I am paying more for somebodys public sector pension than my own Private pension

grahamo

Count Dooku wrote: »

Dou you think that PAYE workers are slaves of PS unions and cannot say anything about high taxes to keep number permanent members of PS unions the same?
If PS workers can unite against ordinary people, why private sector workers cannot unite against high taxes for public services?

I would attempt to answer that but I honestly don't know what you are on about??? It makes no sense!!:)

Count Dooku wrote: »

Please remind me, why do we have Financial Regulator and Central Bank?
Are the private companies?
Why they didn’t do anything to prevent property bubble?
Public services more responsible for this mess, then bankers, because PS had enough power to stop them in 2007, but they didn’t do it in order to save benchmarking

Ridiculous accusation!:D Do you even know what you are talking about?:D

grahamo

This is descending into a fecking farce
The posting in broken english is comedy genius!:)

Count Dooku

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That is a preposterous suggestion. While some public servants are influential in the determination of public policy, it is the politicians who set the tone and make the big decisions. The property bubble was enabled (in some measure created) by political decisions, not by administrative ones.

Central Banks and Financial Authorities are independent from government.
It is written in article 108 of EC Treaty.
Jean-Claude Trichet is the boss of John Hurley, but not Brian Cowen
Department of Finance can only increase/decrease salaries for them.
It means that public services had enough power to prevent property bubble and they are also responsible for this mess.

Count Dooku

grahamo wrote: »

I would attempt to answer that but I honestly don't know what you are on about??? It makes no sense!!:)

Ridiculous accusation!:D Do you even know what you are talking about?:D

I am not surprised
Public services in this country don’t know anything
They are worrying only about their payslips and nothing else

grahamo

Count Dooku wrote: »

and Irish public services are paying huge money for job, which any girl from street can do for half of price…
I don’t see any difference between office administrator with 3 years experience and 20 years experience and I don’t think that loyalty for state as employer must be rewarded

So experience counts for nothing?
Any girl from street can do a job for half price?:D
Q.How many half decent workers, in both the private and public sector are willing to stay on a starting wage their whole lives?
A. None. Experienced workers are paid more and they are worth more FACT!:rolleyes:

Remember that when you grow up and go into the workforce!:)

grahamo

Count Dooku wrote: »

I am not surprised
Public services in this country don’t know anything
They are worrying only about their payslips and nothing else

Groan!:rolleyes:
Got any links or facts to back that up? :rolleyes:

Count Dooku

grahamo wrote: »

Groan!:rolleyes:
Got any links or facts to back that up? :rolleyes:

Riskymove wrote: »

I think you you missed my point or forgot you are on the jimmy thread....no need for stats or proof...

P. Breathnach

Count Dooku wrote: »

Central Banks and Financial Authorities are independent from government.
It is written in article 108 of EC Treaty.
Jean-Claude Trichet is the boss of John Hurley, but not Brian Cowen
Department of Finance can only increase/decrease salaries for them.
It means that public services had enough power to prevent property bubble and they are also responsible for this mess.

At least you are more creative than jimmmy!

The property bubble was largely enabled by a failure of regulation. The Financial Regulator is answerable to a board appointed by the Minister for Finance.
http://www.financialregulator.ie/about-us/structure/Pages/authority.aspx

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

Jimmy, you still refuse to answer my post looking for your view on this question?

Apologies for the delay, I cannot spend most of the normal office working hours on the internet, ( unlike some of the pro-public service posters here. ).

If you want my views on that question, Riskymove, ( why is Ireland unique in that the average salary of PS workers here is considerably more than then the average salary of private workers ...and other countries they have working public services ) ...its because of the cosy arrangment and mis-management between the government and the public service unions, at massive expense to the economy and most taxpayers.

Count Dooku

P. Breathnach wrote: »

At least you are more creative than jimmmy!

I promised some fun

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The property bubble was largely enabled by a failure of regulation. The Financial Regulator is answerable to a board appointed by the Minister for Finance.
http://www.financialregulator.ie/about-us/structure/Pages/authority.aspx

Correct
But after appointment, members of the Authority are independent from Minister of Finance and must serve to Ireland, not to Fianna Fail.
Otherwise, we have Fianna Fail servants instead of public servants and majority of PS workers must be wiped out together with FF.
BTW, Central bank is more independent from Government and central bank is responsible for financial stability
http://www.centralbank.ie/frame_main.asp?pg=abt_whowhat.asp&nv=abt_nav.asp

the Central Bank, which has responsibility for monetary policy functions, financial stability, economic analysis, currency and payment systems, investment of foreign and domestic assets and the provision of central services; and
the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority (Financial Regulator), which is an autonomous entity within the CBFSAI and has responsibility for financial sector regulation and consumer protection.

Do we have stability now?
I have an impression that David McWilliams was doing better economic analysis then public services.

ixoy

Central Bank anyway (not sure about the Financial Regulators) are, I'm told, funded differently - they're not directly from the government coffers in the same way as public/civil servants. They're a bit like some semi-state corporations in that respect - I'm open to correction.

Anyone else want to try a like-for-like comparison? We're seeing exagerrations on both sides here from and I'd be interested in seeing more grounded examples. I'm lucky in the position I can make a direct comparison of roles and wages but surely there must be others?

Count Dooku

ixoy wrote: »

Central Bank anyway (not sure about the Financial Regulators) are, I'm told, funded differently - they're not directly from the government coffers in the same way as public/civil servants. They're a bit like some semi-state corporations in that respect - I'm open to correction.

So far, I found only that Central Bank is fully funded from budget and financial regulator is like semi-state body, with 50% of income from private companies.
http://www.centralbank.ie/data/AnnRepFiles/Statement%20of%20Accounts.pdf

Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority — Statement of Income and
Expenditure for 2006
Income
Industry Funding
Credit Institutions 7,423 6,713
Insurance Undertakings 4,854 4,270
Intermediaries 2,888 2,954
Securities and Investment Firms 1,445 1,438
Collective Investment Schemes and Service
Providers 3,529 3,963
Credit Unions 1,298 1,057
Moneylenders 158 109
Approved Professional Bodies 20 38
Exchanges 101 95
Bureaux de Change/Moneytransmitters 28 19
Total Funding 21,744 20,656
Less: Provision/Write Offs 350 290
Net Industry Funding (i) 21,394 20,366
Excess of Income over Expenditure from
previous year 2,110 1,686
Subvention from Central Bank and Financial
Services Authority of Ireland (ii) 24,364 20,364
47,868 42,416
Other Income (iii) 2,887 1,003
Total Income 50,755 43,419

Funding of Central bank must be agreed with ECB, ie it can work only in one direction to increase, but not reduce. With this exception, central bank workers are proper public servants with state funded pensions.
http://www.examiner.ie/Business/idojcweyid/rss2/

ixoy wrote: »

Anyone else want to try a like-for-like comparison? We're seeing exagerrations on both sides here from and I'd be interested in seeing more grounded examples. I'm lucky in the position I can make a direct comparison of roles and wages but surely there must be others?

Do you think it will change anything?
Taxpayers cannot pay wages and pensions to PS workers anyway.
This is a rock solid fact.
Even after introduction of new income taxes rates government will have only 13 Bn from income taxes.
I don’t see any reason why PAYE workers must pay more and get less, only because some people were lucky and managed to sign contracts with state.

kippy

jimmmy wrote: »

Apologies for the delay, I cannot spend most of the normal office working hours on the internet, ( unlike some of the pro-public service posters here. ).

If you want my views on that question, Riskymove, ( why is Ireland unique in that the average salary of PS workers here is considerably more than then the average salary of private workers ...and other countries they have working public services ) ...its because of the cosy arrangment and mis-management between the government and the public service unions, at massive expense to the economy and most taxpayers.

Jimmy, I've given you a few pointers as to why wages IN GENERAL in this country are higher than elsewhere a few posts back.
1. Introduction of and annual increase of minimum wage which has had the effect of driving up ALL wages.
2. Increase in social welfare payments.
3. Increase in standard PRSI based pension.

2 and 3 have almost doubled in the past decade.
1 also appears to have effected private industry particularly badly.
These three things have a direct impact on ALL wages. The neat and tidy taxation system with its numerous loopholes have also ensured relative take home pay rises also.

Theres no doubt the unions and the government avoided major strikes and increased pay for the past 10 years, that have somewhat overtaken certain like for like private sector pay, however, the pension levy, has almost pulled that back in again, and I am full sure the next three/four budgets will have brought public service wages below what can be achieved in the private sector at the time. If that happens I know where my next career move will be.
These "perks" that you bring up all the time, can and are part of numerous private sector contracts of employment and some of the ones you speak about are long since gone or on the way out.
If you took some time to come up with decent logical solutions and arguments you might get more attention on this forum, at the moment your illogical posts with no solutions mentioned at all (you'll find I have numerous posts on various fora with cost cutting measures in the PS and also options for creating employment in the private sector.
I am neither private or public sector centric, I make my employment decisions based on any number of factors. At the moment Public sector is slightly ahead of Private sector, that is rapidly changing for my field (IT)
Kippy

kippy

Count Dooku wrote: »

So far, I found only that Central Bank is fully funded from budget and financial regulator is like semi-state body, with 50% of income from private companies.
http://www.centralbank.ie/data/AnnRepFiles/Statement%20of%20Accounts.pdf

Funding of Central bank must be agreed with ECB, ie it can work only in one direction to increase, but not reduce. With this exception, central bank workers are proper public servants with state funded pensions.
http://www.examiner.ie/Business/idojcweyid/rss2/



Do you think it will change anything?
Taxpayers cannot pay wages and pensions to PS workers anyway.
This is a rock solid fact.
Even after introduction of new income taxes rates government will have only 13 Bn from income taxes.
I don’t see any reason why PAYE workers must pay more and get less, only because some people were lucky and managed to sign contracts with state.

It amazes me sometimes the absolute small mindedness of some people, not necesarily you.
A couple of points again.
1. Neither sector can function without the other. Thats a fact.
2. PAYE workers include Public sector workers.
3. Some people were lucky? Are you for real? You dont think that some people made career decisions and choices based on what suited them at the time. The people who "got lucky" were those who happened to be in the right sectors early in the boom. That was generally private sector tradesmen who got into property.

I have yet to see ANY concrete suggestion of how to deal with the problems of this country from ANY of the PS bashers on this thread.

jimmmy

kippy wrote: »

I have yet to see ANY concrete suggestion of how to deal with the problems of this country from ANY of the PS bashers on this thread.

Obviously one way to save the country billions is to bring public sector pay and pensions more in to line. To even suggest this does not make one a "PS basher" ....even Eddie Hobbs has suggested that as something which has to be done. Why do the PS people ( who the rest of us pay our taxes to support ) attack people and call them PS bashers, when they come up with solutions to improve the economy ? Has this fact escaped you completely?

jimmmy

kippy wrote: »

Jimmy, I've given you a few pointers as to why wages IN GENERAL in this country are higher than elsewhere a few posts back.
1. Introduction of and annual increase of minimum wage which has had the effect of driving up ALL wages.
2. Increase in social welfare payments.
3. Increase in standard PRSI based pension.

That still does not explain why in most developed EU countries average salary of PS workers is less then average salary of private workers. As mentioned before : Where it has been mentioned first time
Industrial & Services* Public Sector Differential % of Ind&Serv

Denmark € 44,403 € 40,952 -€ 3,451 -7.77%
Germany € 35,421 € 33,905 -€ 1,516 -4.28%
Ireland € 35,746 € 45,643 € 9,897 27.69%
Netherlands € 36,195 € 36,038 -€ 157 -0.43%
Finland € 31,995 € 28,569 -€ 3,426 -10.71%
Britain € 38,036 € 35,189 -€ 2,847 -7.49%
BTW, Finland and Denmark are not cheaper then Ireland, therefore argument that Ireland overpriced will not be accepted

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

That still does not explain why in most developed EU countries average salary of PS workers is less then average salary of private workers. As mentioned before : Where it has been mentioned first time
Industrial & Services* Public Sector Differential % of Ind&Serv

Denmark € 44,403 € 40,952 -€ 3,451 -7.77%
Germany € 35,421 € 33,905 -€ 1,516 -4.28%
Ireland € 35,746 € 45,643 € 9,897 27.69%
Netherlands € 36,195 € 36,038 -€ 157 -0.43%
Finland € 31,995 € 28,569 -€ 3,426 -10.71%
Britain € 38,036 € 35,189 -€ 2,847 -7.49%
BTW, Finland and Denmark are not cheaper then Ireland, therefore argument that Ireland overpriced will not be accepted

Still nothing new from jimmmy. Reposting somebody else's contribution.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Still nothing new from jimmmy. Reposting somebody else's contribution.

Thats why I wrote " as mentioned before".

You have still to even make an attempt at properly answering the question.

kippy

jimmmy wrote: »

Obviously one way to save the country billions is to bring public sector pay and pensions more in to line. To even suggest this does not make one a "PS basher" ....even Eddie Hobbs has suggested that as something which has to be done. Why do the PS people ( who the rest of us pay our taxes to support ) attack people and call them PS bashers, when they come up with solutions to improve the economy ? Has this fact escaped you completely?

Jimmy,
You like stating the obvious, lets expand on it a bit please.
You mention solutions and give one. Please be more specific........How much more do you reckon the average public sector worker should be cut in relation to their pay and how much MORE should the contribute to their pension?
Do you not think the "pensions levy" is the first step in this "bringing into line"?
To suggest options to help solve the countries current issues makes does not make one a PS basher, to consistently focus on the public sector and NOT take on board ANYTHING said that is different from your opinion makes you a public sector basher.
I've heard Eddie Hobbs come up with plenty options all over the place, not just in relation to Public Sector pay.
You dont support me, by the way, I provide a service to you which you pay for. Same was as any person in the private sector is "supported" by others in the country.
Kippy

kippy

jimmmy wrote: »

That still does not explain why in most developed EU countries average salary of PS workers is less then average salary of private workers. As mentioned before : Where it has been mentioned first time
Industrial & Services* Public Sector Differential % of Ind&Serv

Denmark € 44,403 € 40,952 -€ 3,451 -7.77%
Germany € 35,421 € 33,905 -€ 1,516 -4.28%
Ireland € 35,746 € 45,643 € 9,897 27.69%
Netherlands € 36,195 € 36,038 -€ 157 -0.43%
Finland € 31,995 € 28,569 -€ 3,426 -10.71%
Britain € 38,036 € 35,189 -€ 2,847 -7.49%
BTW, Finland and Denmark are not cheaper then Ireland, therefore argument that Ireland overpriced will not be accepted

I aint going to argue with your well researched statistics, however surely the figure of 45,643 which is quoted there is significantly lower than the oft quoted average public sector wage of €966 per week. Can you please advise where that figure came from and which is correct?
Can you also quote the figures of all countries across europe? I find it VERY seclective that the Irish figure is the only on in that group which supports your current argument.
Kippy

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Thats why I wrote " as mentioned before"...

So re-posting the same stuff is okay so long as you say so? Even when it is the fourth time you have re-posted it?

Do you know what perseveration is?

kindajaded

kippy wrote: »

I aint going to argue with your well researched statistics, however surely the figure of 45,643 which is quoted there is significantly lower than the oft quoted average public sector wage of €966 per week. Can you please advise where that figure came from and which is correct?
Can you also quote the figures of all countries across europe? I find it VERY seclective that the Irish figure is the only on in that group which supports your current argument.
Kippy

some of those figures are avialable on the eurostat website:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/eurostat/home/

you can join for free and access the data from various surveys including the 'labour costs survey 2004' which the figures for pay for 'industrial&services' are taken from.
it gets tricky thereafter -
i tried to pull up 'public sector' figures from these data but they are not broken down like that.
you can make your own tables using the online programme in the site and select what you want out of it.
i made a few but can't transport them into the thread - but it's openly available to anyone to fiddle around with.

the figures that come closest to the ones quoted here are arrived at when 'health,education and social' services are taken and compared to 'industrial&serivces'. it must be noted that 'industrial&serices' means employees and does not include the self employed - business owners etc - it is a survey of pay and employment costs.
there is a link to the metadata that has all sorts of caveats about the lack of consistency etc of how they were collected.

having said that there are some differences in the profile of countries.
portugal is more like ireland.
in ireland costs of catering staff have been outsourced in alot of hospitals for years - not so in france.
then again class sizes are smaller in germany - are we paying fewer teachers more?
you can see these differences in the data on the % of the labour force employed by the PS - it varies widely
then look at the pay for craftspeople (largely private) - much higher in ireland in 2006 than any of those other countries

comparing the 2006 data for 'crafts&related trade workers' you will find that we are paying vastly more to this predominantly private sector group than the countries mentioned above

then compare 'professionals' in 2006 and irish professionals come out worse than any of the countries mentioned. this would include the very large proportion working in the PS or by contract with the PS.

the problem with this kind of table is that it can be constructed and used by people who have an agenda.
no one here giving out about the PS seems to consider the fact that although there will be cycles and arguments about pay the people who ulitmately win from keeping pay in general low are the rich.

i am all in favour of flexibility around pay and conditions and am expecting another hit or two or three - but when incomplete data are presented as fact and inaccurate assessments made of the inequalities and adjustments that need to made i simply do not trust the people making them. i think alot of PS people are like me.
thus we pay union fees, everything gets slowed down and there is always a fight. and in the long run it is not the ordinary workers who will benefit from this.

if anyone can transport the data from eurostat that'd be cool.

kippy

kindajaded wrote: »

some of those figures are avialable on the eurostat website:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/eurostat/home/

you can join for free and access the data from various surveys including the 'labour costs survey 2004' which the figures for pay for 'industrial&services' are taken from.
it gets tricky thereafter -
i tried to pull up 'public sector' figures from these data but they are not broken down like that.
you can make your own tables using the online programme in the site and select what you want out of it.
i made a few but can't transport them into the thread - but it's openly available to anyone to fiddle around with.

the figures that come closest to the ones quoted here are arrived at when 'health,education and social' services are taken and compared to 'industrial&serivces'. it must be noted that 'industrial&serices' means employees and does not include the self employed - business owners etc - it is a survey of pay and employment costs.
there is a link to the metadata that has all sorts of caveats about the lack of consistency etc of how they were collected.

having said that there are some differences in the profile of countries.
portugal is more like ireland.
in ireland costs of catering staff have been outsourced in alot of hospitals for years - not so in france.
then again class sizes are smaller in germany - are we paying fewer teachers more?
you can see these differences in the data on the % of the labour force employed by the PS - it varies widely
then look at the pay for craftspeople (largely private) - much higher in ireland in 2006 than any of those other countries

comparing the 2006 data for 'crafts&related trade workers' you will find that we are paying vastly more to this predominantly private sector group than the countries mentioned above

then compare 'professionals' in 2006 and irish professionals come out worse than any of the countries mentioned. this would include the very large proportion working in the PS or by contract with the PS.

the problem with this kind of table is that it can be constructed and used by people who have an agenda.
no one here giving out about the PS seems to consider the fact that although there will be cycles and arguments about pay the people who ulitmately win from keeping pay in general low are the rich.

i am all in favour of flexibility around pay and conditions and am expecting another hit or two or three - but when incomplete data are presented as fact and inaccurate assessments made of the inequalities and adjustments that need to made i simply do not trust the people making them. i think alot of PS people are like me.
thus we pay union fees, everything gets slowed down and there is always a fight. and in the long run it is not the ordinary workers who will benefit from this.

if anyone can transport the data from eurostat that'd be cool.

Thanks for the synopsis.
Well worth the read. Fair play to you.
Kippy

Count Dooku

kippy wrote: »

It amazes me sometimes the absolute small mindedness of some people, not necesarily you.

I just wanted to show that public sector was involved into creation of this mess as well.
I hope that nobody from opposite side will complain anymore that it was pure private sector fault

kippy wrote: »

A couple of points again.
1. Neither sector can function without the other. Thats a fact.

Not true. Public sector can function without private sector if country has enough natural resources to sell. Private sector can survive without any public sector, but not for long.

kippy wrote: »

2. PAYE workers include Public sector workers.

lets replace “PAYE workers” by “PAYE workers from private sector”

kippy wrote: »

3. Some people were lucky? Are you for real? You dont think that some people made career decisions and choices based on what suited them at the time. The people who "got lucky" were those who happened to be in the right sectors early in the boom. That was generally private sector tradesmen who got into property.

If it is true, why in 2006, 80,000 applicants applied for 3900 public service jobs?
https://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2007/apr/01/open-access-to-public-service-jobs/

In 2006 the Public Appointments Service, through Publicjobs. ie, attracted some 80,000 applicants to apply for jobs throughout the public service. These positions ranged from clerical officers, junior diplomats and legal professionals in the civil service to engineers and senior managers in local authorities to hospital consultants and administrators in the health sector.

250,100 in June 2006
254,000 in June 2007
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2006/psempearn_q22006.pdf
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2007/psempearn_q22007.pdf



Don’t forget that in 2006, smart EA could afford BMW5'06 after 3 months of hard work

kippy wrote: »

I have yet to see ANY concrete suggestion of how to deal with the problems of this country from ANY of the PS bashers on this thread.

Cut number of workers,
Don’t touch salaries who left,
Pay them minimum statutory packages
Give them bonds for rest of the sum, which will be paid, as soon as Ireland will have proficit again
Don’t touch frontline staff on low salaries
Concentrate on clerks and managers with 15+ years of experience

Of coarse, don’t mess with NAMA, don’t help bank shareholders, get rid of FF and Labours etc
But this is a separate story

kippy

Count Dooku wrote: »

I just wanted to show that public sector was involved into creation of this mess as well.
I hope that nobody from opposite side will complain anymore that it was pure private sector fault


Not true. Public sector can function without private sector if country has enough natural resources to sell. Private sector can survive without any public sector, but not for long.


lets replace “PAYE workers” by “PAYE workers from private sector”


If it is true, why in 2006, 80,000 applicants applied for 3900 public service jobs?
https://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2007/apr/01/open-access-to-public-service-jobs/


250,100 in June 2006
254,000 in June 2007
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2006/psempearn_q22006.pdf
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2007/psempearn_q22007.pdf



Don’t forget that in 2006, smart EA could afford BMW5'06 after 3 months of hard work




Cut number of workers,
Don’t touch salaries who left,
Pay them minimum statutory packages
Give them bonds for rest of the sum, which will be paid, as soon as Ireland will have proficit again
Don’t touch frontline staff on low salaries
Concentrate on clerks and managers with 15+ years of experience

Of coarse, don’t mess with NAMA, don’t help bank shareholders, get rid of FF and Labours etc
But this is a separate story

There are a few small minded Public servants and private sector workers who will blame the opposite sector for the issues of late. Again, I would hope that is a small number. The lower echelons of both sectors have had a minor part to play. The big boys from both sectors have made and benefited from various decisions which were good for them and a lot of us in the short term, but in the long term are proving to be poorly done.
So you are calling the 3900 people who got those jobs "lucky"? Luck in jobs really is something you make for yourself by being well qualified and able to get through an interview.
Your point on estate agents is agreeing with mine on the "lucky" side of things. That can be applied to any trade, maybe me calling it luck is a bit shortsighted but its as "lucky" as anyone in the public sector.
To your final points, which need significant fleshing out. There really isnt enough information in any of those points to even scratch the surface of what needs to be done. At least it is an attempt however, better than nothing.

ParkRunner

Count Dooku wrote: »

If it is true, why in 2006, 80,000 applicants applied for 3900 public service jobs?
https://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2007/apr/01/open-access-to-public-service-jobs/

Wow to select 3,900 people out of 80,000 must have been a difficult choice. Some of the best talent in the country were bound to be amongst those 80,000 and given the inevitable attrition rate, only the very best must have been successful!

kindajaded

Count Dooku wrote: »

I just wanted to show that public sector was involved into creation of this mess as well.
I hope that nobody from opposite side will complain anymore that it was pure private sector fault


Not true. Public sector can function without private sector if country has enough natural resources to sell. Private sector can survive without any public sector, but not for long.


lets replace “PAYE workers” by “PAYE workers from private sector”


If it is true, why in 2006, 80,000 applicants applied for 3900 public service jobs?
https://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2007/apr/01/open-access-to-public-service-jobs/


250,100 in June 2006
254,000 in June 2007
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2006/psempearn_q22006.pdf
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2007/psempearn_q22007.pdf



Don’t forget that in 2006, smart EA could afford BMW5'06 after 3 months of hard work




Cut number of workers,
Don’t touch salaries who left,
Pay them minimum statutory packages
Give them bonds for rest of the sum, which will be paid, as soon as Ireland will have proficit again
Don’t touch frontline staff on low salaries
Concentrate on clerks and managers with 15+ years of experience

Of coarse, don’t mess with NAMA, don’t help bank shareholders, get rid of FF and Labours etc
But this is a separate story

you have put a link in here to cso charts that show annual increases in salary of 5.5% and 5.7% for PS pay in 2006 and 2007. shocking.

please take a look at the eurostat link:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=tsieb020
which shows a year on year increase in GDP for ireland of 5.7% in 2006 and 6% in 2007.

then please scan back to the 3 years before benchmarking (i remember them well) where the increases in GDP were:
1999: 10.7%
2000: 9.2%
2001: 5.8%

also cast an eye on the year on year growth in GDP in the intervening years

who has been 'PAYEing' who?


i actually agree with some of your solutions though they are a bit basic and blunt but i don't know why you think the labour party are to blame.
i also do not think that you are entitled to the labour of others for free.
20 guesses who you'll be voting (if not standing) for.

Rob67

I just wanted to show that public sector was involved into creation of this mess as well.
I hope that nobody from opposite side will complain anymore that it was pure private sector fault

Very true, I must agree with you on that, there is a shared responsibility involved here. However, as has been pointed out by the 'opposite side', it seems the Public Sector must be hung out to dry as a way of assuaging the understandable anger that is felt by many citizens. It is an unfair mentality to adopt against one particular sector of society, especially when they were not wholly responsible.

Not true. Public sector can function without private sector if country has enough natural resources to sell. Private sector can survive without any public sector, but not for long.

Simply not true, neither sector can exist without the other. Unless, as per the first part of the statement, everyone is a member of the public sector, but doesn't that mean we end up with a communist system, which has proven to be a failure.

Cut number of workers,
Don’t touch salaries who left,
Pay them minimum statutory packages
Give them bonds for rest of the sum, which will be paid, as soon as Ireland will have proficit again
Don’t touch frontline staff on low salaries
Concentrate on clerks and managers with 15+ years of experience

Possibly one of the more sensible thoughts here, well done. But who do you cut free? Who do you keep? How do you decide? I don't disagree with the concept but how do you enact it? Remember, that those who are made redundant will go on the dole queue, so the state still ends up paying for them, just like it does for everyone else who has the misfortune to end up there. What do you propose to do in those circumstances?

Rob67

jimmmy wrote: »

Obviously one way to save the country billions is to bring public sector pay and pensions more in to line. To even suggest this does not make one a "PS basher" ....even Eddie Hobbs has suggested that as something which has to be done. Why do the PS people ( who the rest of us pay our taxes to support ) attack people and call them PS bashers, when they come up with solutions to improve the economy ? Has this fact escaped you completely?

Funnily enough, I heard Eddie Hobbs on Newstalk with Eamon Keane (I think) a couple of weeks and he actually said that he wasn't looking to cut PS pay but to increase efficiencies and redeploy staff, unfortunately, I missed the rest of what he said as I was busy working...

Sadly Jimmmy, you have yet to come up with any reasonable solutions so far, except to quote some rather dubious sources (friend of a mate I may have met once, etc), please feel free to continue though, because you really are funny.

Count Dooku

kippy wrote: »

There are a few small minded Public servants and private sector workers who will blame the opposite sector for the issues of late. Again, I would hope that is a small number.

So why do you want join them?
Look what you wrote below

kippy wrote: »

So you are calling the 3900 people who got those jobs "lucky"? Luck in jobs really is something you make for yourself by being well qualified and able to get through an interview.

One page ago it was that nobody wanted to go to public services.
Now we have that public sector was hiring best people in Ireland
Do you want me to bash PS workers again?
I can tell a lot about low qualification and professional level some of PS staff.

kippy wrote: »

To your final points, which need significant fleshing out. There really isnt enough information in any of those points to even scratch the surface of what needs to be done. At least it is an attempt however, better than nothing.

My main point is that redundancies must target high-paid clerical staff in non-critical departments and 10% of clerical staff on 40K+ in critical departments.
They must get only 4 weeks redundancy payments, the rest will paid when country will recover.
Plus managers, which will be not able to provide the same level of service after that must also be fired on the same conditions

Could save up to 25%