I am paying more for somebodys public sector pension than my own Private pension

kippy

Count Dooku wrote: »

So why do you want join them?
Look what you wrote below


One page ago it was that nobody wanted to go to public services.
Now we have that public sector was hiring best people in Ireland
Do you want me to bash PS workers again?
I can tell a lot about low qualification and professional level some of PS staff.




My main point is that redundancies must target high-paid clerical staff in non-critical departments and 10% of clerical staff on 40K+ in critical departments.
They must get only 4 weeks redundancy payments, the rest will paid when country will recover.
Plus managers, which will be not able to provide the same level of service after that must also be fired on the same conditions

Could save up to 25%

Sorry, I am not quite getting you......
I pointed out that there are people from either sector who will blame the other sector for the problems. I dont see how that would imply I wanted to join either of them.....
What I wrote below was implying that I couldn't see where the luck you were talking about was coming from.
I dont really understand your reference to two pages ago. I would assume that the reason the PS is hiring the best of 80000 is because they are attracting people of that calibre, since that year. Perhaps wages became equal to that of similiar private sector jobs at that stage in order to attract people of this calibre.
So you can tell a lot about qualifications of public staff, is this insinuating that there are idiots working in the Public service? I have no doubt there are, I could work with a few myself. Your point please?
High paid clerical staff.....are you aware of the clerical salary grade? Define high paid.
No problems re the statutory redundancy or indeed the bond you speak about.
How are you going to tackle the increasing unemployment queue?

Count Dooku

kindajaded wrote: »

you have put a link in here to cso charts that show annual increases in salary of 5.5% and 5.7% for PS pay in 2006 and 2007. shocking.

please take a look at the eurostat link:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=tsieb020
which shows a year on year increase in GDP for ireland of 5.7% in 2006 and 6% in 2007.

then please scan back to the 3 years before benchmarking (i remember them well) where the increases in GDP were:
1999: 10.7%
2000: 9.2%
2001: 5.8%

also cast an eye on the year on year growth in GDP in the intervening years

Number of houses built

42,349 1998
46,512 1999
49,812 2000
52,602 2001
57,695 2002
68,819 2003
76,954 2004
80,957 2005
93,419 2006
78,027 2007

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/StatisticsandRegularPublications/HousingStatistics/FileDownLoad,2277,en.XLS
As you can see, it wasn’t real GDP growth
It was increase due property bubble and it was very unwise for government take a long term obligations based on artificial short term growth

kindajaded wrote: »

i actually agree with some of your solutions though they are a bit basic and blunt but i don't know why you think the labour party are to blame.
i also do not think that you are entitled to the labour of others for free.

Labours always demanded pay increase and they didn’t care where government will take money

kindajaded wrote: »

20 guesses who you'll be voting (if not standing) for.

If Enda Kenny will leave FG, you can narrow your guesses

Count Dooku

kippy wrote: »

So you can tell a lot about qualifications of public staff, is this insinuating that there are idiots working in the Public service? I have no doubt there are, I could work with a few myself. Your point please?

Interview is a lottery and you need luck to pass through interview
I did a lot of them and I know how difficult to recognize right person

kippy wrote: »

So you are calling the 3900 people who got those jobs "lucky"? Luck in jobs really is something you make for yourself by being well qualified and able to get through an interview.

kippy wrote: »

High paid clerical staff.....are you aware of the clerical salary grade? Define high paid.

Sorry, my fault
Too many legends about high salaries in public sector
€23,232 - €24,324- €25,411 - €26,502 - €27,595- €28,684 - €29,772 - €30,857 - €31,950- €33,037- €34,130 – €36,189
Lets cut last two
But don’t forget about managers. Average salary for manager in public sector is around 55K. Plus a lot of them are not good performers.
10,000 of them will give more half of billion

kippy wrote: »

How are you going to tackle the increasing unemployment queue?

If government will continue to increase taxes in order to keep number of public workers, then unemployment queue will grow even more, but only from private sector
Still, 204 is less then "966"

kippy

Count Dooku wrote: »

Interview is a lottery and you need luck to pass through interview
I did a lot of them and I know how difficult to recognize right person





Sorry, my fault
Too many legends about high salaries in public sector
€23,232 - €24,324- €25,411 - €26,502 - €27,595- €28,684 - €29,772 - €30,857 - €31,950- €33,037- €34,130 – €36,189
Lets cut last two
But don’t forget about managers. Average salary for manager in public sector is around 55K. Plus a lot of them are not good performers.
10,000 of them will give more half of billion




If government will continue to increase taxes in order to keep number of public workers, then unemployment queue will grow even more, but only from private sector
Still, 204 is less then "966"

An interview is a lottery? Are you for real?

So just cut everyone on 34 or 36k? (these are not the guys who are ANYWHERE near the average being touted in this and other threads)
How many managers are in the Public sector and what do they manage? (I believe your aim here is correct (these are the guys on the big over average wages in the PS, but it must be in areas that can be lost)
204 is less than the 966.
Do you want to spend a bit more time analyzing that statement because basic level at which you put it forth would make out that the government are saving 762 euros for EVERY public service worker it puts into the dole queue.
A bit of logic and common sense here please.

Count Dooku

Rob67 wrote: »

Very true, I must agree with you on that, there is a shared responsibility involved here. However, as has been pointed out by the 'opposite side', it seems the Public Sector must be hung out to dry as a way of assuaging the understandable anger that is felt by many citizens. It is an unfair mentality to adopt against one particular sector of society, especially when they were not wholly responsible.

You need to blame Labours and PS unions who started this war
If they wouldn’t protest and strike against pension levy, nobody would look into PS workers payslips and compare with their own after all tax increases
Labours will continue to play this game. This is why they don’t want to propose anything about optimization in public sector.
And FF also realized that this war is exactly what they need, this is why Brian Cowen doesn’t want to do any cuts in Public sector

Palibito

Rob67 wrote: »

Let me guess... you are either related to Jimmmy or his clone?

OR... you work for Jimmmy and continue the public sector bashing by taking the night shift for him?

Not trying to be insulting or anything, big apology if I have, but it just seems so....coincidental, y'know? You and Jimmmy sound so alike, it is kind of strange to find two people who are so harmonious in thought and approach to the subject. I suppose it will make the 'debate' become double the fun now. Please don't fall into the same pattern as Jimmmy though (repeat, rehash, repeat, rehash, etc, etc). Have fun!:)

Before I forget:

One of the main reasons that no-one complains about the private sector is because everyone got tired of it during the 'Rip-off Ireland' era... After all everyone (public and private sectors) got shafted in some fashion during the alleged good years probably and continue to do so to a certain extent i.e. Private Sector banking. But, hey, I'm just generalising here!:D:D:D

Let me guess?.. you are a CS?.. think it's them little green guys with the teeth dat all u CS rappers append to ya messages..

But you is all paranoid man!.. I does not know Jimmy, never met, spoke, emailed or txt'd the dude..

but you have already concocted a conspiricy theory having heard the same argument twice!!.. It used to be bout ten times but now just two people saying the same thing amounts to a conspiricy theory in the CS.

P.S. I don't think the banks can be categorised as Private Sector!. Perverse Sector maybe, but the comforting thing is that they are regulated by the nice people in the CS!! and didn't they do a lovely job!

kindajaded

Count Dooku wrote: »

Number of houses built

42,349 1998
46,512 1999
49,812 2000
52,602 2001
57,695 2002
68,819 2003
76,954 2004
80,957 2005
93,419 2006
78,027 2007

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/StatisticsandRegularPublications/HousingStatistics/FileDownLoad,2277,en.XLS
As you can see, it wasn’t real GDP growth
It was increase due property bubble and it was very unwise for government take a long term obligations based on artificial short term growth



Labours always demanded pay increase and they didn’t care where government will take money


If Enda Kenny will leave FG, you can narrow your guesses

The nature of the increase in incomes is not the point - but since you are obfuscating by way of the meaning of GDP please see this link:
http://www.cso.ie/newsevents/pr_hbs2004-2005Prelim.htm

look for the table that breaks it down to average household disposable income - increased by over 50% from 1999/2000 to 2004/2005.

don't forget that the unions also secured wage increases for private sector workers - whether that was ill-advised or whether the increases they sought were excessive is not any reflection on one section of workers any more than it is on another.

and terribly sorry but i do not recall fine gael doing anything to stop any of it. they could not have stopped benchmarking without stopping the rest of the bubble because they could not explain to people what was happening and they did not even make much of a stab at trying to.

Rob67

Count Dooku wrote: »

You need to blame Labours and PS unions who started this war
If they wouldn’t protest and strike against pension levy, nobody would look into PS workers payslips and compare with their own after all tax increases
Labours will continue to play this game. This is why they don’t want to propose anything about optimization in public sector.
And FF also realized that this war is exactly what they need, this is why Brian Cowen doesn’t want to do any cuts in Public sector

I can blame them, true, but it can also be said that the media is just as culpable by fanning sensationalist flames through 'worst case scenario' reporting, and,of course, those in charge of running the country. I am a public sector worker and I have seen both sides of the public/private divide and I have been personally subjected to negative remarks and insults, firstly with ridicule for taking the job and very low pay (at that time) i.e. the: 'you'd never catch me doing that, I am better than that' mentality, secondly, with anger and derision for having my job in the first place and the: 'sure, don't ye have it handy and us ordinary people paying your way' thinking and other insults that should not be repeated. Luckily, for one individual, my professionalism, constant training and general demeanour prevented me from making a more forceful reply other than a glance and a walk on by.
However, I do support cuts in staff in admin roles, increased efficiencies/ time management, mandatory redeployment of staff to where they are needed.

Increases in hours to the basic working week without extra pay just to show national commitment to get the country moving again? It may be a whimsical thought, but I feel it may help in areas such as social welfare offices. (I expect a backlash on that one)

As I pointed out earlier though, those people who could be made redundant will end up on the dole and by saying that paying €204 instead of €966 is misleading, even if the average pay was that, and I'm not wholly convinced of it, by the time you take into account the persons circumstances you could still end up paying out close to it in mortgage/ rent allowance, dependants allowances and other such allowances on top of the basic payment.

Rob67

Palibito wrote: »

Let me guess?.. you are a CS?.. think it's them little green guys with the teeth dat all u CS rappers append to ya messages..

But you is all paranoid man!.. I does not know Jimmy, never met, spoke, emailed or txt'd the dude..

but you have already concocted a conspiricy theory having heard the same argument twice!!.. It used to be bout ten times but now just two people saying the same thing amounts to a conspiricy theory in the CS.

P.S. I don't think the banks can be categorised as Private Sector!. Perverse Sector maybe, but the comforting thing is that they are regulated by the nice people in the CS!! and didn't they do a lovely job!

No, I'm not 'CS', I was just having a laugh, I don't subscribe to, or concoct, conspiracy theories but methinks you doth protest too much!!;)

Yes, the Financial Regulator screwed up, as far as I can see, due to not having personnel with the required banking skills to properly monitor those institutions (I may be wrong on that, so its open to correction), but the banks did hide their true fiscal positions and lent too much to a greedy segment of the population, thereby making a global recession, which still would have had an impact on Ireland, hugely magnified by the aforementioned actions of what should have been above reproach banking systems and methods of financial control. Both sides are equally guilty, as far as I'm concerned, in that regard.

kindajaded

Rob67 wrote: »

I can blame them, true, but it can also be said that the media is just as culpable by fanning sensationalist flames through 'worst case scenario' reporting, and,of course, those in charge of running the country. I am a public sector worker and I have seen both sides of the public/private divide and I have been personally subjected to negative remarks and insults, firstly with ridicule for taking the job and very low pay (at that time) i.e. the: 'you'd never catch me doing that, I am better than that' mentality, secondly, with anger and derision for having my job in the first place and the: 'sure, don't ye have it handy and us ordinary people paying your way' thinking and other insults that should not be repeated. Luckily, for one individual, my professionalism, constant training and general demeanour prevented me from making a more forceful reply other than a glance and a walk on by.
However,
I do support cuts in staff in admin roles, increased efficiencies/ time management, mandatory redeployment of staff to where they are needed.

Increases in hours to the basic working week without extra pay just to show national commitment to get the country moving again? It may be a whimsical thought, but I feel it may help in areas such as social welfare offices. (I expect a backlash on that one)

As I pointed out earlier though, those people who could be made redundant will end up on the dole and by saying that paying €204 instead of €966 is misleading, even if the average pay was that, and I'm not wholly convinced of it, by the time you take into account the persons circumstances you could still end up paying out close to it in mortgage/ rent allowance, dependants allowances and other such allowances on top of the basic payment.

not whimsical at all rob - it's already happening but yet again at a slower pace than would have been possible with reasonable negotiation and demands from the employer.
longer working days to cut down unsociable hours payments, extra hours in the week and reduced overtime rates are all in the pipeline.
there are plenty of PS workers (me included) who already work more than our contract hours without claiming for anything unrostered - and it can add up to quite a few hours in the month.

Palibito

jimmmy wrote: »

That still does not explain why in most developed EU countries average salary of PS workers is less then average salary of private workers. As mentioned before : Where it has been mentioned first time
Industrial & Services* Public Sector Differential % of Ind&Serv

Denmark € 44,403 € 40,952 -€ 3,451 -7.77%
Germany € 35,421 € 33,905 -€ 1,516 -4.28%
Ireland € 35,746 € 45,643 € 9,897 27.69%
Netherlands € 36,195 € 36,038 -€ 157 -0.43%
Finland € 31,995 € 28,569 -€ 3,426 -10.71%
Britain € 38,036 € 35,189 -€ 2,847 -7.49%
BTW, Finland and Denmark are not cheaper then Ireland, therefore argument that Ireland overpriced will not be accepted

I live between here and Copenhagen and taking the 11am flight in the morning.. Denmark is VASTLY more exensive than Ireland. €12 for a chicken in Netto (big supermarket chain) here you can get a cooked one for €6.00 in Supervalue.. €30 to fix a bicycle puncture in Denmark and twice the price for a bicycle in Denmark than in Ireland... and cars.. crazy price in Denmark!!!!! I have a friend there who works for the Foreign Ministry (CS) and he chuckles when I tell him that in Ireland the CS are paid more than the Privare Sector.. He says "Ireland sounds like a funny place!"

Greggas explained to me that in Denmark the reason that the Public Sector workers (like him) have a lower salary than the Private Sector is that they have job security. He is a chartered accountant but they are so logical compared to us.

Other thing is that when I arrive at Kastrup airport tomorrow, I have a choice of metro, train (both with airport terminals) plus a bus service that is atomic clock accurate.. Their metro is amazing, fast, efficient and completely unmanned..

So Ireland is relatively cheap but our services and transport infrastructure are embarrasing. They used to ask me about the Celtic Tiger and now I try to avoid the subject

kindajaded

Palibito wrote: »

I live between here and Copenhagen and taking the 11am flight in the morning.. Denmark is VASTLY more exensive than Ireland. €12 for a chicken in Netto (big supermarket chain) here you can get a cooked one for €6.00 in Supervalue.. €30 to fix a bicycle puncture in Denmark and twice the price for a bicycle in Denmark than in Ireland... and cars.. crazy price in Denmark!!!!! I have a friend there who works for the Foreign Ministry (CS) and he chuckles when I tell him that in Ireland the CS are paid more than the Privare Sector.. He says "Ireland sounds like a funny place!"

Greggas explained to me that in Denmark the reason that the Public Sector workers (like him) have a lower salary than the Private Sector is that they have job security. He is a chartered accountant but they are so logical compared to us.

Other thing is that when I arrive at Kastrup airport tomorrow, I have a choice of metro, train (both with airport terminals) plus a bus service that is atomic clock accurate.. Their metro is amazing, fast, efficient and completely unmanned..

So Ireland is relatively cheap but our services and transport infrastructure are embarrasing. They used to ask me about the Celtic Tiger and now I try to avoid the subject

thanks to whoever first pointed the way to eurostat! it's great to have something concrete to combat this sort of 'i paid double the price for a chicken' arguments! please see the following link, page 140, comparing purchasing power in the e.u. countries - denmark 139.4 ppps to ireland 125.4 ppps.
i think you was ripped off for that chicken!!
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-CD-07-001/EN/KS-CD-07-001-EN.PDF

Palibito

kindajaded wrote: »

thanks to whoever first pointed the way to eurostat! it's great to have something concrete to combat this sort of 'i paid double the price for a chicken' arguments! please see the following link, page 140, comparing purchasing power in the e.u. countries - denmark 139.4 ppps to ireland 125.4 ppps.
i think you was ripped off for that chicken!!
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-CD-07-001/EN/KS-CD-07-001-EN.PDF

Well get off yer ass and go out to the real world instead of lookin at statistics... lies damm lise and stat...

Tell me the name of a supermarket in Denmark and the price of a chicken?.... go onn or are you chicken?

kindajaded

Palibito wrote: »

Well get off yer ass and go out to the real world instead of lookin at statistics... lies damm lise and stat...

Tell me the name of a supermarket in Denmark and the price of a chicken?.... go onn or are you chicken?

argh ha ha you are really making me laugh:D:D honestly
i think they saw you coming in denmark
what those figures mean is that you should be paying around 7 euros for your chicken!!
maybe you should start shopping in donnybrook fair
and bring spare bicycle tubes!!
soory, don't want to be mean but those are the figures - for 2008 - compiled by our eurocrats..

Palibito

kindajaded wrote: »

argh ha ha you are really making me laugh:D:D honestly
i think they saw you coming in denmark
what those figures mean is that you should be paying around 7 euros for your chicken!!
maybe you should start shopping in donnybrook fair
and bring spare bicycle tubes!!
soory, don't want to be mean but those are the figures - for 2008 - compiled by our eurocrats..

Seems you shop based on statistics..

Hi Tesco, statistically I should be paying €7 for your chickens... No F off
they are €12.00 .. No statistically speaking based on statistics I will just pay you a stastical figure of €7 because Im a statistic freak!

Of course sir.. statistically speaking you are right so .... do you think
Lies dam lies and statistichickens ?

Can you emerge from your hideout and tell me the name of just one Danish main supermarket and the price of a chicken there today without hiding behind statistics?

guinnessdrinker

Palibito, you're funny! You remind me of Jimmmy

Rob67

kindajaded wrote: »

not whimsical at all rob - it's already happening but yet again at a slower pace than would have been possible with reasonable negotiation and demands from the employer.
longer working days to cut down unsociable hours payments, extra hours in the week and reduced overtime rates are all in the pipeline.
there are plenty of PS workers (me included) who already work more than our contract hours without claiming for anything unrostered - and it can add up to quite a few hours in the month.

Sorry, didn't realise that. We are facing similar cuts in certain payments as well. As for the working hours, I'm exempted from the minimum hours as I'm required to be available 24/7 as part of my service requirements. The joys of service to the State!!

kindajaded

Palibito wrote: »

Seems you shop based on statistics..

Hi Tesco, statistically I should be paying €7 for your chickens... No F off
they are €12.00 .. No statistically speaking based on statistics I will just pay you a stastical figure of €7 because Im a statistic freak!

Of course sir.. statistically speaking you are right so .... do you think
Lies dam lies and statistichickens ?

Can you emerge from your hideout and tell me the name of just one Danish main supermarket and the price of a chicken there today without hiding behind statistics?

sorry just can't let it go - see link :
http://shoponjob.dk/koel/kod-fisk.html?p=2 (3rd column second row)
what looks very like a chicken for 46,95 dkk = 6 euros 30 cents
try ordering online from your hotel room:D

Count Dooku

kippy wrote: »

An interview is a lottery? Are you for real?

So just cut everyone on 34 or 36k? (these are not the guys who are ANYWHERE near the average being touted in this and other threads)
How many managers are in the Public sector and what do they manage? (I believe your aim here is correct (these are the guys on the big over average wages in the PS, but it must be in areas that can be lost)
204 is less than the 966.
Do you want to spend a bit more time analyzing that statement because basic level at which you put it forth would make out that the government are saving 762 euros for EVERY public service worker it puts into the dole queue.
A bit of logic and common sense here please.

If they are so high qualified as you described before, they easily can get jib in private sector. Government can pay them dole for 3 years, it will compensate them lower initial salaries.
If government will manage to reduce PS workforce by 10% it will give around 2 Bn of savings.
Of coarse, maximum salary in public services must be reduced to 127,000, but I don’t except much from this.

Count Dooku

kindajaded wrote: »

The nature of the increase in incomes is not the point - but since you are obfuscating by way of the meaning of GDP please see this link:
http://www.cso.ie/newsevents/pr_hbs2004-2005Prelim.htm

look for the table that breaks it down to average household disposable income - increased by over 50% from 1999/2000 to 2004/2005.

It was actually 36.4%(from your link)
If you will subtract 28% inflation, you will have only 8%.
Plus a lot of money came from refinancing of houses. Significant part came back to property market, but some of those money has been used as disposable income as well.

Count Dooku

kindajaded wrote: »

and terribly sorry but i do not recall fine gael doing anything to stop any of it. they could not have stopped benchmarking without stopping the rest of the bubble because they could not explain to people what was happening and they did not even make much of a stab at trying to.

I know, but I don’t have any other choice .
Ireland has misbalanced political system with 4 left parties, 1 center-left, 1 “center-right” and Greens.
PD was FF project to take some votes from FG, but they never were proper right wing party.

kindajaded

Count Dooku wrote: »

It was actually 36.4%(from your link)
If you will subtract 28% inflation, you will have only 8%.
Plus a lot of money came from refinancing of houses. Significant part came back to property market, but some of those money has been used as disposable income as well.

you are wrong! you are looking at 'household expenditure' - not 'disposable income' - that's the second table and it is over 50% - actually aroud 48% urban and over 60% rural

and what a ridiculous attempt re inflation - EVERYONE was subject to inflation - don't try to compare PS income-inflation to private income +inflation

kindajaded

Count Dooku wrote: »

It was actually 36.4%(from your link)
If you will subtract 28% inflation, you will have only 8%.
Plus a lot of money came from refinancing of houses. Significant part came back to property market, but some of those money has been used as disposable income as well.

actually i believe you are being deliberately misleading.

P. Breathnach

Count Dooku wrote: »

... Of coarse, maximum salary in public services must be reduced to 127,000, but I don’t except much from this.

I'd be interested in the views of medical consultants on this suggestion.

Count Dooku

kindajaded wrote: »

actually i believe you are being deliberately misleading.

Not more then you
You trying to proof that Ireland is rich and PS workers deserves their high salaries, I am trying to argue you that Ireland had only illusion
First – Tax revenue
Lets have a look on Capital Gains Tax plus Capital Acquisitions Tax plus Stamp Duties
In 2006 it was 7.4Bn out of 45Bn total tax receipts.
In 2007 it was 7.8 out of 49 Bn.
In 2008 it lowered to 2.4 bn out of 42bn.
In 2009 it will be 0.8 out of 34 Bn.
This source of income is gone for long time. Government only had illusion that property bubble will continue forever.
Links
http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/budget/budget2008/Whitepaper08.pdf
http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/pressreleases/2006/bc0154.pdf
http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2009/excheqmar09.pdf

Second – GDP
Real Irish GDP is very low

Ireland has a high level of FDI as a percentage of GDP. 75%, (GNP 85%) compared to OECD average of 25%, Italy 20%, Spain 35%
IDA supported FDI account for 60% of national Exports (€92b out of €153b);

http://www.ija.ie/uploads/downloads/japan_ireland/Irish_Economic_Brief_2009-01.pdf
http://www.ija.ie/uploads/downloads/japan_ireland/Irish_Economic_Brief_2009-01.doc
It means that as soon as labours will increase corporate tax in order to pay high salaries to public sector, Ireland will lose 75% of GDP in one day. It means that PS salaries will have to be slashed by 7% as well.
FDI is not most reliable source of income and they can leave very quickly as Dell did it recently.
About income growth in rural areas – 80% of FDI went outside of M50. A lot of them settled in relatively rural areas.
It means that government cannot expect any significant increase in tax receipts in foreseeable future and has to learn how to live only with 34Bn income.
Choice is very small – reduce welfare or payroll bill for public services. Everything is bad.
I personally would prefer to stop any overseas aid and save 0.7 Bn, but I understand that lefties and NGO’s will not allow to do it.

Count Dooku

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'd be interested in the views of medical consultants on this suggestion.

If they will not accept, they will be refused to use state funded facilities…
But first I would like to start from Mary Harney advisors and force them to pay all damage, what they did

jimmmy

Palibito wrote: »

I live between here and Copenhagen and taking the 11am flight in the morning.. Denmark is VASTLY more exensive than Ireland. €12 for a chicken in Netto (big supermarket chain) here you can get a cooked one for €6.00 in Supervalue.. €30 to fix a bicycle puncture in Denmark and twice the price for a bicycle in Denmark than in Ireland... and cars.. crazy price in Denmark!!!!! I have a friend there who works for the Foreign Ministry (CS) and he chuckles when I tell him that in Ireland the CS are paid more than the Privare Sector.. He says "Ireland sounds like a funny place!"

Greggas explained to me that in Denmark the reason that the Public Sector workers (like him) have a lower salary than the Private Sector is that they have job security. He is a chartered accountant but they are so logical compared to us.

Other thing is that when I arrive at Kastrup airport tomorrow, I have a choice of metro, train (both with airport terminals) plus a bus service that is atomic clock accurate.. Their metro is amazing, fast, efficient and completely unmanned..

So Ireland is relatively cheap but our services and transport infrastructure are embarrasing. They used to ask me about the Celtic Tiger and now I try to avoid the subject

Interesting, and having been to Denmark too ( as well as most of Europe ), I agree with you.

The public service people still have not explained why they should be paid more than the private sector, when in the rest of Europe ( and indeed most of the world ) its the other way around. The public sector people here in Ireland have not explained why they should be the highest paid public sector in the world, as far as is known. Maybe they are too busy working now during the day to explain.

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

Interesting, and having been to Denmark too ( as well as most of Europe ), I agree with you.

The public service people still have not explained why they should be paid more than the private sector, when in the rest of Europe ( and indeed most of the world ) its the other way around. The public sector people here in Ireland have not explained why they should be the highest paid public sector in the world, as far as is known. Maybe they are too busy working now during the day to explain.

I see as usual you are not too busy, Jimmmy:D

BTW, I'm now on my lunch break!

Maybe I can have a go. (again):rolleyes:
I've got a degree plus I'm a qualified tradesman with 20-odd years experience.
I'm good at what I do and I work hard!
I can only speak for myself here but I took a paycut to move to the job I'm in.
I can say that for my position (Mech engineer) in the private sector this is what I would earn:
http://www.midasireland.com/SurveyCDVersion.htm

Just to help you out look for the section that says MALE with 16-20 years experience!:rolleyes:

This is the salary in the public sector. (I'm not civil service but the salaries are roughly the same.)

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:jesERH5W-qcJ:www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp%3FDocID%3D865+engineers+salary+in+the+civil+service+ireland&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk

As you can see Jimmmy, the pay is LESS in the public sector.
but the reason the salary level is where it is ? It is to attract suitably qualified people to the position. Again I can only speak for myself and the particular job I do but if the public sector salary for my position is the highest in the world then the private sector equivalent must also be the highest in the world! (I know for a fact it isn't ) therefore it follows the public sector equivalent job would have to at least try and compete!!
You could try and get people off the street to do the job for half price as Count Dooku (who sounds a bit like Borat :D) suggests but the reality is that they simply wouldn't be able to do the job!!!:rolleyes:
Sorry Lads!

The pros of working public sector?
I'm not on call anymore. I now work Mon-Fri.
As I have children I get to spend more time with them
(Mind you I'm sure Jimmmy and his band of wind-up merchants will have some problem with these two points above, I've no doubt he will try and tell me they are 'perks of the job')

The cons of public sector?
I've lost my Free Health Insurance
I've lost my Free life insurance.
I've lost my 2 (count them) bonuses per year
I get paid less!

PS before any of the wind up merchants start weighing in with the retarded 'Why don't you go back to the private sector' comments, In a few years time I more than likely will be back in the private sector
Also, I've been to Denmark and most of the EU member states and other European countries I can say the most expensive country I visited was Switzerland. I found the scandinavian countries (not just Denmark) to be more expensive than Ireland but the whole of the rest of Europe to be cheaper than Ireland.

Count Dooku

grahamo wrote: »

I see as usual you are not too busy, Jimmmy:D

BTW, I'm now on my lunch break!

Me too

grahamo wrote: »

Maybe I can have a go. (again):rolleyes:
I've got a degree plus I'm a qualified tradesman with 20-odd years experience.
I'm good at what I do and I work hard!
I can only speak for myself here but I took a paycut to move to the job I'm in.
I can say that for my position (Mech engineer) in the private sector this is what I would earn:
http://www.midasireland.com/SurveyCDVersion.htm

From your link

Male 16-20 years-€74,793€75,278€59,028

grahamo wrote: »

Just to help you out look for the section that says MALE with 16-20 years experience!:rolleyes:

This is the salary in the public sector. (I'm not civil service but the salaries are roughly the same.)

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:jesERH5W-qcJ:www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp%3FDocID%3D865+engineers+salary+in+the+civil+service+ireland&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/circulars/circ21of2007.pdf

Revised pay with effect from 1 June 2007 for certain grades common to two or more Departments

ENGINEER GRADE I

€66,367 €68,445 €70,536 €72,622 €74,701 €77,177 €80,001¹ €82,823²

grahamo wrote: »

As you can see Jimmmy, the pay is LESS in the public sector.

kindajaded

Count Dooku wrote: »

Not more then you
You trying to proof that Ireland is rich and PS workers deserves their high salaries, I am trying to argue you that Ireland had only illusion
First – Tax revenue
Lets have a look on Capital Gains Tax plus Capital Acquisitions Tax plus Stamp Duties
In 2006 it was 7.4Bn out of 45Bn total tax receipts.
In 2007 it was 7.8 out of 49 Bn.
In 2008 it lowered to 2.4 bn out of 42bn.
In 2009 it will be 0.8 out of 34 Bn.
This source of income is gone for long time. Government only had illusion that property bubble will continue forever.
Links
http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/budget/budget2008/Whitepaper08.pdf
http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/pressreleases/2006/bc0154.pdf
http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2009/excheqmar09.pdf

Second – GDP
Real Irish GDP is very low

http://www.ija.ie/uploads/downloads/japan_ireland/Irish_Economic_Brief_2009-01.pdf
http://www.ija.ie/uploads/downloads/japan_ireland/Irish_Economic_Brief_2009-01.doc
It means that as soon as labours will increase corporate tax in order to pay high salaries to public sector, Ireland will lose 75% of GDP in one day. It means that PS salaries will have to be slashed by 7% as well.
FDI is not most reliable source of income and they can leave very quickly as Dell did it recently.
About income growth in rural areas – 80% of FDI went outside of M50. A lot of them settled in relatively rural areas.
It means that government cannot expect any significant increase in tax receipts in foreseeable future and has to learn how to live only with 34Bn income.
Choice is very small – reduce welfare or payroll bill for public services. Everything is bad.
I personally would prefer to stop any overseas aid and save 0.7 Bn, but I understand that lefties and NGO’s will not allow to do it.

still not the point - and no i am certainly not trying to mislead

i have agreed that the increase in wages and the GDP were based on a false economy - that is obvious - but you are trying to imply that it was only or mostly the PS that was part of this - absolute rubbish.
in fact the PS increases began after the rest of it and were only one aspect of a systemic problem that involved everyone.
you keep using figures to try to suggest that only PS workers made more extra money on average - again rubbish.

it is obvious that the situation has now changed and needs to be looked at again but don't try to re-write history. you are really acting like a politician..