Are you / Could you ever be a vegetarian?

seamus

el_tiddlero wrote: »

Bear in mind that meat-animals such as goats and sheep are bred in locations that are not conducive to raising crops..

And what do they eat? A cow which might provide a week's meat for 20 people (I'm being generous here) will eat far more crops and consume far more in its lifetime than those 20 people would if they ate alternatives for that week. Environmentally, eating meat is far more costly than eating vegetarian.

Your assertion that farm animals would breed uncontrollably is a tad alarmist. The bulk of farm animals would have difficulty surviving in the wild, particularly in this country where we don't exactly have huge plains for herds of cows to roam.

Capt'n Midnight

seamus wrote: »

Vegetarians eat eggs. Vegans don't.

Last time I checked eggs weren't vegetables, but what do I know ?

Have I missed any ? ( like Masai who live on blood and milk )
cannibal
carnivore
omnivore
Semi-vegetarianism (no red meat)
Pollotarianism (chicken) / pescetarians (fish)
Lacto-ovo vegetarianism.
ovo vegetarianism / Lacto vegetarianism.
vegans

LOL
Vegetarian eggs are eggs which come from hens who are fed a vegetarian diet :rolleyes:

In 2003, the American Dialect Society voted flexitarian as the year's most useful word and defined it as "a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat"

el_tiddlero

seamus wrote: »

And what do they eat? A cow which might provide a week's meat for 20 people (I'm being generous here) will eat far more crops and consume far more in its lifetime than those 20 people would if they ate alternatives for that week. Environmentally, eating meat is far more costly than eating vegetarian.

Your assertion that farm animals would breed uncontrollably is a tad alarmist. The bulk of farm animals would have difficulty surviving in the wild.

i wasn't speaking of environmental impact, i was speaking of available land for food production to feed all these new vegetarians.. the land used to raise sheep and goats could not be used to grow crops. They feed on wild grasses and such in the hills, where we cannot cultivate. We cannot digest grasses. We do not have the masticatory abilities, nor the constitution for it. it's my opinion that in order to produce edible crops on such land we would have to do serious ecological damage, which would in turn destroy natural habitats and harm more creatures than would be saved.


if those animals would not survive in the wild, then what's to be done with them, by our refusal to eat them would we be condemning them to death at the hands of the elements or some other predator? how is that better for the animal (since that's what the vegetarians are concerned about right?)

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.vegsoc.org/news/2009/bread.html?page=24
Bread contains pork ? :eek:
Do the Mexicans know this ??

seamus

el_tiddlero wrote: »

i wasn't speaking of environmental impact, i was speaking of available land for food production to feed all these new vegetarians.. the land used to raise sheep and goats could not be used to grow crops. They feed on wild grasses and such in the hills, where we cannot cultivate. We cannot digest grasses. We do not have the masticatory abilities, nor the constitution for it. it's my opinion that in order to produce edible crops on such land we would have to do serious ecological damage, which would in turn destroy natural habitats and harm more creatures than would be saved.

They eat more than grasses "in the hills" tbh. If the land wasn't used for livestock it could be easily be converted into standard crops without much effect on the surrounding areas.

how is that better for the animal (since that's what the vegetarians are concerned about right?)

That depends on what vegetarian you talk to. I would go for an amnesty - let everyone eat their last pieces of meat, use up the current "stocks" and that's the end of it. Others may say that you let them loose and although most will die, in the long run it's better for the species.
I personally wouldn't advocate forcing the whole world or even a country to go veggie, so I don't need to answer the question or justify it. However, it's not a ridiculous proposal if you think about phasing it in. You wouldn't just "go veggie" overnight. The assertion is that the world couldn't be vegetarian. That's fundamentally flawed because every attempt to disprove it tries to claim that it would be impossible to "switch", not that it's actually impossible.

el_tiddlero

seamus wrote: »

The assertion is that the world couldn't be vegetarian. That's fundamentally flawed because every attempt to disprove it tries to claim that it would be impossible to "switch", not that it's actually impossible.

i'm not claiming it would be impossible to switch, I'm stating that if we did there would not be enough space to grow the amount of food we would need to survive in our current numbers. Certainly not if we didn't use pesticides or other preventative measures to ensure the safety of our crop..

Let me put it this way, as I see it, something must always die so that we may live. Be it plant or animal we're always killing something to eat. That's the law of nature. In my view, animals are just another natural resource to be utilized, preferably in their entirity. That means skin, bones, flesh, fur, the whole works. I'd rather see a holistic approach to animal husbandry and meat-eating, rather than an erradication of it. Besides, while you might get something like that to wash in a western country, good luck in places where they still hunt for food, meat is the king to them. Anyone can pick a papaya (or any tropical fruit or veg) but only the top dogs can bring home some boar!!!

taram

el_tiddlero wrote: »

does the Earth have enough space on it to produce the amount of vegetable matter it would require to feed us all if we all went veggie? What would we do with all the cows, sheep, pigs, chickens etc that we raise for meat? Would we let them run free and wild? Would that not increase the number of wild sheep/cow/pig/chicken attacks? Would they not runamok on our crops if left to their own devices? Or do you suggest we keep them as pets?
Do you disagree with pest control? How do you feel about eating carrots produced in places with high rabbit populations that must be culled? How about lettuce that required slugs to be killed so that you could eat it intact? There are animal casualties for every facet of modern human life.. for example modern sanitation has decimated rat populations, should we abandon that too?

Yes the earth has enough room, easily. There's an energy input to output. You need 54 times the energy into a cow than you get out in meat. 40 percent of the world's grain is being fed into animals rather than directly to people. http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug97/livestock.hrs.html All that grain and land would feed an awful lot of people. And it screws up the land, between burning the rainforests for land to graze cows to locally where silage destroys our water systems and clears topsoil. And for the old chestnut 'what would we do with the animals??? omg!!' we'd obviously keep them for wool and milk production, for egg production etc. Anyway, no one's suggesting the world become veggie, but most people should reduce their meat intake healthwise, and the earth would be better off with less meat consumption.

kraggy

el_tiddlero wrote: »

does the Earth have enough space on it to produce the amount of vegetable matter it would require to feed us all if we all went veggie? What would we do with all the cows, sheep, pigs, chickens etc that we raise for meat? Would we let them run free and wild? Would that not increase the number of wild sheep/cow/pig/chicken attacks? Would they not runamok on our crops if left to their own devices? Or do you suggest we keep them as pets?
Do you disagree with pest control? How do you feel about eating carrots produced in places with high rabbit populations that must be culled? How about lettuce that required slugs to be killed so that you could eat it intact? There are animal casualties for every facet of modern human life.. for example modern sanitation has decimated rat populations, should we abandon that too?

Very naive view.

It is fact that one acre produces more iron in the form of broccoli than if you raise cattle on it.

Regarding the numbers of sheep, cattle, pigs, chickens, your suggestion is hideous. The only reason we have so many of these as things stand is because they intensively bred by humans for consumption by same.

Crops can be grown without pesticides or interference from wild rabbits.

In addition to the counter arguments above, if the percentage of vegetarians among the world population continues to grow, it will have untold benefits for the environment. 20 to 50% of methane comes from cows alone and has a huge effect on global warming (the rest comes from coal mines etc).

Orla K

taram wrote: »

most people should reduce their meat intake healthwise

I'm not going to get into this argument but how much do most people eat? and/or how much should they reduce by/to?

dr.bollocko

taram wrote: »

most people should reduce their meat intake healthwise

I wholeheartedly disagree with that sentiment.

ART6

I have been a vegetarian for many years. Unfortunately I don't have time to go out and graze all day long, so I obtain my vegetation input by eating those that do. If I and others didn't do that the world would be overrun with sheep and cattle and there would be no vegetables for anyone to eat.:D

taram

dr.bollocko wrote: »

I wholeheartedly disagree with that sentiment.

I worked for a while with a GP and a dietican and both were constantly trying to get people to reduce their meat intake. I know in my own family the first thing my doctor did was cut all the red meat out of my granddad's diet when he had a heart attack, any healthy eating leaflet will say to cut down on most meats, obviously chicken/fish are miles better for you than red meat. High meat consumption has been linked to colon and liver cancer amongst others, heart disease is obvious due to the fact the majority of saturated fat in human diet comes from meat. Most people eat meat twice a day, and probably more than what's classified as one portion at a go.

Leprachaun

God no. A good steak is better than sex.

Weidii

I stayed off it for four years but I became really skinny and my hair started falling out so I had to start eating it again. I'm just bad at supplementing.

ScumLord

I couldn't possibly live on just cabbage and potatoes.

dr.bollocko

taram wrote: »

I worked for a while with a GP and a dietican and both were constantly trying to get people to reduce their meat intake. I know in my own family the first thing my doctor did was cut all the red meat out of my granddad's diet when he had a heart attack, any healthy eating leaflet will say to cut down on most meats, obviously chicken/fish are miles better for you than red meat. High meat consumption has been linked to colon and liver cancer amongst others, heart disease is obvious due to the fact the majority of saturated fat in human diet comes from meat. Most people eat meat twice a day, and probably more than what's classified as one portion at a go.

Does that mean that what we have survived on for millions of years was actually bad for us all along?
I could ask you to show me one non observational study that proves that saturated fat causes heart disease. I could point out the high percentage of people who have heart attacks and also have a blood sugar disorder. So is it the meat? Or the wheats and sugary fruits which boost blood sugar levels higher again?
And I could point out that recent study that showed that veggies have a higher rate of colon cancer than meat eaters.
And then you would counter with your own studies. And I would counter with a couple more that contradict what you're saying and probably mention a few indigenous populations that survive solely on meat and blubber and you would counter with some other populations that live on sago and roots. And this would go on ad infinitum until at least 1 or 2am until we both hate each other and the everyone on the thread hates the two of us and the story is:
Vegetarians and carnivores will never agree over anything on the internet and neither one of us can say what is in fact the correct and healthy thing to eat with any degree of certainty.

javaboy

A recent study showed that's how 90% of these threads go.

El_Dangeroso

The main issue with studies that show that vegetarians live longer are observational, as in they make people fill out forms about their habits.

The problem with these studies is they can't possibly include all confounding factors, for example, vegetarians are more likely to be more health-conscious, be non-smokers, go to the doctor more often, do yoga etc. than people who ignore the current 'accepted' nutritional wisdom. There is no way to include the thousands of possible tiny things one can do for one's health that could make the difference.

Here is a great example, growing a beard increases your risk of heart disease:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/158/11/1123.pdf

So what needs to be done if you want to actually prove causation rather than correlation is an intervention study where you take a big group of people, randomise them and split them into two. You tell one group to give up meat and you tell the other group carry on as normal. Every few years you check how everyone's doing. That's how you prove a hypothesis.

Novella

I live with a veggie and seen as we make dinner together, I rarely eat meat.... But I would die without the odd double cheese burger!

taram

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Does that mean that what we have survived on for millions of years was actually bad for us all along?
I could ask you to show me one non observational study that proves that saturated fat causes heart disease. I could point out the high percentage of people who have heart attacks and also have a blood sugar disorder. So is it the meat? Or the wheats and sugary fruits which boost blood sugar levels higher again?
And I could point out that recent study that showed that veggies have a higher rate of colon cancer than meat eaters.
And then you would counter with your own studies. And I would counter with a couple more that contradict what you're saying and probably mention a few indigenous populations that survive solely on meat and blubber and you would counter with some other populations that live on sago and roots. And this would go on ad infinitum until at least 1 or 2am until we both hate each other and the everyone on the thread hates the two of us and the story is:
Vegetarians and carnivores will never agree over anything on the internet and neither one of us can say what is in fact the correct and healthy thing to eat with any degree of certainty.

Nah, hunter gatherers need their bacon in the morning Hehe okay, for the sake of the thread we'll quit.

Maybe can bring it back to the AH roots by saying I'd eat yore ma? That work for you?

Tar.Aldarion

neddas wrote: »

The main issue with studies that show that vegetarians live longer are observational, as in they make people fill out forms about their habits.

The problem with these studies is they can't possibly include all confounding factors, for example, vegetarians are more likely to be more health-conscious, be non-smokers, go to the doctor more often, do yoga etc. than people who ignore the current 'accepted' nutritional wisdom. There is no way to include the thousands of possible tiny things one can do for one's health that could make the difference.

Here is a great example, growing a beard increases your risk of heart disease:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/158/11/1123.pdf

So what needs to be done if you want to actually prove causation rather than correlation is an intervention study where you take a big group of people, randomise them and split them into two. You tell one group to give up meat and you tell the other group carry on as normal. Every few years you check how everyone's doing. That's how you prove a hypothesis.

I like the study better where, if you were in this airforce, you were nearly always going to have only male children. Also, the one that said vegetarians were smarter than omnivores is good too. :pac:

Now, off to eat my 100% carb diet and live to 300. :eek:

Groe

I was a vegetarian for about a week when I was 13 but felt really dizzy, weak and couldnt think straight so I stopped, as the OP said fair play to those who can do it.

El_Dangeroso

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I like the study better where, if you were in this airforce, you were nearly always going to have only male children. Also, the one that said vegetarians were smarter than omnivores is good too. :pac:

Now, off to eat my 100% carb diet and live to 300. :eek:

Hey man, anything's possible..

Otaku Girl

Sometimes I feel guilty for eating meat because I love animals.Yeah,I could but it would take awhile to get used to.It probably would be alot healthier too.It might be inconvenient to begin with though.

KeyLimePie

I'm vegetarian, but not for ethical reasons as i'm wearing leather shoes...

vibe666

i'm 100% meatatarian, couldn't live without it.

also, i really care about plants and vegetables too much to eviscerate and torture them. they have feelings too you know.

not like those useless meatbags you see standing in fields decapitating all the precious sensitive grass and ruining the ozone with their farts.

well, they're not totally useless, they DO make a lovely steak!

entropi

I've been vegetarian for almost 2 years now and actually feel much healthier than i did as a meat eater. I'm happy with my choice and plan on keeping my current eating habits. Only realised i should turn veggie as i ate meat around once every 2 months at most, and decided i'm better off without it as i can do without anyway:)

I do eat eggs, and dairy products but avoid anything wth gelatin though as its made from animal bones. My immediate family and friends know i'm veggie and dont bother trying to make jokes about it as i'm past that:P

Whoever wants to eat meat, well then let them, if they have a grudge about people being healthy from not being meat eaters...thats their choice as i'm not one to judge.

Capt'n Midnight

KeyLimePie wrote: »

I'm vegetarian, but not for ethical reasons as i'm wearing leather shoes...

Wouldn't be too keen on eating shoes myself, even if they were organic.

Capt'n Midnight

One difference in a non-meat diet is that you get less of a certain amino acid (tryptophan ?) that makes you sleep so you gain an extra hour awake compared to meat eaters.

dan719

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I've been a vegetarian since i was a child and I was consistently top of my class.

So you're talking sh*te!

I've eaten meat since I was a child and am still top of my class.

So you're talking ****e.:rolleyes:

TimTim

Life without meat is a life not worth living.

Plus I can't stand veg so its meat or starvation and eventual death.

SV

To all vegetarians, for every cow you don't eat, I pledge to eat 5 in it's place.
happy days.

edit:
read as, I will eat lots of steak for every vegetarian I hear of.

javaboy

SV wrote: »

To all vegetarians, for every cow you don't eat, I pledge to eat 5 in it's place.
happy days.

How do you count how many cows they don't eat? You don't eat only slightly less cows than they don't eat. That is to say that there are millions of cows they don't eat and millions of cows you won't eat too.

Think about it. If the world population of cows is 100 million, then there are 100 million cows they won't eat. You therefore have to eat 500 million cows i.e. more than the entire population.

I applaud your idea and I can see what you're aiming for but the wording is flawed and the plan's unworkable.

SV

javaboy wrote: »

How do you count how many cows they don't eat? You don't eat only slightly less cows than they don't eat. That is to say that there are millions of cows they don't eat and millions of cows you won't eat too.

Think about it. If the world population of cows is 100 million, then there are 100 million cows they won't eat. You therefore have to eat 500 million cows i.e. more than the entire population.

I applaud your idea and I can see what you're aiming for but the wording is flawed and the plan's unworkable.

You had to get smart(or just logical) on me didn't you?
Couldn't just leave it that I would eat a lot of steak?

Damn it anyway.

kraggy

dan719 wrote: »

I've eaten meat since I was a child and am still top of my class.

So you're talking ****e.:rolleyes:

Are ya sure you're top of your class there sunshine? Cause you missed the point completely.

She was proving that you can be top of the class without eating meat. Just cause you eat meat and are "top of your class" does not disprove her point.

vibe666

SV wrote: »

To all vegetarians, for every cow you don't eat, I pledge to eat 5 in it's place.

sounds like a plan, count me in!

javaboy wrote: »

Think about it. If the world population of cows is 100 million, then there are 100 million cows they won't eat. You therefore have to eat 500 million cows i.e. more than the entire population.

okay, lets just say that we're going to have a fcuking good crack at it!

the problem I have is that every time I see a vegetarian option, I can't help but think it would taste a lot better with meat in it.

idontknowmyname

I don't eat certain types of meats, i'm just a fussy b*tch though. As a child I was forced to eat meat but when I was about 12 I stopped eating meats I didn't really like- I have a big thing about fatty meat, won't touch it or will spend ages cutting it off to get a tiny morsel of what I consider good meat off it.
I love fish, chicken and will really only eat beef in lean mince form- i'd never order a steak in a restaurant. Don't touch bacon (will have rashers though), pork, lamb etc.
I did go veggie for a few months, meat doesn't hugely figure in my diet at the moment just simply because i'm having a lot of salads. Can't go without.

omyatari

i actualy went vegitarian for about a year, but resistance for the taste of a nice bloody almost rare (bleu for the French if u wish) tender steak is futile.

on a differant note, i LOVE raw mushrooms, the normal ones not the magic ones.
apparently this makes me a freak to some people.....

xanthor

12 years since my last slice of dead animal.

If everybody gave it up, pigs, cows, and the like would probably end up near extinct. Can't do the Vegan thing. Like eggs too much. In reality, i just do it to be difficult.

aDeener

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I've been a vegetarian since i was a child and I was consistently top of my remedial class.

So you're talking sh*te!

You can get all the protein you need from other sources.

Plus some of the strongest and biggest animals are herbivores, so it does no harm to you physically either.

FYP :pac:

i just couldnt live without a bit of sausage!:D

javaboy

aDeener wrote: »

FYP :pac:

Watch it.

Notorious

For me its not a meal without meat, but you've gotta have some veggies too.

I generally go for meat and two veg.

javaboy

Notorious wrote: »

I generally go for meat and two veg.

Oooh matron!

Irishcrx

I love eating meat, steak during the week is amazing and I don't like the taste of veg or fruit can't stomach it wish I could. I see the point and view of vegeterians that they believe it is wrong and its a dead animal and to an extend I agree, but I believe it's in our nature to eat meat so I do. I also believe plants are living creatures.

HalloweenJack

I need meat. It's great. I don't think I could live without it.

I try to fit some into about two meals a day and there's nothing nicer than a big, fat, juicy steak with pepper sauce. It's absolutely gorgeous.

There's no moral dilemna for me.

El_Dangeroso

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

One difference in a non-meat diet is that you get less of a certain amino acid (tryptophan ?) that makes you sleep so you gain an extra hour awake compared to meat eaters.

Isn't Tryptophan the amino acid that functions as a biochemical precursor to serotonin, a deficit of which can lead to depression? I think you can get it from sunflower seeds or egg white anyway.

I think you need to work a bit harder as a vegetarian to avoid nutritional deficiency, especially in essential amino acids. Not that it's impossible, it just doesn't come as naturally when you eat meat.

Especially common is anaemia, two vegetarian friends of mine became anaemic when giving up meat.

And no meat does not equate with a healthier diet, it's quite easy to get a heart attack and diabetes eating veggie food, look at India, they have the highest rate of vegetarianism and the highest rate of diabetes.

Tar.Aldarion

neddas wrote: »

Isn't Tryptophan the amino acid that functions as a biochemical precursor to serotonin, a deficit of which can lead to depression? I think you can get it from sunflower seeds or egg white anyway.

Yes, you get it from most things we naturally eat and no beans/legumes etc which we generally eat more of.

I think you need to work a bit harder as a vegetarian to avoid nutritional deficiency, especially in essential amino acids. Not that it's impossible, it just doesn't come as naturally when you eat meat.

I don't know why that is, the things we eat and combine naturally have all the necessary amino acids,i mean what would we have to eat to not get them? Junk food only or something, which vegetarians generally eat less of.

Especially common is anaemia, two vegetarian friends of mine became anaemic when giving up meat.

I have the opposite, too much iron.
Time for more blood work.

And no meat does not equate with a healthier diet, it's quite easy to get a heart attack and diabetes eating veggie food, look at India, they have the highest rate of vegetarianism and the highest rate of diabetes.

Well it's not as simple as that, so many people there have extremely poor diets and 700 million of them are not vegetarian. They have over a billion people with like 40 million diabetics I think? I also think they have the most poeple in poverty of any country. Don't they eat a ridiculous amount of fried food and ghee type things in india when they get food at all?

Anyway, yeah you are right, being vegetarian does not automatically make you healthy, you can still eat crappy junk food that doesn't have gelatine or cochineal or whatever/other foods and possibly get a heart attack.

somethingwitty

If we weren't meant to eat meat it wouldn't taste so good.

El_Dangeroso

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Yes, you get it from most things we naturally eat and no beans/legumes etc which we generally eat more of.

Beans don't contain complete proteins and are limited in essential amino acids, you need to combine in order to increase the biological value, such as the lysine and leucine in beans on toast.. also the phytic acid in beans will inhibit mineral absorption, meaning you have to be more careful to get enough magnesium and calcium in the diet, especially if dairy is avoided.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I don't know why that is, the things we eat and combine naturally have all the necessary amino acids,i mean what would we have to eat to not get them? Junk food only or something, which vegetarians generally eat less of.

Do they? Where did you read that?

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I have the opposite, too much iron.
Time for more blood work.

Emm, that's not a good sign either maybe time to cut back on the supplements?

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Well it's not as simple as that, so many people there have extremely poor diets and 700 million of them are not vegetarian. They have over a billion people with like 40 million diabetics I think? I also think they have the most poeple in poverty of any country. Don't they eat a ridiculous amount of fried food and ghee type things in india when they get food at all?

Anyway, yeah you are right, being vegetarian does not automatically make you healthy, you can still eat crappy junk food that doesn't have gelatine or cochineal or whatever/other foods and possibly get a heart attack.

Type II Diabetes is actually a disease of the affluent in India, you can't have chronic high blood sugar if you don't have enough to eat to sustain it, it's increasing with their economic prosperity.

In my opinion, a lacto-ovo veggie diet can be healthy (vegan- ehh let's leave that to another discussion shall we? ) but I hope you agree that a diet including meat can be healthy too?

OutlawPete

Interesting topic. Keep my opinion to myself

Just thought people might find this guy interesting as he is 40 and just eats fruit, nuts, salads and greens. He say's that we have a 'free aminio acid pool' and so don't need to combine anything.


Tim's YouTube Page

RunningRaw.com

Another guy who is kinda similar allthough they disagree somewhat about the amount of fat in the diet is:

Dr. Douglas Graham

Or then there is the Raw Family ..

Or the The Garden Diet

Or finally there are those also that eat a Raw Meat Diet:

WeWant2Live.com ..

and

The Raw Paleo Diet

I studied nutrition myself and there is a lot of nonsense taught to people. I have suffered ill health and can honestly say that the only diet change that ever gave me strength was when I incresed raw foods or lightly cooked ones.

Now I tend to eat very little starch if at all (Two potatoes a week max, no rice, no corn, no breads) as it is almost impossible to eat raw grains. Humans must process grains far beyond their natural form in order to make them palatable / diegestable.

If you eat lots of pasta, pizza, chips, tortilla's, popcorn and rice and feel great then good-on ya is all I can say, wish I could - but the stuff just makes me ill. My stomach just starts to go to peices. I have tried Digestive Enzymes and the like which helped somewhat but now I just steer clear and about the only wheat / bread I eat is a nan bread from Zaytoon once a month or a slice of Steps of Rome pizza also once a month and even with that I can feel the nausea the next day.

My diet now is basically rare steaks, sashimi (sushi without the rice), raw goat's cheese, wild dry smoked salmon, tons of salads, veg juices (Juice on George's St are good for these), lot's of fruit, raw nuts (especially Macadamias).

Nico