I am paying more for somebodys public sector pension than my own Private pension

Palibito

There is no Public Sector Pension Fund, their employer just promises them a salary, super pension (and big lumpsum) and then pays it by taxing the rest of us.However now that their employer can't afford to live up to it's promise to them, it's borrowing to keep it up.. Super idea!, why didn't they think of that in Waterford Glass and SR Technics!! etc.. i.e. whenever we can't afford something just borrow!!! it's a no brainer!!. it's the same logic that ultimately collasped the property market.. If it's constitutionally ok for the state to borrow to retain jobs and pensionsfor some citizens then it's ok to borrow to support everyone's job. So more redundancies, no more pension contributions it's borrow, borrow, borrow..pary Ireland!!

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

Jimmmy, why were private sector workers paid better than any other private sector in EU over last 15 years or so?

Private sector workers were not paid better than any other private sector in EU over last 15 years or so....not by a long shot. Statistics relating to that are in this very thread if you care to look. Now, back to the subject of this thread. Why must Irish PS workers be paid better then any other PS workers in EU, ( or in virtually all other countries in the world for that matter)?

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Private sector workers were not paid better than any other private sector in EU over last 15 years or so....not by a long shot. Statistics relating to that are in this very thread if you care to look. Now, back to the subject of this thread. Why must Irish PS workers be paid better then any other PS workers in EU, ( or in virtually all other countries in the world for that matter)?

I already fixed my error in that post...I am asking you, your view on the question

grahamo

grahamo wrote: »

As for the average pay table, factor in that:

unscrupulous employers are hiring cheap labour plus the fact that the private sector includes lots of entry level jobs where no qualifications are needed.
It will also include part-time workers etc. As I said before I know Labourers who earn more than that average given.
Maybe this would be a more 'like for like' comparision
http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/isl/hudson.htm

The cost of living in this country has doubled in the last 10 years. ~Wages
haven't!

The private sector also gain financially from pay related bonuses,stock options, profit sharing schemes etc. (I'm know a lot of employers aren't generous enough to extend these bonuses to all workers but hey....You have been generalising all the way through the thread)

Here's my answer Jimmmy, you must have forget to read it.:rolleyes:

jimmmy

grahamo wrote: »

Here's my answer Jimmmy, you must have forget to read it.:rolleyes:

I saw your answer, but it does not answer the question : Now, why must Irish PS workers be paid better then any other PS workers in EU, ( or in virtually all other countries in the world for that matter)?

jimmmy

Count Dooku wrote: »

I seen thousands explanations why PS workers must have their high salaries
I don’t understand one thing
Why in most developed EU countries average salary of PS workers is less then average salary of private workers and they have working public services.
Where it has been mentioned first time
Industrial & Services* Public Sector Differential % of Ind&Serv

Denmark € 44,403 € 40,952 -€ 3,451 -7.77%
Germany € 35,421 € 33,905 -€ 1,516 -4.28%
Ireland € 35,746 € 45,643 € 9,897 27.69%
Netherlands € 36,195 € 36,038 -€ 157 -0.43%
Finland € 31,995 € 28,569 -€ 3,426 -10.71%
Britain € 38,036 € 35,189 -€ 2,847 -7.49%
BTW, Finland and Denmark are not cheaper then Ireland, therefore argument that Ireland overpriced will not be accepted

Nobody has answered this yet.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Nobody has answered this yet.

Another jimmmy repost. Does he never get bored with the same old stuff?

jimmmy

Please make some attempt at answering the question, instead of continually attacking others personally.

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

Nobody has answered this yet.

A rising cost of living over the last 10-15 years has led to increased wage demands,
The cost of living here has increased far more than in other European countries, The cost of a home here costs more, the cost of a weekly shop costs more, the cost of runnig a car is higher, the cost of almost everything is higher.
Everybody still working earns more than they did 15 year ago but the average worker is no better off in real terms as prices have risen more than wages.

BTW maybe you should add some of these average bonuses to those average pay scales.:)
http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Country=Ireland/Bonus

Palibito

That's a very important question and deserves an answer?

Palibito

jimmmy wrote: »

Please make some attempt at answering the question, instead of continually attacking others personally.

Yes, this is a serious question and deserves a serious answer

jimmmy

grahamo wrote: »

A rising cost of living over the last 10-15 years has led to increased wage demands,

The same as in most if not every country in the world ( yawn ).

grahamo wrote: »

the cost of runnig a car is higher

Proof please ? For example, the cost of petrol here over the past few years has been cheaper than our next door neighbour, the UK for example. The cost of running a car in Ireland justify our public servants being paid so much more here.

grahamo wrote: »

BTW maybe you should add some of these average bonuses to those average pay scales.:)
http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Country=Ireland/Bonus

Those bonuses do not apply to the vast vast majority of people in the private sector. Most of the 1,800,000 people in private sector do not get bonuses and are not IT managers etc.....most are lucky just to still have a job.....many people do not.

As another poster pointed out, Finland and Denmark are not cheaper then Ireland, therefore argument that Ireland overpriced will not be accepted. Households in Ireland do not pay property tax, and can and buy many things online from other EC countries. It does not justify why Irish PS workers must have their high salaries ?
And why in most developed EU countries is the average salary of PS workers less then the average salary of private workers and they have working public services ?

ParkRunner

jimmmy wrote: »

: Now, why must Irish PS workers be paid better then any other PS workers in EU, ( or in virtually all other countries in the world for that matter)?

Just out of curiosity are you referring to gross pay or net pay?

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

The same as in most if not every country in the world ( yawn ).

jimmy, if you cannot concede that ireland saw a major increase in cost of living, house prices, etc over last 15 years or so far more than in most other countries then we are never going to get anywhere

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Those bonuses do not apply to the vast vast majority of people in the private sector. Most of the 1,800,000 people in private sector do not get bonuses and are not IT managers etc.....most are lucky just to still have a job.....many people do not.

claims backed up with evidence as usual:rolleyes:

seems you can use terms like "vast, vast" "most" with impunity but the rest of us cannot:rolleyes:

2 can play at that game.....


Many of the 1,800,000 people in the private sector get bonuses, some a significant % of their base salary

many are IT managers

the vast, vast majority of the 1,800,000 still have a job and many have not taken any pay cut

ixoy

grahamo wrote: »

Everybody still working earns more than they did 15 year ago but the average worker is no better off in real terms as prices have risen more than wages.

Agreed - I certainly don't feel I've got much more purchasing power than I used to as all costs have gone up. A little bit sure, but nothing fancy. Seems many people never saw this Celtic Tiger.

BTW maybe you should add some of these average bonuses to those average pay scales.:)
http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Country=Ireland/Bonus

Maybe I'm missing something from that but it seems to give the median bonus figures there but doesn't state the percentage of workers who got those median bonuses. For the purposes of the debate - In my current job I got a bonus once and that was performance related rather than an automatic one.

jimmmy

ixoy wrote: »

Agreed - I certainly don't feel I've got much more purchasing power than I used to as all costs have gone up. A little bit sure, but nothing fancy. Seems many people never saw this Celtic Tiger.


Maybe I'm missing something from that but it seems to give the median bonus figures there but doesn't state the percentage of workers who got those median bonuses. For the purposes of the debate - In my current job I got a bonus once and that was performance related rather than an automatic one.

Agreed ... most people in the private sector are not IT managers etc....many work in shops, restaurants, hotels, factories, farms, workshops etc. ...and they do not get large bonuses. Most could not fly to OZ + have a few nights B+B thrown in for the equivalent of one weeks gross salary. Neither did our average public servant 15 years ago, not by a long shot. Neither can any other public servant from any other country in the world ( except Ireland now ) ...fly halfway around the world return for a holiday etc.

HollyB

jimmmy wrote: »

"Why must Irish PS workers be paid better then any other PS workers in EU, ( or in virtually all other countries in the world for that matter).....and what have you to say of the Retiring civil servants who hit the €1m jackpot ?"

Under the revised offer for early retirement, the hypothetical 50 year old civil servant on €60,000 a year after 30 years service is benefiting to the tune of €364,000 compared to what they would have received under the previous deal. However, if they choose to retire now because of the changes, their pension will be worth €37,500 a year less than the salary they would be paid if they continued to work. Over the ten years it would take them to get to age 60, they will cost €375,000 less. Their lump sum will be reduced by €22,500, and their pension will be three quarters of what it would have been, €7,500 a year less from age 60 onwards.

It's a more generous offer than the previous offer, I'm not denying that, but in the long run, since those who retire under this scheme will not be replaced, it will cost less money to send the 50 year old hypothetical civil servant on his or her way now, with a more generous pension, than it would be to retain them for the next 10 years.

Palibito

Riskymove wrote: »

claims backed up with evidence as usual:rolleyes:

seems you can use terms like "vast, vast" "most" with impunity but the rest of us cannot:rolleyes:

2 can play at that game.....


Many of the 1,800,000 people in the private sector get bonuses, some a significant % of their base salary

many are IT managers

the vast, vast majority of the 1,800,000 still have a job and many have not taken any pay cut

Its a simple issue - Public Sector workers had securtity and that was reflecetd in pay scales up untill benchmarking. Now that they are paid more than the private sector, they have traded in their security for pay so they must take pay cuts and job cuts (on statuatory redundancy terms) just like everyone else. We are all equal citizens, so enough whinging.

HollyB

By the way, surely the figures quoted for the value of the pensions have to be a bit high - if you were to invest €600,000 in a secure account, surely it would yield more than €14,000 a year.

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

The same as in most if not every country in the world ( yawn ).


Proof please ? For example, the cost of petrol here over the past few years has been cheaper than our next door neighbour, the UK for example. The cost of running a car in Ireland justify our public servants being paid so much more here.

Gimme a break! The dogs in the street know Ireland is one of the most expensive countries in Europe to buy a car thanks to the totally illegal VRT.
Motor tax is also more expensive, tyres are a lot more expensive, I could get a service done while over in the UK for half of what it costs here. Sure the price of petrol,is now almost on a par with the UK. If they tax it any more we'll all be heading North for petrol. Of course it costs more.
Higher prices mean higher wages in ALL sectors.

jimmmy wrote: »

Those bonuses do not apply to the vast vast majority of people in the private sector. Most of the 1,800,000 people in private sector do not get bonuses and are not IT managers etc.....most are lucky just to still have a job.....many people do not.

BS . A LOT of workers receive bonuses
You don't have to be an IT worker to get a bonus. I got bonuses working in engineering, I even got a couple of bonuses while I was on the building!

jimmmy wrote: »

As another poster pointed out, Finland and Denmark are not cheaper then Ireland, therefore argument that Ireland overpriced will not be accepted.

I haven't looked into cost of living in these countries but I can see they ARE cheaper if you want to buy a car!:)
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006812.shtml

jimmmy wrote: »

Households in Ireland do not pay property tax, and can and buy many things online from other EC countries. It does not justify why Irish PS workers must have their high salaries ??

No property tax yet but the cost of a house here is more expensive, then the rip-off stamp duty rate.

jimmmy wrote: »

And why in most developed EU countries is the average salary of PS workers less then the average salary of private workers and they have working public services ?

In other countries the (France and Germany for example) The workforce is heavily unionised (Proper order ). The private sector doesn't take the crap they take here.

I knew I would get the standard '1.8 million people answer'
The fact is Jimmmy that most workers do get bonuses, most of that 1.8 million are still working and most of that 1.8 million have not had to take a pay cut.

grahamo

Palibito wrote: »

Its a simple issue - Public Sector workers had securtity and that was reflecetd in pay scales up untill benchmarking. Now that they are paid more than the private sector, they have traded in their security for pay so they must take pay cuts and job cuts (on statuatory redundancy terms) just like everyone else. We are all equal citizens, so enough whinging.

The only ones whingeing are you and Jimmmy :D:D Nobody on here complains or moans about private sector

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

Agreed ... most people in the private sector are not IT managers etc....many work in shops, restaurants, hotels, factories, farms, workshops etc. ...and they do not get large bonuses. Most could not fly to OZ + have a few nights B+B thrown in for the equivalent of one weeks gross salary. Neither did our average public servant 15 years ago, not by a long shot. Neither can any other public servant from any other country in the world ( except Ireland now ) ...fly halfway around the world return for a holiday etc.

:D:D
Yes..exactly! But those people that work in shops, hotels,farms are doing entry level jobs which bring the overall average wage of the private sector DOWN!
and no...apart from being thrown a few bob at XMAS for a gargle they don't benefit from the wealth this country made over the last few years but the people in more senior positions have through bonuses, stock options, profit sharing etc. and the self employed got their whack out of it by jacking up prices and milking it for all it was worth:D (Fair play to them but you can't start blaming the public sector now its gone pear shaped):)

:D:D
Love the comedy bit thrown in about the trip to OZ and B&B on a weeks wage
(you are ranting again) Stick to the facts Jimmmy!!!!

jimmmy

grahamo wrote: »

The fact is Jimmmy that most workers do get bonuses, most of that 1.8 million are still working and most of that 1.8 million have not had to take a pay cut.

proof please ? I gave you c.s.o. statistics to back up my claims.

Do not forget many people in private sector work in shops, restaurants, hotels, factories, farms, workshops etc......and most do not get the public service average of 966 p.w. plus perks.

jimmmy

Palibito wrote: »

Its a simple issue - Public Sector workers had securtity and that was reflecetd in pay scales up untill benchmarking. Now that they are paid more than the private sector, they have traded in their security for pay so they must take pay cuts and job cuts (on statuatory redundancy terms) just like everyone else. We are all equal citizens, so enough whinging.

It will happen, do not worry...the current situation is unsustainable.

Noby has yet explained why in most developed EU countries is the average salary of PS workers less then the average salary of private workers and they have working public services ?

Count Dooku

grahamo wrote: »

We have all seen throughout this thread and other threads Jimmmy, that you aren't the slightest bit interested in anyone else's views. You come up with a baseless generalisation and expect everyone to accept that as fact.:rolleyes:

As for the average pay table, factor in that:

unscrupulous employers are hiring cheap labour plus the fact that the private sector includes lots of entry level jobs where no qualifications are needed.
It will also include part-time workers etc. As I said before I know Labourers who earn more than that average given.
Maybe this would be a more 'like for like' comparision
http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/isl/hudson.htm

I can play this game as well
http://www.finfacts.ie/finfactsblog/2007/06/irish-public-sector-pay-for-clerical.html

According to the CSO*, the pay levels of Clerical, Managerial and Industrial staff in the "Electricity, gas, steam and hot water supply" category which includes Bord Gais and the ESB, are substantially above other categories of workers.
The average pay of clerical employees (non-managerial) in Dec 2006 was €49,370 compared with €40,350 in "Manufacture of chemicals, chemical products and man-made fibres," which is dominated by multinationals such as Pfizer, Eli Lilly, Glaxo, Merck and others - a 22% pay gap.
The comparison between these two sectors is largely on payroll costs as large private sector companies generally provide pension coverage but the benefits would not compare with the public sector.
In other sectors, the disparity in benefits is much wider where there is no pension coverage.

grahamo wrote: »

The cost of living in this country has doubled in the last 10 years. ~Wages
haven't!

Is it only for PS workers?
BTW, we have deflation now, may be it is time to do Benchmarking 3

grahamo wrote: »

The private sector also gain financially from pay related bonuses,stock options, profit sharing schemes etc. (I'm know a lot of employers aren't generous enough to extend these bonuses to all workers but hey....You have been generalising all the way through the thread)

The private sector gained financially from pay related bonuses,stock options, profit sharing schemes etc.
Now it is in the past
What about new Benchmarking?

Count Dooku

grahamo wrote: »

Fair enough, its gonna cost a few quid to offload these long term employees who opt for early retirement but what would it cost to make them redundant?

In short terms cheaper, because lump sum is smaller, in long term more expensive, because you don't have to pay them pension until 65 (IMHO)

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... Most could not fly to OZ + have a few nights B+B thrown in for the equivalent of one weeks gross salary....

Can we please have something new from you?

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

proof please ? I gave you c.s.o. statistics to back up my claims.

Do not forget many people in private sector work in shops, restaurants, hotels, factories, farms, workshops etc......and most do not get the public service average of 966 p.w. plus perks.

Bollocks. I am pretty sure that you simply echoed an url provided by somebody else. And then you throw in "plus perks" as if the CSO included that in its report: that was deceptive when you first did it; after it was pointed out to you that the CSO said nothing about perks, to repeat the implication becomes dishonest.

And still we wait for something new from you...

Count Dooku

grahamo wrote: »

A rising cost of living over the last 10-15 years has led to increased wage demands,
The cost of living here has increased far more than in other European countries, The cost of a home here costs more, the cost of a weekly shop costs more, the cost of runnig a car is higher, the cost of almost everything is higher.

Finland is not cheaper...

grahamo wrote: »

BTW maybe you should add some of these average bonuses to those average pay scales.:)
http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Country=Ireland/Bonus

Good link




Why is so big difference between office administrator in public sector and office administrator in private sector?