25 % Paycuts by everybody (including politictians). .

Drumpot

Was driving home there and had an idea. I know its been suggested elsewhere and hinted at and accept that there are potential legal difficulties (and possible EU issues) with implementing it but here goes anyways. I think this is very difficult to implement for obvious reasons but is better then taxation.

This idea is directed at the masses more then smaller businesses or companies. The idea is that with mass agreement in the public sector and bigger players in the private sector, the rest of would have to follow suit eventually.

Perhaps a referendum help get past the legal ramificitions of this idea!

A collective agreement of 25% decrease of salaries in all levels of employment.

Now obviously its easier to implement these cuts quicker in the public service.

On the private side its obviously a more difficult thing to implement so you would have to get commitements of some sort that this would be implemented. There would have to also be some sort of agreement that all these cost savings would be passed onto the consumer. Obviously this couldnt be guaranteed but it could be encouraged with initiatives like a company has to disclose the cost of a good (on average) for the final 6 months leading up to the pay cuts and the current cost (so people can see who is trying to rip them off and who is profiteering).

Companies would see a reduction in the costs of employment and would be pretty much forced to reduce their prices in line with salaries (if people cant afford to pay for profiteering then companies will soon go out of business).

Goals:
- Reduce Salaries and hence costs of goods and services
- Reduce Public pension costs, social welfare, public service salary costs
- Increase irelands appeal to foreign investors. Cheaper , educated labor, costs of doing business in Ireland decrease.
- Everybody shares the pain in equal measure, ideally every cost of good reduced by 25%

Assumptions:
- Legally this can be done in the EU
- Smaller vested interests will oppose but should be steamrolled
- Legal issues (terms of employment etc) will arise but ignored for this suggestion
- Main costs for average householder are - Mortgage, Food, electricity, heating (therefore main areas that need the 25% reduction in costs)

Banks. Either nationalised or not , forced to implement these salary cuts as part of the sums of money being pumped into their coffers. Mortgage costs reduced due to savings by banks in salaries (I know its not that simple, but something innovative implemented to help people with mortgages getting reduced salaries).

Heating and electricity costs reduced 25%. Generally most other household bills reduced in line with national salary reduction.

Retail outlets. Will they pass over an opportunity to reduce salary costs! I think not, particularly if its legally part of a nationwide collective agreement. They couldnt but pass on at least some of this savings to consumers (less money in economy) but if there could be legislation forcing all companies to reduce prices by 20-25% it would make profiteering tougher (not perfect but again focus on the idea, not the specific problems around it).

Main Advantages:
-Competitiveness of country improved significantly. Hopefully more foreign investment and companies opening up in ireland reducing unemployment and adding to government coffers (its all about getting people employed and getting money into the country).
-Government costs reduce by 25% immediatly. Government taxes received obviously reduced, but with increase in employment and investment in the country we should recover alot quicker.
-Message sent out globally that ireland is serious about being competitive and are capable of radically changing our living patterns to suit the markets. We would be showing the world that we are willing to recognise the problems we face and more importantly take the collective hit. In essence, we are a nation of educated adults prepared to make sacrifices when needed.


If everybody takes the hit and most companys pass on the savings (may take time but eventually anybody who doesnt will have competitive issues).

ardmacha

Heating and electricity costs reduced 25%

While pay reduction has some merit, this is simplistic. Heating etc is largely related to the price of oil and cannot just be arbitrarily cut. You can have 25% pay cuts, but most prices have a non pay element and so would not fall as much.

Mortgages cannot be reduced by 25% as the banks owe this money to depositors and bond holders. Are you suggesting that deposits in Irish banks be reduced by 25%, this would lead to an immediate flood of money out of the country.

The_Conductor

The big problem with this- is a 25% paycut has a much higher percentage decrease in taxation- both direct and indirect taxation. Certainly spending does need to be cut massively- but revenue is also a factor- and giving everyone a 25% paycut would be counter productive in this respect.

S.

Drumpot

smccarrick wrote: »

The big problem with this- is a 25% paycut has a much higher percentage decrease in taxation- both direct and indirect taxation. Certainly spending does need to be cut massively- but revenue is also a factor- and giving everyone a 25% paycut would be counter productive in this respect.

S.

I understand these points (and that on oil etc), but if employee salaries is widely recognised as the biggest cost factor in most industries, I have to believe this is something that can be worked around. If you can pass on any savings (even in these sectors, there is still savings to be had).

If theres 25% pay reduction in Public service you dont need as much money in the coffers. If you include public pensions, bonus's, social welfares etc, you would be no worse off then if people were on the existing salary. The idea is to get long term sustainable foreign employment into the country by increasing our competitive value.

Then think of the knockon effects of foreign companies looking for base to setup in europe, Cheap, well educated labour in this country and a country of motivated employees determined to keep themselves at the front of European expansion (at their own cost). Tourism should improve as we have cheaper goods and services .. . The knockon effect would potentially make us better off in the long run then continuing the way we are.

As far as spending goes, if its a combined public effort then spending wont change. People will still get mainly what they bought this year for the same price next year. And the knockon effect of prices in comparison to Northern Ireland would see the mass exodus decline significantly as Irish retailers become more competitive with their Northern ireland counterparts (VAT back to our country along with profits and maintaining business in ireland).

As far as banks are concerned, i understand there are problems relating to mortgages and the small percentages between what it costs a bank to borrow and to lend. Basically banks would have to share the savings in some way. If it costs less to run your business, its only fair that these savings should be passed onto consumer. If banks were nationalised there would be more scope for banks to reduce the likes of variable rates (and help get people out of high fixed rates). However I do understand that this is a very difficult one to sort out . . Please bare with my "perfect solution"

Its an idealistic simple solution with many many variables and problems. I put this more as much as a debate as a genuine wish, but I think its really food for thought for those who still give out about it "not being their fault". We are all in this mess together and the quickest solution is for us all to collectively get out of it together with collective sacrifices.

If the min wage is differant in each countries (some far worse then others), how do they maintain lower energy costs. (Just curious, not a sarcastic comment). I would imagine in Poland my electricity and heating bill would be a fraction of that in Ireland. I would of thought that Labour cost would be the main cause of this . .

the main idea behind this is that everybody would have to comply. With less labour expense companies could afford to reduce prices, with less money to spend by the public, companies could Ill afford not to pass on a majority of these savings.

PCPhoto

as far as I remember under the irish constitution judges cannot reduce in pay ..... so you'd be asking for a change in the Irish Consititution..... good luck with that !!!

Apart from that I think I might throw out my two cents :
STOP public servants from wasting money (ie. E-Voting machines, private jet etc etc) - Make them accountable for their actions !!!

STOP the stranglehold that doctors/consultants have, min €50 to visit a doc - only for him/her to tell you you are sick and to take paracetemol :rolleyes:

ADJUST the social welfare system (Find and block the loopholes and prosecute the scammers)

FIX the criminal justice system (repeat offenders NEED to be punished with proper sentences - personally anyone with more than 10convictions should get a min 5yr or 10yr sentence - no matter what the crime - teach them to stop doing it)

STOP retailers from making ridiculous profits (help them to compete with nordy retailers, lower costs - and this is passed on to joe public so increase in public spending)

STOP taxi-drivers from striking (Regulate the system properly: new licence = min 5yrs daytime service only, colour code taxi's and heavily fine those who breach system)

HELP the gardai/nurses/emergency services (employ a proper amount of staff, train them up correctly ....cut out garda overtime - by creating jobs)

GET RID OF BAD DRIVERS : introduce retesting for licence holders, ie. normal person every 5yrs....those on the roads constantly (more frequent testing every 2yrs), make it compulsory for new drivers to do training courses (car maintenance/repair, first aid and minimum 50hours driving lessons)

OK... think my rant is over.

Drumpot

PCPhoto wrote: »

as far as I remember under the irish constitution judges cannot reduce in pay ..... so you'd be asking for a change in the Irish Consititution..... good luck with that !!!

Just highlights the total inadequacy of this sort of legislation. Whether my suggestion is taken up or not, this archaeic law should be abolished . .

thebman

PCPhoto wrote: »

as far as I remember under the irish constitution judges cannot reduce in pay ..... so you'd be asking for a change in the Irish Consititution..... good luck with that !!!

Apart from that I think I might throw out my two cents :
STOP public servants from wasting money (ie. E-Voting machines, private jet etc etc) - Make them accountable for their actions !!!

STOP the stranglehold that doctors/consultants have, min €50 to visit a doc - only for him/her to tell you you are sick and to take paracetemol :rolleyes:

ADJUST the social welfare system (Find and block the loopholes and prosecute the scammers)

FIX the criminal justice system (repeat offenders NEED to be punished with proper sentences - personally anyone with more than 10convictions should get a min 5yr or 10yr sentence - no matter what the crime - teach them to stop doing it)

STOP retailers from making ridiculous profits (help them to compete with nordy retailers, lower costs - and this is passed on to joe public so increase in public spending)

STOP taxi-drivers from striking (Regulate the system properly: new licence = min 5yrs daytime service only, colour code taxi's and heavily fine those who breach system)

HELP the gardai/nurses/emergency services (employ a proper amount of staff, train them up correctly ....cut out garda overtime - by creating jobs)

GET RID OF BAD DRIVERS : introduce retesting for licence holders, ie. normal person every 5yrs....those on the roads constantly (more frequent testing every 2yrs), make it compulsory for new drivers to do training courses (car maintenance/repair, first aid and minimum 50hours driving lessons)

OK... think my rant is over.

I agree with the public sector wastage and accountability needs to be introduced where it isn't already present and the doctors need to be regulated if they are going to take the p*ss on pricing. Your in there 3 minutes after an hour wait and they charge you 50 quid for it racket can't continue. Agree with social welfare scammers being removed.

Don't know enough about justice to get into it but I suspect the main reason that isn't happening is we don't have the capacity in our prisons. I'd be more for ensuring offenses don't occur in the first place though which might take more time to filter through but would ultimately lead to decreasing crime rates as prison sentences don't stop criminals as they hope to get away with it no matter how stupid that idea might be.

Retailers main problem in this country seems to be the distributors from what I can see so I'd tackle those to help our small retailers take on the likes of Tesco etc... who would then naturally reduce their rates to the same levels they are in Britain. This would help Tesco if they were being overcharged by distributors too of course but that isn't a problem as long as the savings are passed on.

I think Taxi Drivers should stop striking. I think we should have less regulation not more in this industry. Prices shouldn't be fixed especially not nationwide.

We can't afford to hire more garda etc...

I would be against mandatory retests every 5 years as it takes too much time to organise tests and get lessons which everyone would have to do. I think if you get new points, you should have to retake the theory test online if possible and if you fail it you should have to retake the test. If you get more than 6 points then you should have to take the driving test again but it should be an advanced driving course as well as the road test. I think overall the current system works okay. There are bad drivers but there ways to catch them and force them to retake the test if the laws are enforced and they get the points and are forced to learn again.

conlonbmw

I think anyone in the government or public service should only be allowed earn 80k max.

serfboard

PCPhoto wrote: »

as far as I remember under the irish constitution judges cannot reduce in pay

Saw that recently, that the constitution says that judges' pay can not be reduced. Funny that. I'll bet there's nothing in the constitution that says that judges' pay cannot be increased? :rolleyes:

Drumpot

conlonbmw wrote: »

I think anyone in the government or public service should only be allowed earn 80k max.

I agree in principle with this suggestion but the Problem is that we definantly wouldnt get qualified people in specific positions if that was the case.

If a person does a good job and is productive they derserved to be paid the going rate. But the ways in which people are assessed needs to be addressed.

Lu Tze

serfboard wrote: »

Saw that recently, that the constitution says that judges' pay can not be reduced. Funny that. I'll bet there's nothing in the constitution that says that judges' pay cannot be increased? :rolleyes:

I presume it is to keep the judiciary wholly independant of the government. Otherwise if a judge sets a precedent the current governemnt don't like, they can threaten to reduce pay

Drumpot

Lu Tze wrote: »

I presume it is to keep the judiciary wholly independant of the government. Otherwise if a judge sets a precedent the current governemnt don't like, they can threaten to reduce pay

Why should the country be held to randsom because Judges are afraid of getting reduced pay . . How can any profession justify the rule that their salary can only increase . . Does this not mean that the government could threaten any other level of Public service with the same penalty if they dont tow the line . .