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Why you shouldn't vote for Libertas

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  • 28-04-2009 6:18pm
    #1
    Bougeoir
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭


    Hey there,

    As you may or may not know, Declan Ganley has gotten approval today to launch his new party Libertas whom many of you many have known from the recent Lisbon Treaty Referendum which they were against. Libertas is not only in Ireland but in 27 other EU countries. The party's main objective is to bring Europe back to the people which is not what I'm debating here.

    In a recent article I found for the Times Times dated in February, Mr. Ganley was at a Catholic conference and he stated that he opposes gay marriage and abortion. He also takes a rather staunch Catholic stance on many issues and clearly supports the increasingly eurosceptic church. I don't agree with Mr. Ganley and I think we can all safely agree that the less power and control staunch Catholics and the church have in this country, the better. The article can be found here: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0209/1233867926979.html

    I'm basically strongly advising many LGBT people who support same-sex marriage to seriously consider which party you'd like to vote for cos if Libertas do get power in the future in this country, the likelihood of same-sex marriage or even civil partnership getting accepted politically will be lower.


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    #2
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Enda Kenny made the same pledge prior to the last election - did you run around telling people not to vote for him?


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    #3
    Bougeoir
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭Bougeoir


    The_Minister wrote: »
    Enda Kenny made the same pledge prior to the last election - did you run around telling people not to vote for him?
    If I had of known about that, probably yes but as I havn't up until now.


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    #4
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Bougeoir wrote: »
    If I had of known about that, probably yes but as I havn't up until now.
    :(Way to rain on my parade.
    I thought everyone knew about that. Thats why it was so funny to see Labour dodging the topic when asked about it for about a week.


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    #5
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    The_Minister wrote: »
    Enda Kenny made the same pledge prior to the last election - did you run around telling people not to vote for him?

    Link


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    #6
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Boston wrote: »
    Link
    It was Alive or the Irish Catholic AFAIR.
    I'll dig it up now.

    btw, in future you may want to add a '?' to the end of link. Otherwise you seem like you are demanding a link, rather then requesting one. Unless that was your intention.


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    #7
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Bollox - the pledge that I was thinking of (in the Irish Catholic), was actually in regards to abortion.

    I was able to find several blogs/posts/statements to the effect that he opposes gay marriage but supports civil partnership so I was wrong. There are several quotes where he opposed gay marriage but never mentioned civil partnership, so I must have read one of those.

    Sorry about that:o


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    #8
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Enda kenny, vindicated:


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    #9
    Tricity Bendix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,510 ✭✭✭Tricity Bendix


    It is entirely possible that Ganley opposes gay marriage but does not oppose civil partnerships.

    I, for one, shall probably vote for Libertas. Gay marriage is very far down the list of priorities I have when considering who should represent me as an MEP. Reform of the bloated and insular institutions would top my agenda.


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    #10
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    Weird, thought he'd be a provo socialist type.

    Though after that blackout thing I'm pretty eurosceptical.


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    #11
    joseph brand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    he opposes gay marriage and abortion

    Who's NOT against abortion? After reading articles about late abortions, truly stomach churning stuff, I certainly am. Sorry.

    As long as he has no problems with civil partnership, you're good to go!

    But honestly, there are more pressing, important issues concerning the country at present.


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    #12
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    joseph brand wrote: »
    Who's NOT against abortion? After reading articles about late abortions, truly stomach churning stuff, I certainly am. Sorry.

    Erm, quiet a lot of people.


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    #13
    shay_562
    Registered Users Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭shay_562


    Boston wrote:
    Enda kenny, vindicated:

    ...and the world sleeps easy again.
    joseph brand wrote:
    Who's NOT against abortion?

    Me. Hi!

    I wouldn't base my entire voting preference on which candidate is the most of in favour of gay rights, but given that I'm 22 and, stastically speaking, am quite likely to want to get married at some point in the next 8 years, I think it's reasonable to give significant priority to candidates who support gay marraige. Fun and all as it is to live in a country that's economically stable, it would also be nice to live in a country that treats me as an equal citizen and not as a genetic abberation that should be just about tolerated, as long as I sit down, shut up and don't hold hands with my boyfriend in public.

    Edit: That said, I wouldn't be voting for Libertas anyway as I'm relatively sure, based on a number of people I know who are involved with the party, that they're a front for Satan.


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    #14
    Reflector
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭Reflector


    Tricity Bendix wrote: »
    It is entirely possible that Ganley opposes gay marriage but does not oppose civil partnerships.

    I, for one, shall probably vote for Libertas. Gay marriage is very far down the list of priorities I have when considering who should represent me as an MEP. Reform of the bloated and insular institutions would top my agenda.

    Maybe it is down your list but it might give an indication of what kind of party Libertas is. It may indicate what their policies are in other areas. Also even though gay marraige may not affect you directly it is important to stand up for the civil liberties of other people especially minorities.


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    #15
    rsynnott
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭rsynnott


    joseph brand wrote: »
    Who's NOT against abortion? After reading articles about late abortions, truly stomach churning stuff, I certainly am. Sorry.

    Most of the developed world. Next question?

    Libertas has links to various right-wing organisations in the US (albeit more in the fiscal conservative camp than the stark-raving-mad-'christian'-nutter camp) so it would be surprising for them to take a progressive attitude on social issues.


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    #16
    hot2def
    Closed Accounts Posts: 794 ✭✭✭hot2def


    joseph brand wrote: »
    Who's NOT against abortion? After reading articles about late abortions, truly stomach churning stuff, I certainly am. Sorry.

    As long as he has no problems with civil partnership, you're good to go!

    But honestly, there are more pressing, important issues concerning the country at present.


    I'm pro choice, thank you.


    also, I'm sure there are more pressing issues if you are straight.

    if suddenly the law no longer acknowledged marriage, there would be no bigger issue until such time as it was reinstated....


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    #17
    AlexD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭AlexD


    1. Libertas are running in the European elections - which have no influence over Marital law.

    2. That is Ganley's personal opinion, not that of the party.

    3. Even if Libertas were opposed to civil partnerships, and they were in government at the national level, they would have a marginal influence, which wouldn't be able to veto the proposal.


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    #18
    hot2def
    Closed Accounts Posts: 794 ✭✭✭hot2def


    AlexD wrote: »
    3. Even if Libertas were opposed to civil partnerships, and they were in government at the national level, they would have a marginal influence, which wouldn't be able to veto the proposal.

    yes but if you are pro civil partnerships/gay marriage, you'll want every available voice, won't you?


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    #19
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    AlexD wrote: »
    1. Libertas are running in the European elections - which have no influence over Marital law..

    Ok - The European Parliament has no direct influence over marital law BUT this may change in the future, secondly the EP does have influence over other areas of concern to LGBT people and LGBT activists See this list from ILGA Europe - Ganleys link to religious conservatism in Ireland and other EU countries will not benefit LGBT rights in a broad sense
    2. That is Ganley's personal opinion, not that of the party.
    That's another point - Libertas seems to really be unwilling to share it's opinions and policies because it a hodge podge of - The Dutch Libertas appears to be pro chcoice but Irish Libertas is Pro Life..........
    3. Even if Libertas were opposed to civil partnerships, and they were in government at the national level, they would have a marginal influence, which wouldn't be able to veto the proposal
    This is speculation

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #20
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,698 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    This is speculation

    No more speculative than claiming they would have influence.

    (note: I'm not going to be voting for them either; despite being anti-EU)


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    #21
    atgate
    Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭atgate


    They would appear to be picking up their future MEPs from rather right wing parties and paying for their running costs. And as far as I know they're still not saying where the large amounts of money are coming from.

    In terms of them not having power at local government level picture this:

    They are the first pan-European party (of any note)
    They pick up single MEP seats in say 15 countries.
    In those 15 countries they build on that success and pick up five seats in each future general election.
    Seven of those countries have PR and a few seats are enough to make them a minority party in government.
    They now have a major influence in pan-European politics at a national and international level.

    And now it is too late to fond out where the money came from and what they're policies truly are.


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    #22
    dan719
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭dan719


    hot2def wrote: »


    also, I'm sure there are more pressing issues if you are straight.

    if suddenly the law no longer acknowledged marriage, there would be no bigger issue until such time as it was reinstated....

    Are you saying the biggest sole factor for you in deciding which way to vote (or for what party if you like) is there policy on gay marriage (either including or excluding civil partnership- I can't really tell from your post)?

    I find that ludicrous. It is so trivial IN RELATION to policies regarding the economy, provision of employment, healthcare and so on. I really can't imagine that you would vote for a party that promised gay marriage but would offer subpar performance in the other categories, but that is what you seem to be saying.


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    #23
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Libertas have been linked to US neo-cons and Ganley himself has investments in DoD contracts. It's been speculated that the US neo-cons are funding him and Libertas in order to destabilise the EU to prevent it becoming a true world power and therefore stopping a potential rival to the US. Sure it is speculation, but it's believable speculation and I prefer to err on the side of caution. Besides that, they seem to only output buzzwords and shallow statements that don't reflect real political policies. What we can glean from their PR is that they are fascistic and I would oppose that at every turn.


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    #24
    oisindoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 899 ✭✭✭oisindoyle


    dan719 wrote: »
    Are you saying the biggest sole factor for you in deciding which way to vote (or for what party if you like) is there policy on gay marriage (either including or excluding civil partnership- I can't really tell from your post)?

    I find that ludicrous. It is so trivial IN RELATION to policies regarding the economy, provision of employment, healthcare and so on. I really can't imagine that you would vote for a party that promised gay marriage but would offer subpar performance in the other categories, but that is what you seem to be saying.

    Well you see YOU might think its a trivial matter and in YOUR opinion other things are more important .But i take it you are a hetrosexual so YOU have every right under the law to get ,married if you want to ..A gay person is discriminated against in this country .A gay person has no equal rights yet pays his taxes .
    Its easy for you to say there are more important things ,,,BUT to ME EQUALITY is damn IMPORTANT .......


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    #25
    feoil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭feoil


    As Chris Rock (US comedian) remarked in a sketch about gay marriage, "gays have every right to be as miserable as the rest of us".
    As for Ganley and his movement, there seems to be precious little known about their true agenda. I once heard Ganley being interviewed where he seemed to be anti-NEOCON (can't find a link, sorry) and this seems to be at odds with his DOD contracts. In truth, I don't think i trust him. However with regard to the Lisbon treaty, the enemy of my enemy is my friend


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    #26
    Marshy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭Marshy


    feoil wrote: »
    However with regard to the Lisbon treaty, the enemy of my enemy is my friend
    Oh no, you're not one of those are you! What did Lisbon ever do to you... :p


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    #27
    feoil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭feoil


    Marshy wrote: »
    Oh no, you're not one of those are you! What did Lisbon ever do to you... :p

    LMAO!!, can't think of anything it's doing for me:confused:


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