Ignoring gay urges?

Boston

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

In relation to the original post, if you can convince a therapist that denying your "gay urges" is what you really want, and that you're mentally healthy and stable, then they'll help you do it. Or at least try.

Therapists or councillors often aren't all their cracked up to be.

Otaku Girl wrote: »

O.K.I didn't address it as I would have thought it was obvious. I don't believe it's necessary to repress gay urges in the same way it's neceesary to repress paedophillic urges for the following reasons;

Gay sex involves adults who are capable of giving legal and psychological consent due to obvious reasons.

No party is damaged during gay sex. With paedophillic sex the child is mentally traumatised.

Finally, the physical body of a child could be greatly damaged during paedophillic sex.

Yes, no one disagrees that paedophilia is wrong, that much is obvious. The original poster is asserting that homosexuality is also wrong, and you haven't as yet made an proper argument to the contrary.

Otaku Girl

Boston wrote: »

Yes, no one disagrees that paedophilia is wrong, that much is obvious. The original poster is asserting that homosexuality is also wrong, and you haven't as yet made an proper argument to the contrary.

I think,and Dan may correct me if I'm wrong,that he feels homosexual activity is wrong for him rather than inherently wrong.I did respond to that and Dan,somewhat rudely it has to be said, disagreed with me.I have already said why it's not wrong.I.E. no party is forced to do anything.As I see it,so long as one does not harm another than what the respective person does with their own bodies is their own business. Again,I have no issue with does who wish to practise celibacy. Just don't expect any pro gay organisation to encourage living in the closet,imo. Anyway,I the O.P. asked for opinions,I gave mine and he disagreed.

Boston

Otaku Girl wrote: »

I have already said why it's not wrong.I.E. no party is forced to do anything.

View people are forced to drink themselves into oblivion or to Gamble their life away or do a hundred other things which are still bad for them.

As I see it,so long as one does not harm another than what the respective person does with their own bodies is their own business.

True. Free will and all that.

hot2def

Boston wrote: »

The original poster is asserting that homosexuality is also wrong, and you haven't as yet made an proper argument to the contrary.

I went back and looked, and it doesn't seem to me that he did. He suggested that maybe some people might be happier to try and repress it.

Dudess

dan719 wrote: »

it should be acknowledged that some gay people will genuinely not want to be gay. At all.

That's their right, but what they shouldn't be is bitter about being gay, and resentful towards those who ARE comfortable with being gay. I guess that's difficult though, seeing as they all go hand in hand...

hot2def wrote: »

I don't know, its seems everyone is getting plenty defensive on this.

And you'd blame them?

dan719 wrote: »

this thread in no way relates to me.

Judging by other stuff you've written and the extremely venomous reception you've given people... that's hard to believe.

Boston

hot2def wrote: »

I went back and looked, and it doesn't seem to me that he did. He suggested that maybe some people might be happier to try and repress it.

0_o
denial, it aint just for sexuality.

hot2def

Boston wrote: »

0_o
denial, it aint just for sexuality.

says you. I've seen people assert that ar$es aren't for c0cks.

dan719

Dudess wrote: »

And you'd blame them?

Judging by other stuff you've written and the extremely venomous reception you've given people... that's hard to believe.

Why should people get defensive?

And also I don't give a flying f*ck what you think or believe. And who the hell wouldn't be venemous when rather than debating the issue all that happens is my mental health/stability is called into question. So quite frankly you can go f*ck yourself for all I care.

Boston

dan719 wrote: »

Why should people get defensive?

And also I don't give a flying f*ck what you think or believe. And who the hell wouldn't be venemous when rather than debating the issue all that happens is my mental health/stability is called into question. So quite frankly you can go f*ck yourself for all I care.

There's no need for that Dan. You've raised some good points and challenged people to re-evaluate afew things they've taken for granted but not ones going to debate with you if you're going to lower the tone to that level.

Dudess

dan719 wrote: »

Why should people get defensive?

Oh I don't know... the general vibe of "How dare you be comfortable with your homosexuality" off you maybe?

And also I don't give a flying f*ck what you think or believe.

Never said you should.

And who the hell wouldn't be venemous when rather than debating the issue all that happens is my mental health/stability is called into question.

Oh getting defensive (as opposed to venomous) about the above is one thing, but getting venomous towards people simply for being comfortable with being gay is what I was referring to. If you're gay and unhappy with it, fine, but no need to be so resentful and bitter towards those who are gay and happy with it.

So quite frankly you can go f*ck yourself for all I care.

Superb discussion tactic. You come across as very angry - best to work on that before finding out ways to "suppress" your gay urges...

oisindoyle

hot2def wrote: »

says you. I've seen people assert that ar$es aren't for c0cks.

I presume that your comment implies that just because someone is gay ,that they engage in anal sex ..How wrong of you ..Its just another stereotypical view you have of gay people..Just because a person is gay it doesnt automatically mean they have anal sex...Why not look at the gay man and woman as people who go about their daily work ,just like you rather than associate gay people with sex .........
Besides i know of many a hetro couple who have anal sex

Dudess

Yeah, my gay friend was saying just last night that he doesn't enjoy anal sex at all.

hot2def

oisindoyle wrote: »

I presume that your comment implies that just because someone is gay ,that they engage in anal sex ..How wrong of you ..Its just another stereotypical view you have of gay people..Just because a person is gay it doesnt automatically mean they have anal sex...Why not look at the gay man and woman as people who go about their daily work ,just like you rather than associate gay people with sex .........
Besides i know of many a hetro couple who have anal sex

I wasn't saying anything of the sort, actually. Most of my straight male friends think anal sex is great.

my point was that argument by assertion is weak, and that it is levelled at gay people all the time, often in pithy little statements like that.

Boston

I'm at little lost as to why you directed it at me though.

hot2def

Boston wrote: »

I'm at little lost as to why you directed it at me though.

perhaps I misread your post.

were you not sayng that denial isn't for sexuality? which would be argument by assertion... If not, what were you going for?


Anyway, I think maybe I am being unclear with everyone here. I am just saying that making sweeping declarations about what is good for people they have never met is a bad plan, and I feel its something that is done to lgbt people frequently, so maybe we should know better. I am not actually arguing for repressing sexuality. I am arguing for accepting that not everyone is like oneself.

Butterfly baby

being bi is wrong m'k
being gay is wrong m'k
being lesbian is wrong m'k
being transsexual is wrong m'k

Butterfly baby

dan719 wrote: »

Recently a thread was locked discussing the possibility of 'stopping being gay'. Personally I think that it should be acknowledged that some gay people will genuinely not want to be gay. At all. Whether this is due to percieved barriers their sexuality would cause, or a case of catholic guilt or so on. My question is, should services within organisations such as Belong-to offer services to such people, which instead of aiming to let them come to terms with their sexuality(which may be impossible) rather aim to help them 'park' it so to speak, and ignore it as (what they see as) a charachter flaw?

LGB supposedly contains a silent s, how about for some people a silent lgb too?

Look OP it's quite obvious you are either straight or sexually repressed and I'd assume the former if I was asked to make an opinion but at a stretch I'd probably say repressed, religious straight trying to stir the pot so lets stir back... I was christened Roman Catholic, most of my friends were to but not one of us believe in God and would consider ourselves athiests but since I was brought up in a Roman Catholic based system but don't believe it and yet still it was forced on me (I never wanted to make my communion or confirmation but still had to) should the church not pay then to compensate me for the fact that their laws dictatated my life at a time when I was not allowed make my own decisions? I chose to be atheist so by your definition then the Church (as a similar organisation to the LGB organisations) should pay for me to attend classes to learn how not to be Catholic and even better how not to believe in that mad, ridiclious entity everyone calls GOD

Otaku Girl

Butterfly baby wrote: »

...I was christened Roman Catholic, most of my friends were to but not one of us believe in God and would consider ourselves athiests but since I was brought up in a Roman Catholic based system but don't believe it and yet still it was forced on me (I never wanted to make my communion or confirmation but still had to) should the church not pay then to compensate me for the fact that their laws dictatated my life at a time when I was not allowed make my own decisions? I chose to be atheist so by your definition then the Church (as a similar organisation to the LGB organisations) should pay for me to attend classes to learn how not to be Catholic and even better how not to believe in that mad, ridiclious entity everyone calls GOD

Well said,your logic is impeccable.I was going to say something quite similiar myself but Dan seems to get abusive or sarcastic everytime someone disagrees with him.He seems quite intolerant of those who disagree with his world view or opinions.

ixoy

dan719 wrote: »

And also I don't give a flying f*ck what you think or believe. And who the hell wouldn't be venemous when rather than debating the issue all that happens is my mental health/stability is called into question. So quite frankly you can go f*ck yourself for all I care.

Tone it down five notches. Abusing other posters isn't on.

Reflector

hot2def wrote: »

. I am not actually arguing for repressing sexuality. I am arguing for accepting that not everyone is like oneself.

Cannot agree with this more. Everyone should just acknowledge that we are all different and stop trying to put labels on everything. They are so restricting anyway.

Dark Artist

The way I see it, the only reason anyone would want to suppress gay urges is because of religion and the shame imposed by society in general. It's all a result of that.

One person is proud, another person may not be proud. Yes, they each feel differently about themselves, but I'd bet you ten grand that one will always be happier than the other, and happiness is what counts.

DubArk

Well can I pose a question?

If a person is born black and they didn’t want to be black (for whatever reasons) and they wanted to change from been Black to white
(That can be done through chemicals) is it right to encourage them or to educate them that there is nothing wrong with been Black?

This is not off topic. Replace Black with the word Gay.

hot2def

DubArk wrote: »

Well can I pose a question?

If a person is born black and they didn’t want to be black (for whatever reasons) and they wanted to change from been Black to white
(That can be done through chemicals) is it right to encourage them or to educate them that there is nothing wrong with been Black?

This is not off topic. Replace Black with the word Gay.

If they, as grown adults want to do that, no one should stop them, or claim to know what is good for them without knowing them personally.

Actually, I'm glad you brought this up.

Shall we educate transgender people that there is nothing wrong with being the gender they were born, they can't change it and they will never be happy until the accept it?

molloyjh

hot2def wrote: »

I'm not saying it is do-able, nor am I throwing my lot in with the religious nutcases, I'm not saying its a good idea, or that it is healthy. But I do think its peculiar to see people asserting that it is impossible with no proof other than anecdotal/personal experience, and denying that anyone could feel other than they do.

There is no scientific basis (that I aware of, if there is I would be quite interested in reading it) for the assertion that these people are fooling themselves. And asserting that they will come inevitably to the same conclusion that you did is patronizing.

At the end of the day, and not being gay myself this is about all I have to go on, science is in no way close to an answer to this whole issue. All we have to go on to make some sort of informed decision are the experiences of gay people and societies and those attempts at "curing" gay people.

Personally I feel if someone wants to ignore their urges that is their business. Their sexual persuasion is not relevant to the action of celibacy. However without something else in their lives to fill the inevitable void I'm not sure that it can be healthy for them to do so.

The big question here, and the only reason it is in any way a LGB topic, is whether anyone should be encouraging gay people in particular to ignore their urges, and purely on the grounds that they are gay. Personally I believe not. There is no decision made, any gay person will tell you, to be gay. Therefore if it is not a conscious thing and all efforts to "cure" it have thus far proven unsuccessful why should someone be made to feel even more at odds with themselves just for their sexual persuasion? Why should that be encouraged? And surely it is unhealthy to do so?

Whether it can be "cured" or not is irrelevant (personally I don't think it can, nor should be). As things stand right now it cannot be and therefore having someone fighting a truth that cannot currently be altered is psycologically unhealthy and therefore a bad idea.

hot2def wrote: »

Shall we educate transgender people that there is nothing wrong with being the gender they were born, they can't change it and they will never be happy until the accept it?

Actually due to the wonders of modern medicine they can change their gender so this is an entirely different discussion. Maybe if/when homosexuality can be cured we can compare the two and have a meaningful debate on it, but until then they are apples and oranges.

And maybe my understanding of the issue is a little off, but aren't most transgenders naturally that way too due to an increased proportion of estrogene/testosterone in the body, thus affecting them both physically and psycologically???? Therefore they may have been born male, but with an increased amount of estrogen in their bodies making them far more feminine than other men anyway and adding a little bit of a grey area to their gender.....

Otaku Girl

molloyjh wrote: »

Actually due to the wonders of modern medicine they can change their gender so this is an entirely different discussion. Maybe if/when homosexuality can be cured we can compare the two and have a meaningful debate on it, but until then they are apples and oranges.

And maybe my understanding of the issue is a little off, but aren't most transgenders naturally that way too due to an increased proportion of estrogene/testosterone in the body, thus affecting them both physically and psycologically???? Therefore they may have been born male, but with an increased amount of estrogen in their bodies making them far more feminine than other men anyway and adding a little bit of a grey area to their gender.....

It's probably not a good idea to use the word "cure" when speaking of homosexuality is it implies a mental or physical illness nor transgender when refering to transexuals as it is an umbrella term(And a very misleading one IMO) which covers everything from panty wearers to actual transexuals who experienced severe gender dysphoria since infancy(Though for some reason even some in the professional field choose to use the term transgender when refering to transexual individuals,don't ask me why.).Homosexuality was previously classified as a fethish but now,as science has progressed, it's considered a biological variation/orientation.

Be careful not to confuse physical sex with gender.Gender refers to brain sex/identity and physical sex refers to male/female sex characteristics,of both the primary and secondary variety. The most accepted current theory in regards to the cause of transexed people is a abnormal hormone developement in the womb;


Evidence Gender Identity IS Genetic!
Mon October 20, 2003

California researchers at UCLA have published important new finding in the Journal Molecular Brain Research which repudiates the concept that homosexuality and transgender identity are a choice.

"Our findings may help answer an important question -- why do we feel male or female?" Dr. Eric Vilain, a genetics professor at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Medicine, said in a statement. "Sexual identity is rooted in every person's biology before birth and springs from a variation in our individual genome."

Since the 1970s, scientists have believed that estrogen and testosterone were completely responsible for sexual differentiation of brain structures. Recent evidence, however, indicates that hormones alone cannot explain everything about the differences between male and female brains.

The experiments were carried out on laboratory mice using two genetic testing methods. The researchers compared the production of genes in male and female brains in the embryonic mice which occurs in gestation long before the animals develop sex organs. The basic genetic principles are so fundamental to the process of sex differentiation that the results are believed to be directly applicable to human beings. The research team identified 54 genes produced in different amounts in male and female mouse brains, prior to hormonal influence. Eighteen of the genes were produced at higher levels in the male brains; 36 were produced at higher levels in the female brains.
http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/research.htm

molloyjh

Otaku Girl wrote: »

It's probably not a good idea to use the word "cure" when speaking of homosexuality is it implies a mental or physical illness

Just a quick note on that point, I only used that word as it was being bandied about here a bit. Hence the inverted commas. I don't believe for a second it is a condition requiring a cure. It's nothing more than hormones interacting with one another, be they two men, two women or a man and woman. Personally I've never understood what the big deal is and why society has over the years made such a hoo-ha over it all. Must have a look at that article this evening though, sounds interesting. Thanks for the link.

Otaku Girl

molloyjh wrote: »

Just a quick note on that point, I only used that word as it was being bandied about here a bit. Hence the inverted commas. I don't believe for a second it is a condition requiring a cure. It's nothing more than hormones interacting with one another, be they two men, two women or a man and woman. Personally I've never understood what the big deal is and why society has over the years made such a hoo-ha over it all. Must have a look at that article this evening though, sounds interesting. Thanks for the link.

Opps my apologies molloyjh,I missed the inverted commas on your post.Hope you enjoy the article.I can't understand these nosy busy bodies either.As far as I'm concerned what people do is absolutely non of my business,as long as it's not hurting anyone else,bar their precious egos and narrow world views of course-lol.If fact I would go even further. Not only is it none of my business but I'm completely indifferent to the private lives of others.I don't even think I'm capable of being nosy and hyper opinionated about such things even if I were told to.

hot2def

molloyjh wrote: »

Actually due to the wonders of modern medicine they can change their gender so this is an entirely different discussion. Maybe if/when homosexuality can be cured we can compare the two and have a meaningful debate on it, but until then they are apples and oranges.

that is a matter of opinion. you will still have the same XX or XY chromasome you were born with, and a set of only partially working genitals.

So I think thats ducking the question really.


but anyway, the only thing I take issue with in this thread is the proliferation of "Its from birth" and "You can't change it" and the suggestion that attempting it will definitely mess you up. I haven't seen any real proof of that, just peoples personal experience.

I don't see why people can't just accept that maybe some pople might not feel as the feel. If a grown adult want to attempt this, let them, and don't be a jerk and get in their face about it because it doesn't jive with your world view.

I don't expect LGBT organisations to recommend it. Why would they?

molloyjh

hot2def wrote: »

that is a matter of opinion. you will still have the same XX or XY chromasome you were born with, and a set of only partially working genitals.

So I think thats ducking the question really.

That's a very narrow view to be honest. Gender as an idea in society encompasses far more than just chromosones, and we all know that.

hot2def wrote: »

but anyway, the only thing I take issue with in this thread is the proliferation of "Its from birth" and "You can't change it" and the suggestion that attempting it will definitely mess you up. I haven't seen any real proof of that, just peoples personal experience.

To be brutally honest it seems to me that you're refusing to accept certain truths. At the end of the day, given the serious lack of scientific knowledge and information on the subject, personal experiences across multiple generations is about the only evidence we have one way or another. And all of that evidence points to the "unable to change it" position.

Granted that isn't "proof", but ask any scientist and they will tell you that it's impossible to "prove" most things. All science can do is put forward theories based on the evidence at hand and develop better ways to test that theory. Gravity for example hasn't been "proven" yet. Nor is it likely to be in the near future. It is an accepted theory because there is no evidence to the contrary, but that's it. You're quest for "proof", what I'm assuming is absolute certainty, is disingenuous as it will likely never be found. That's just the nature of science. Just because the apple has fallen to the ground 100% of the time thus far does not mean that it will always fall to the ground. That's basic science.

hot2def wrote: »

I don't see why people can't just accept that maybe some pople might not feel as the feel. If a grown adult want to attempt this, let them, and don't be a jerk and get in their face about it because it doesn't jive with your world view.

I don't expect LGBT organisations to recommend it. Why would they?

Your initial question was why aren't services offered for these people. Many here have answered that sufficiently. If someone is uncomfortable with themselves (and this goes for far more than their sexuality, this issue is a general issue affected various aspects of peoples lives) then that is for themselves to sort out in their own way. To facilitate people in turning their back on an aspect of themselves is a dangerous thing though. Even counselling violent people forces these people to come to terms with the issue first and find ways to deal with it from there. If someone came to terms with their sexuality then why would they then feel the need to turn away from it? And if they still did wouldn't this just be a matter for private counselling for that individual? It's not a LGB issue then, but a personal one that just so happens to be about sexuailty, when it could just as easily be about stress etc?

mollzer

dan719 wrote: »

Recently a thread was locked discussing the possibility of 'stopping being gay'. Personally I think that it should be acknowledged that some gay people will genuinely not want to be gay. At all. Whether this is due to percieved barriers their sexuality would cause, or a case of catholic guilt or so on. My question is, should services within organisations such as Belong-to offer services to such people, which instead of aiming to let them come to terms with their sexuality(which may be impossible) rather aim to help them 'park' it so to speak, and ignore it as (what they see as) a charachter flaw?

LGB supposedly contains a silent s, how about for some people a silent lgb too?

In answer to your question OP, if someone has gone to the trouble of going to a Belong-to service they have already started finding themselves and accepting being gay.
There are plenty of grown adults well capable of 'parking' it, so to speak and "ignore it as (what they see as ) a character flaw".

Its sad that people are ignorant to the fact there are a lot of adults in Ireland living unhappy lives due to the fact they have 'parked' their true sexuality! How many of them do you think have fulfilling happy sex lives? never mind all the other relationship aspects they are missing out on.
How many do you think go to counselling in the hope the feelings they are having will just disappear? How many do you think have commited suicide rather than face a life of unhappiness in a hetro relationship?
And why? because of the ignorance that is rampant in Ireland about being gay.
Questions like 'are you born gay?' (as in another thread) to questions about 'ignoring gay urges' dont help OP !! they dont help anyone!
Where is the similar questions relating to hetrosexual sexuality??