divide it by number of workers in Private sector.

Count Dooku

BTW, Retiring civil servants hit €1m jackpot

Under the new scheme, public servants earning €60,000 a year will get an immediate tax-free lump sum of €6,750 and a pension of €22,500 a year if they retire at 50 after 30 years’ service. This will be topped up with another tax-free payment of €60,750 when they reach 60.
Private-sector employees would need €1,021,680 in their pensions to secure the same deal, according to Gilhawley’s calculations, reported in the May issue of Irish Broker, the magazine of the Irish Brokers Association (IBA).
The scheme announced in the budget is considerably more generous than an existing early-retirement deal, which gives a tax-free lump sum of €55,485 and a pension of €14,040 a year to those retiring at 50 on salaries of €60,000 after 30 years service. Private-sector workers would need €658,000 in their pension pots to get a similar deal, according to Gilhawley’s calculations.

Everybody can do own math’s to see that we need to pay 200 Bn for PS pension over next 40 years

dresden8

Count Dooku wrote: »

BTW, Retiring civil servants hit €1m jackpot


Everybody can do own math’s to see that we need to pay 200 Bn for PS pension over next 40 years

Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's a trillion over the next 200 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Count Dooku

dresden8 wrote: »

Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's a trillion over the next 200 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ixoy

dresden8 wrote: »

Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's a trillion over the next 200 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

C'mon argue the point better.

I think it's a good deal but many civil/public servants I'm guessing wouldn't be able to avail of it at 50 as they could still have children at home/college etc and couldn't reduce their pay in half. So I'm wondering how many will avail of it and whether it'd be renewed next year (it's certainly not viable long time - it's merely postponing payments right now).

jimmmy

ixoy wrote: »

I think it's a good deal

It may be for the Retiring civil servants who hit the €1m jackpot, but not such a good deal for the Irish economy., and the bulk of people who support it.

ixoy wrote: »

but many civil/public servants I'm guessing wouldn't be able to avail of it at 50 as they could still have children at home/college etc

Thats not the point. I know some public servants who retired early and who have a great lifestyle, eg one who has just one kid in school. Not all public servants will retire early but thats not the point.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

It may be for the Retiring civil servants who hit the €1m jackpot, but not such a good deal for the Irish economy., and the bulk of people who support it...

Yet another repetition from jimmmy. The only novel thing about it is that he is repeating somebody else's content. When is he going to bring something new to the table?

jimmmy

When are you going to go for the ball rather than the player ? You have not made any attempt to answer the point.

jimmmy

Count Dooku wrote: »

So far I seen only one attempt to answer, which doesn’t answer anything



First, I still don’t see any reason why Irish PS workers must be paid better then any other PS workers in EU.
Second, I see that Irish PS workers don’t deserve their high salaries if they are doing average salary survey by posting to employers stupid forms, rather then ask their colleagues in Revenue what is the total taxed payroll bill in Private sector and divide it by number of workers in Private sector.

Good points, and like you I see no reason why Irish PS workers must be paid better then any other PS workers in EU, or in virtually all other countries in the world for that matter.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

When are you going to go for the ball rather than the player ?

You're not a player, jimmmy. You're more like a spectator shouting abuse from the sidelines. You bring nothing new.

And even your prejudices are inaccurate: you seem not to understand my position on public service pay and pensions.

jimmmy

There you go again PBreatnach ; when are you going to answer the points, rather than mount yet another personal attack on a poster / spectator shouting from the sideline or whatever you want to call others.
Please answer the points.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

There you go again PBreatnach ; when are you going to answer the points, rather than mount yet another personal attack on a poster / spectator shouting from the sideline or whatever you want to call others.
Please answer the points.

No.

I have said plenty about public service pay and pensions already, and said it on my own terms. You seem quite uninterested in what my views are, to the extent that you give me the impression that you don't know where I stand.

I choose not to get into "when did you stop beating your wife" discussions.

If you think my post above is a personal attack, refer it to the moderators.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have said plenty about public service pay and pensions already, and said it on my own terms.

True ; nobody claimed or even suggested otherwise.....but what has that got to do with you not answering points and questions ?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You seem quite uninterested in what my views are, to the extent that you give me the impression that you don't know where I stand.

I am quite interested in what your views are, as you are one of the people who is , as far as I know, receiving one of these public service pensions. Of course I know where you stand in general ; you do not want your pension reduced, or existing public service pay reduced as that would affect your pension. However, you have still to answer why must Irish PS workers be paid better then any other PS workers in EU, ( or in virtually all other countries in the world for that matter).....and what have you to say of the Retiring civil servants who hit the €1m jackpot ?
Direct answers please.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... I am quite interested in what your views are, as you are one of the people who is , as far as I know, receiving one of these public service pensions. Of course I know where you stand in general ; you do not want your pension reduced, or existing public service pay reduced as that would affect your pension...

That's right jimmmy: make it up.

Show your evidence for saying that about my position.

jimmmy

C'mon PBreathneach, answer the questions instead of evading yet again. If you do now want your pension reduced ( and existing public sector salaries reduced ) thats fine too. Just answer the questions.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

C'mon PBreathneach, answer the questions instead of evading yet again. If you do now want your pension reduced ( and existing public sector salaries reduced ) thats fine too.

I see. You don't know where I stand, and you can't be bothered finding out, even though I have said what I think.

Just answer the questions.

No. I am not answerable to you. In particular, I do not feel like answering to somebody who gives no sign of caring about truth or fairness -- and who does not present new material for us to consider.

jimmmy

Someone else asked the same questions which you evaded. Why must Irish PS workers be paid better then any other PS workers in EU, ( or in virtually all other countries in the world for that matter).....and what have you to say of the Retiring civil servants who hit the €1m jackpot ?
Just answer the questions.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy, why don't you just accept that you do not own this forum, that you have no authority over me, and that I find your posts tiresome?

If you did some proper work in this debate, then I might engage with your arguments.

In the meantime, I suggest that you find somebody else to provoke, because I am not easily knocked out of my stride.

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

Someone else asked the same questions which you evaded. Why must Irish PS workers be paid better then any other PS workers in EU, ( or in virtually all other countries in the world for that matter).....and what have you to say of the Retiring civil servants who hit the €1m jackpot ?
Just answer the questions.

We have all seen throughout this thread and other threads Jimmmy, that you aren't the slightest bit interested in anyone else's views. You come up with a baseless generalisation and expect everyone to accept that as fact.:rolleyes:

As for the average pay table, factor in that:

unscrupulous employers are hiring cheap labour plus the fact that the private sector includes lots of entry level jobs where no qualifications are needed.
It will also include part-time workers etc. As I said before I know Labourers who earn more than that average given.
Maybe this would be a more 'like for like' comparision
http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/isl/hudson.htm

The cost of living in this country has doubled in the last 10 years. ~Wages
haven't!

The private sector also gain financially from pay related bonuses,stock options, profit sharing schemes etc. (I'm know a lot of employers aren't generous enough to extend these bonuses to all workers but hey....You have been generalising all the way through the thread)

grahamo

As for the http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6302085.ece
'Jackpot' You are talking about it sounds like a good way of shedding workers. Isn't this what you want. You have been going on for months that the PS is overstaffed, overpaid, overeverything.
Fair enough, its gonna cost a few quid to offload these long term employees who opt for early retirement but what would it cost to make them redundant?
And they would still have to be paid a pension!
Whats your solution?

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If you did some proper work in this debate, then I might engage with your arguments.

Why not answer the questions ? They are not even my arguments ; they are related to points someone else made .

"Why must Irish PS workers be paid better then any other PS workers in EU, ( or in virtually all other countries in the world for that matter).....and what have you to say of the Retiring civil servants who hit the €1m jackpot ?"

ParkRunner

grahamo wrote: »

As for the http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6302085.ece
'Jackpot' You are talking about it sounds like a good way of shedding workers. Isn't this what you want.

It is already happening just from what I have seen in my own office. Quite a few have retired in the last few weeks and a good few others are taking career breaks. None are being replaced and we have lost a few staff also to social welfare. The workload has inevitably increased and pay is down about 7.5%.
Reform has come in through the back door by the feel of things but the media don't seem to have any real interest in this.

jimmmy

grahamo wrote: »

As for the http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6302085.ece
'Jackpot' You are talking about it sounds like a good way of shedding workers. Isn't this what you want. You have been going on for months that the PS is overstaffed, overpaid, overeverything.
Fair enough, its gonna cost a few quid to offload these long term employees who opt for early retirement but what would it cost to make them redundant?
And they would still have to be paid a pension!
Whats your solution?

Is that the best you can do to justify public service pay and pensions? Do you approve of the Retiring civil servants who hit the €1m jackpot ?

N.B. You know my solution, and the solution of many in the private sector in the country, to high public service pay and pensions.

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

Is that the best you can do to justify public service pay and pensions? Do you approve of the Retiring civil servants who hit the €1m jackpot ?

N.B. You know my solution, and the solution of many in the private sector in the country, to high public service pay and pensions.

What should we do Jimmmy? Throw them out on the street without a bean?
The only people that qualify for this are people with 30 years or more of service. These are people who would be close to retirement anyway. It would cost a lot of money to make these people redundant.
To gain the figures you are talking about you need to be earning 60k a year and the figures given are from an IBA member who is going to inflate the costs outrageously anyway to stop people with private pension funds asking why they don't get the same benefits. (Have you seen the amounts these brokers earn from peoples pensions?)

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Retiring civil servants who hit the €1m jackpot

That's five times you posted the same url (one you didn't even find yourself). Such a posting pattern is a tad tiresome.

[Are you posting on your employer's time?]

jimmmy

grahamo wrote: »

What should we do Jimmmy? Throw them out on the street without a bean?

I do not think highly paid public servants are people "without a bean ".... and surely even you could think of alternatives other than giving each of them a 1 million euro jackpot.

grahamo wrote: »

The only people that qualify for this are people with 30 years or more of service.

awwww...so the poor people with only 25 or 20 years service do not hit the 1 million euro jackpot...they have to wait and "serve" a few extra years ....awww

grahamo wrote: »

These are people who would be close to retirement anyway.

Not necessarily....some are aged only 50

grahamo wrote: »

It would cost a lot of money to make these people redundant.

2 wrongs do not make a right

grahamo wrote: »

To gain the figures you are talking about you need to be earning 60k a year

Many public servants at retirement age are, given average public sertor wage of 966 per week, plus the fact wages are naturally higher for those at retirement age that those young people starting their career.

Still, fair juice to you for trying to justify public sector pay / pensions anyway...its more than PBreatnach would do, although as far as I know he is retired and you are working.

Now, why must Irish PS workers be paid better then any other PS workers in EU, ( or in virtually all other countries in the world for that matter)?

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Many public servants at retirement age are, given average public sertor wage of 966 per week, plus the fact wages are naturally higher for those at retirement age that those young people starting their career.

here we go again!!:rolleyes:

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Now, why must Irish PS workers be paid better then any other PS workers in EU, ( or in virtually all other countries in the world for that matter)?

Jimmmy, why were public sector workers paid better than any other public sector in EU ?