What a Deal! Why cant we have the same?

delop

HTC Magic

You’ll get the handset for free if you sign up for Vodafone’s £35 ($50/€39) per month tariff, which includes at least 600 minutes of talk time, unlimited texts and all the mobile web you can handle.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/04/28/htc_magic_official_launch/

What are the chances of Vodafone doing a deal anywhere near that here in Ireland? I guess the margins must be very tight here... (Ya Right!) Very depressing :-(

Columba Rad

I doubt we'll get any deal like that here, but you might see more of them popping-up on eBay at decent prices

delop

But why? Id love to hear a good reason, guy beside me here says it because there is no competitation in Ireland, thats awful cynical if you ask me...

scout353

There are over 5 million phones in use in Ireland for a population of less than 4.5 million people so the competition must be a factor!

Tom Dunne

delop wrote: »

But why? Id love to hear a good reason, guy beside me here says it because there is no competitation in Ireland, thats awful cynical if you ask me...

Think about it - 60 million in the UK vs. 4 million here.

Competition - not a whole lot here, lots in the UK.

Volume - Vodafone gets x% discount for buying 1,000 units, vs. y% discount for buying 10,000 units.

Market - just how many people in Ireland will be interested in such a phone - a couple of hundred? A few thousand? Compare that to how many would be interested in it in the UK. There just isn't the mass-market appeal of such a phone.

flanzer

I'm looking at getting a phone with Vodafone. It's a work phone so I'm locked in with them as it's a corportate account. I can't believe how far behind they are with phones versus O2 Ireland. I'm having to stick with my 6300 until they realice something half decent.

When you look at the Vodafone UK website, they've nearly every model under the sun available, mostly FREE too. I thought Ireland was one of the biggest user of mobiles in Europe per capita, behind Norway I think?

Anyone got an insight into what phones they might be doing be releasing?? Something with a xenon flash and half decent camera would do!

Genghis

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Think about it - 60 million in the UK vs. 4 million here.

Competition - not a whole lot here, lots in the UK.

Volume - Vodafone gets x% discount for buying 1,000 units, vs. y% discount for buying 10,000 units.

Market - just how many people in Ireland will be interested in such a phone - a couple of hundred? A few thousand? Compare that to how many would be interested in it in the UK. There just isn't the mass-market appeal of such a phone.

All valid arguments if we were talking about two different companies as well as two different markets. But we are not. One of the reasons Vodafone became multinational was to realise the benefits of scale. The reason they don't pass them down to us is because they can sustain unnaturally high margins by not doing so.

If the good folk of Northern Ireland -as much a minnow to us as we are to the UK - can benefit from the scale of the UK, then surely we could too if Vodafone were interested?

Same applies to O2 and Three.

brendanuk

have to agree, cant believe each countries vodafone negotiating their own individual deals with manufacturers.

Owen

What annoys me was when I used to sell phones circa 14 years ago, the shops were free to sell the handsets they wanted to, and the network would subsidise them. So as the newer handsets came out, you could go to a Dealer, get him to order it, and get the subsidised price with a contract.

Now you have to make do with older phones with crippled firmware, and locked sims.

Tom Dunne

Genghis wrote: »

All valid arguments if we were talking about two different companies as well as two different markets. But we are not. One of the reasons Vodafone became multinational was to realise the benefits of scale. The reason they don't pass them down to us is because they can sustain unnaturally high margins by not doing so.

If the good folk of Northern Ireland -as much a minnow to us as we are to the UK - can benefit from the scale of the UK, then surely we could too if Vodafone were interested?

Same applies to O2 and Three.

They are all still valid arguments, apart from the volume discounting one, perhaps. Smaller market, less competition still applies.

Anyway, I thought each of the Irish operations of the various providers were independent from the UK/Germany/Spain/Whatever units, were they not?

Perhaps Daryll from O2 can shed some light upon this.

Rsaeire

Genghis wrote: »

All valid arguments if we were talking about two different companies as well as two different markets. But we are not. One of the reasons Vodafone became multinational was to realise the benefits of scale. The reason they don't pass them down to us is because they can sustain unnaturally high margins by not doing so.

If the good folk of Northern Ireland -as much a minnow to us as we are to the UK - can benefit from the scale of the UK, then surely we could too if Vodafone were interested?

Same applies to O2 and Three.

You have to remember that a business such as Vodafone is more interested in making money than appeasing consumers. If they can get away, like all the other companies do, by charging consumers more in Ireland than they do in the UK for whatever reason, then that's exactly what they'll do. I don't like it and nor do I agree it with as a consumer, but from a business perspective, I can see why they do it.

brendanuk

Rsaeire wrote: »

You have to remember that a business such as Vodafone is more interested in making money than appeasing consumers. If they can get away, like all the other companies do, by charging consumers more in Ireland than they do in the UK for whatever reason, then that's exactly what they'll do. I don't like it and nor do I agree it with as a consumer, but from a business perspective, I can see why they do it.

Isnt that why there are European and National bodies out there to protect the consumer? Collusion and Cartels are illegal i thought

Tom Dunne

brendanuk wrote: »

Isnt that why there are European and National bodies out there to protect the consumer? Collusion and Cartels are illegal i thought

The different arms of the same company can hardly be regarded as a cartel, now can they?

Selling the same products at different prices in different markets is hardly collusion, to me it seems like good business sense - charge what the market will bear.

brendanuk

THe cartel being the irish operators holding prices artificially high

Tom Dunne

brendanuk wrote: »

THe cartel being the irish operators holding prices artificially high

I still maintain they charge what people will pay.

There has been a lot of money in the economy in the past 10 years, people got their real first taste of consumerism and went mad, not just with mobile phones.

Perhaps things will change now the big 'R' is upon us.

Walkman

As has been stated so many times before on this site networks here and in the UK are seperate. 3 Ireland and 3UK are totally seperate companies with nothing in common bar the fact they trade under the '3' brand. Same goes for Vodafone and O2.

Oafley Jones

Walkman wrote: »

As has been stated so many times before on this site networks here and in the UK are seperate. 3 Ireland and 3UK are totally seperate companies with nothing in common bar the fact they trade under the '3' brand. Same goes for Vodafone and O2.

Not sure about 3, but to say Vodafone, O2 UK and Ireland have nothing in common is nonsense. They may file returns as Irish registered companies but both are most certainly the same company with all the advantages that their clout brings.

Genghis

Walkman wrote: »

As has been stated so many times before on this site networks here and in the UK are seperate. 3 Ireland and 3UK are totally seperate companies with nothing in common bar the fact they trade under the '3' brand. Same goes for Vodafone and O2.

With respect, that's naive. They share the same shareholders, they are part of a Group reporting structure, there would be all sorts of policies and procedures, reporting, etc. Yes, they might have their own management, and they might have some autonomy, and sure there are certain quirks about each individual market, tax rates, etc.

The point is that you can be certain where benefits of scale favour the multinational, these will be exploited. Where benefits of scale do not favour the multinational, they won't.

It is far more likely that the 'free' phone in the UK cost exactly the same amount to Vodafone as the one sold for €149 in Ireland, probably sourced from the same supplier, etc than it is that Vodafone Ireland and Vodafone UK buy seperately. But if they can charge €149 for it in Ireland and get away with it, then that's what they will do.

neilled

Genghis wrote: »

With respect, that's naive. They share the same shareholders, they are part of a Group reporting structure, there would be all sorts of policies and procedures, reporting, etc. Yes, they might have their own management, and they might have some autonomy, and sure there are certain quirks about each individual market, tax rates, etc.

The point is that you can be certain where benefits of scale favour the multinational, these will be exploited. Where benefits of scale do not favour the multinational, they won't.

It is far more likely that the 'free' phone in the UK cost exactly the same amount to Vodafone as the one sold for €149 in Ireland, probably sourced from the same supplier, etc than it is that Vodafone Ireland and Vodafone UK buy seperately. But if they can charge €149 for it in Ireland and get away with it, then that's what they will do.

Its not quite as simple as people make out. Phones for Irish Networks are sourced few about three of four suppliers based in Ireland who supply each network. Many of these suppliers are indeed affiliated with the network in someway dating back to when the networks were set up. Off the top of my head sigma telecom supply meteor and possibly three, Brightpoint Ireland and Radius Communications Ireland supply o2, and 20:20 vodafone etc. I'm sure however they could be cut out of the loop and stock bought as part of the UK distribution package if needed, however there's little incentive to do that if the market will bear it.

Vodafone and O2 file separate reports respectively to their head offices in England and Spain. Three Ireland report directly to the UK and their figures tend to be thrown in with the UK ones. Meteor of course are part of Eircom now.

Average ARPU (Average Revenue Per User) is higher in Ireland than most other places in europe. Basically you get more spend per head in Ireland that you do elsewhere. Networks would insist this is because "the Irish talk and text more" than average. This isn't the case really, it just that calls are more expensive.

Just to stoke the outrage and to provide a clear example - the o2 Clear 600 plan offers a sim only plan 600 mins of anytime any network calls and 250 texts for €75.31 per month.

O2 UK Simplicty in the UK on the other hand offers 600 anytime any network mins, 500 texts, and the choice of a free bold on which means one of the following options for free.

• unlimited texts
• free on net calls (o2-o2)
• free web
• another 200 mins of calls
• unlimited uk landline calls
• unlimited saturday and sunday calls
• free blackberry

The cost of this package per month? £20.

Of course being an o2 member of staff up north means I can get this for even less if I wish.

Walkman

As of January 2008 3 Ireland report directly to Hong Kong and have no affiliation with 3UK

neilled

Walkman wrote: »

As of January 2008 3 Ireland report directly to Hong Kong and have no affiliation with 3UK

Are you sure about that? Three always bundle Ireland info in the UK trade magazines.

O2_Daryll

Tom Dunne wrote: »

They are all still valid arguments, apart from the volume discounting one, perhaps. Smaller market, less competition still applies.

Anyway, I thought each of the Irish operations of the various providers were independent from the UK/Germany/Spain/Whatever units, were they not?

Perhaps Daryll from O2 can shed some light upon this.

We have discussed issues like this at lenght on our forum too. I will get the link in a minute to the thread but it all started off when the price comparisons for the iPhone started off.

The way you have to think about it is that despite O2, Vodafone and 3 being owned by multinationals with similar companies with similar names operating in different countries these companys are completely separate, have there own board and own targets to hit.

Economy of scale comes into it here, I mean there is no way we can offer the same deals as they do in the UK as they have 20 times the customers (20 time the money). The analogy used by Tom earlier on in the thread shows why this is.

neilled

There's no doubt that O2 Ireland can never match the deals being offered by the UK. I don't think thats being suggested, however customers backs do get put up when they see massive price disparity between two similar packages, that essentially involve the provision of a sim - in the case I have cited the comparable Irish package stacks up some €50 per month more expensive and I hear rants about it all the time at work. I just have to sit there and listen and nod as appropriate.

On the books last year o2 Ireland had 1.7 million or so compared with 19.1 million in the UK. The deals simply cannot be the same, Nontheless its fair to say most operators extract more revenue per head in Ireland than they do in other countries - the operating margin generally speaking is higher(before write off, amortization, depreciation etc) as is the Average Revenue Per User.

Davy

neilled wrote: »

Nontheless its fair to say most operators extract more revenue per head in Ireland than they do in other countries - the operating margin generally speaking is higher(before write off, amortization, depreciation etc) as is the Average Revenue Per User.

On the last report Ireland’s ARPU was €41.2 per month in Q4 2008 above the EU average of €25.80.