Cannabis - The law doesn't work.

PipInTipp

Before anyone jumps down my throat, riddle me this;
Do you believe that the current laws on cannabis in Ireland work?
The laws that are in place are for the benefit of people of Ireland, however they don't, at all.

This is shown with high cannabis use through out the country with our teens.

Cannabis is not as terrible as it was once thought and portrayed, eg. Reefer Madness
It is proven & shown that cannabis is safer than the majority of legal drugs on the Irish market.
Cannabis does not cause death.

It's medicinal uses are the key to legalisation in the states - Which is only fair as punishment for simple possesion is usally improsenment - for millions.
Most are unaware that the medical value of cannabis was introduced to the wester world by an Irish man, William Brooke O'Shaughnessy (October 1808, Limerick, Ireland - January 1889).

Cannabis is widely available throughout the country - This is not new information.
It is also exceptionly easy to retrieve.

Cannabis will not go away legal or illegal.
However their are many dangers invoked with the current laws in place.

Contamination - This is of serious concern - Since it is widely a problem.
Silica, lead, diesal, glass, sand and even cocain are been added to cannabis - It is done as a method to gain profit b growers or dealers.
- In turn this is seriously damaging health to the majority of users - Teens to adults.

Cheap, afordable & safe medicine - Cannabis has gained much attention by the ill, as it is been used by many patients with a variety of different illnesses - Ranging from AIDS to Cancer.

The gateway to harder drugs - This is created by the laws that are in place. How? A cannabis user must make contact with dealers, while some only deal in cannabis many others do not & can essentially suggest other more dangers drugs to the user.

So their are a few problems in relation to current cannabis laws at present.

Yes their are dangers with cannabis - of course, however these dangers are much less threathening than those that are socially accepted.

Cannabis does not need to be smoked - Their are safer methods; such as a vaporiser - Vaporizers remove combustion and so remove the majority of toxins and tar. It can be eaten &/or drank.

Cannabis believe or not has the most uses compared to any other plant on the globe.
From bio-Diesal to textiles stronger & softer than cotton.

So what am I getting at?
Well since what is currently in place does not work, may I be bold enough to suggest regulation?

For example - Cannabis usable only by patients that could benefit from it.
These patients must get a license to have on their possesion if in the case of presciption. And must sign on retrieval. A simple protocol could be patients can not purchase cannabis more than 5 times in one month.
Licences to sell/use should be tough to get & easy to lose.

Tax it and create some jobs.

Any thoughts?

If you think what I've said is completely stupid please make a suggestion to find something that works!

Thanks for reading.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I think a Fine Gael TD suggested legalising it in the Dail recently. Tax it the way cigarettes are.

Would be great if Ireland did that, would force Northern IReland and therefore the rest of the UK to do the same, then Europe would likely follow suit.

Bob Z

im too stoned to reply


:cool:

zootroid

I don't think what you said is stupid, simply making something illegal doesn't mean people will stop using it, prohibition in the states being a perfect example.

But I can't ever see it being legalised, it would be political suicide for a politician to suggest it as he/she would be painted as being soft on drugs.

But I do think it should be decriminalised. The state spends a lot of resources policing this law, for example someone caught with a small amount going before the courts. Given the current climate this money could be better spent elsewhere, dealing with more serious crimes. But again, I don't think it will happen anytime soon.

sink

There was a thread on legalising cannabis only a few days ago. There are some very good arguments for legalising it and very little to support maintaining the prohibition, mostly unfounded arguments or dogmatic ideology.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055540409

jimmycrackcorm

Like smoking in general, Cannabis isn't good for you anyway. Might make you feel happy but still no vitamin pill.

Gu3rr1lla

It isnt against the law, its against the policy of the corporation aka Ireland. There's a difference between lawful and legal. There are ways of getting around their policies to smoking it lawfully. You can do it simply by claim of right. Just thought i'd let you know. Look into "freeman on the land"

Driseog

I agree, the current policy is outdated and is clearly not working. However legalising it I think is ignoring the problem here. This country has already a serious problem with one legal drug...alcohol, which it seems it is afraid to face up to. I think the question needs to be asked, why do we find it necessary to get out of our heads? What is it in our society that we see this as normal behaviour?
I know there are plenty of responible drinkers and shmokers which is fine but there are as many if not more that aren't. The myth that cannibis is less harmful is crap because I know a lot of lads that ended up in psych wards with paranoia and other sh1t. I do think its use for medicinal purposes should definetely be explored.
If the government wants to face up to the problem I think the only way is to come down real hard on the user like the Swedish approach to prostitution. If people were aware how harsh the consequences were going to be I guarantee they'd think twice. Meanwhile if we as a society change our behaviour towards our legal drugs then I wouldn't see a problem in looking into decriminalising it.
And as far as I know I think Holland are going to go back on their current system.

turgon

Driseog wrote: »

The myth that cannibis is less harmful is crap because I know a lot of lads that ended up in psych wards with paranoia and other sh1t.

Yes, but I know of a lot more alcoholic parents, and dysfunctional households because of it. I have been previously close to someone who was in an alcoholic family and it wasnt nice at all.

I think if you want to continue to ban cannabis one you have to come up with reasons not to ban alcohol. I think the latter is worse.

I started talking to my girlfriend the other day. At first I just goes "do you think cannabis should be legal?" and she started this huff puff against it. Then I just explained it to her about how we could tax it, control it and take criminality out of the cannabis industry. At the end she was at a loss!!

Edit: good link in my sig about this issue.

Driseog

turgon wrote: »

Yes, but I know of a lot more alcoholic parents, and dysfunctional households because of it. I have been previously close to someone who was in an alcoholic family and it wasnt nice at all.

I think if you want to continue to ban cannabis one you have to come up with reasons not to ban alcohol. I think the latter is worse.

I started talking to my girlfriend the other day. At first I just goes "do you think cannabis should be legal?" and she started this huff puff against it. Then I just explained it to her about how we could tax it, control it and take criminality out of the cannabis industry. At the end she was at a loss!!

Edit: good link in my sig about this issue.

Alcohol is worse. Thats why I believe we are in no fit state to start legalizing one drug when we already have major problems with another. Until we face up to our alcohol abuse culture we shouldn't even think about introducing another drug into the mix.

John_Mc

Decriminalising ALL drugs in Portugal WORKED. Check out a Time magazine report on the subject here

b12mearse

I don't they should legalise it, its easy enough to get anyway.
If they did, Ireland would become a sleazy sh**hole like amsterdam.:cool:

John_Mc

b12mearse wrote: »

I don't they should legalise it, its easy enough to get anyway.
If they did, Ireland would become a sleazy sh**hole like amsterdam.:cool:

So keep the revenue going to the criminals then is it? Yeah right, very sound logic you have there :rolleyes:

For point #2 you made, see the link I posted above.

sink

Using criminal law to tackle a public health issue is ridiculous, stupid and dangerous, it just leads to more crime and violence.

IMO the best way to tackle the drug issue is to completely legalise the softer drugs like Cannabis and tax them using that revenue educate the public about health concerns in the same way as tobacco & alcohol. Hard drugs such as Crystal and Heroin should be made available on prescription for addicts through GP's. It should be a goal of the public health system to decrease addiction and to replace dangerous drugs with safer alternatives in order to rehabilitate long term addicts, not to lock them up and criminalise them ensuring they'll never be able to hold down a job and forcing them to resort to real crime i.e. theft.

humanji

Driseog has the most important point and the only reason I think it shouldn't be legalised. There is too much of an alcohol problem in Ireland and that has to be sorted out first. Excess seems to be the Irish way and I couldn't trust the general populace with another drug.

If there could be some sort of widespread education on how to have fun without getting off you face which people listened to, then there might be a hope that legalising anything else could be considered.

sink

humanji wrote: »

Driseog has the most important point and the only reason I think it shouldn't be legalised. There is too much of an alcohol problem in Ireland and that has to be sorted out first. Excess seems to be the Irish way and I couldn't trust the general populace with another drug.

If there could be some sort of widespread education on how to have fun without getting off you face which people listened to, then there might be a hope that legalising anything else could be considered.

But all the evidence points towards criminalisation and tough penalties having little impact upon the dissemination of drugs and indicates that there will not be an upsurge in drug use due to legalisation. Inversely evidence points towards the fact that it is illegal and taboo seems to be a major attraction to new, particularly younger users as an act of rebellion.

humanji

In any other country, I'd agree. But not Ireland. Not until people cop onto themselves and learn to act responsibly.

Debunker

In any other country, I'd agree. But not Ireland. Not until people cop onto themselves and learn to act responsibly.

Legalising it would calm down some if it was more socially acceptable to smoke a joint.
Since; teenagers would find it less rebellious, others might stop advising to their friends to smoke just so they can try and feel accepted, and less power to drug lords/gangs.
People who smoke could get rehabilitated without worrying about being prosecuted.

Sincerely doubt Irelands going to go to hell in a basket if we legalised it.

phantom_lord

legalize it, tax it, regulate it. ship the moniez, reduce garda expenditure, reduce crime. easy game.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Debunker wrote: »

People who smoke could get rehabilitated without worrying about being prosecuted.

What do you mean here?

O'Coonassa

humanji wrote: »

In any other country, I'd agree. But not Ireland. Not until people cop onto themselves and learn to act responsibly.

Ah nanny, you'll decide when I'm mature enough will you?

Pedro K

I am against the legalising of cannabis, and I do believe it does lead onto other, but not neccessarily harder, drugs.

I have fallen out with more than one friend over opinions on drugs, but I remember one in particular.

A friend of mine many years back started smoking cannabis. I opposed straight away. Gave him all the cliched arguments but he continued anyway.

A few years down the line and the man is on a lot more than cannabis. I happened to run into him on a night out with my friends a while ago and there he was huffing poppers just to get a high. He's now doing anything just to get a buzz.
The mans brain is melted. He used to be very intelligent and articulate and now he can barely hold a point of conversation without straying off into some random, off the wall, seemingly philosophical topic. He thinks he knows all of the answers to lifes' problems, when seemingly he doesn't know the answer to his own. When you listen to him he just doesn't make sense anymore. It hit me hard because he used to be a good friend of mine.

The worst thing is, he's not the only one. I personally know quite a few people who have experimented with cannabis, and of these people I know, I can only think of two off the top of my head who didn't try something else eventually.

I have since become more liberal myself, in that I just let them get on with it because I know it's their choice. I don't let it bother me anymore. But from personal experience I do believe it's a gateway drug.

John_Mc wrote: »

Decriminalising ALL drugs in Portugal WORKED. Check out a Time magazine report on the subject here

John.

I must admit, that article was a very interesting read.

I had to laugh at this though,

The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined

Of course illegal drug use declined! It's not illegal anymore! :pac:

However, to the point. Being of Portuguese descent, I have visited the country many many times and been in plenty of areas of the country.
I have family still living in Lisbon, Guarda and Naves, and family friends still living in Quarteira in the Algarve.
I also noticed there still seems to be quite a problem with hard drug users in Lisbon (In particular lock-hards, ya know those feckers who tell ya where a parking space is and "direct" you in in return for some cash).

I would see this law as giving them free reign and being able to walk around with these drugs on them without fear of prosecution.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just skeptical, but I for one am against the legalisation of cannabis.

John_Mc

Pedro K wrote: »

I am against the legalising of cannabis, and I do believe it does lead onto other, but not neccessarily harder, drugs.

I have fallen out with more than one friend over opinions on drugs, but I remember one in particular.

A friend of mine many years back started smoking cannabis. I opposed straight away. Gave him all the cliched arguments but he continued anyway.

A few years down the line and the man is on a lot more than cannabis. I happened to run into him on a night out with my friends a while ago and there he was huffing poppers just to get a high. He's now doing anything just to get a buzz.
The mans brain is melted. He used to be very intelligent and articulate and now he can barely hold a point of conversation without straying off into some random, off the wall, seemingly philosophical topic. He thinks he knows all of the answers to lifes' problems, when seemingly he doesn't know the answer to his own. When you listen to him he just doesn't make sense anymore. It hit me hard because he used to be a good friend of mine.

The worst thing is, he's not the only one. I personally know quite a few people who have experimented with cannabis, and of these people I know, I can only think of two off the top of my head who didn't try something else eventually.

I have since become more liberal myself, in that I just let them get on with it because I know it's their choice. I don't let it bother me anymore. But from personal experience I do believe it's a gateway drug.

In fairness, you were obviously talking to him on a night night out,, after he's just taken poppers and who knows what else. It's hardly a good time to evaluate the effects of drugs!

Pedro K wrote: »

John.

I must admit, that article was a very interesting read.

I had to laugh at this though,


Of course illegal drug use declined! It's not illegal anymore! :pac:

However, to the point. Being of Portuguese descent, I have visited the country many many times and been in plenty of areas of the country.
I have family still living in Lisbon, Guarda and Naves, and family friends still living in Quarteira in the Algarve.
I also noticed there still seems to be quite a problem with hard drug users in Lisbon (In particular lock-hards, ya know those feckers who tell ya where a parking space is and "direct" you in in return for some cash).

I would see this law as giving them free reign and being able to walk around with these drugs on them without fear of prosecution.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just skeptical, but I for one am against the legalisation of cannabis.

Drug users are always going to be a problem. I think the point of decriminalisation is to accept that people are always going to do it, so offer the support, education & infrastructure so that youngsters never try it and addicts get the help they need to quit.

I don't think Lock-hards are unique to Lisbon or Portugal either. In the U.s the bums trying washing your windows whilst stopped at traffic lights!

Pedro K

John_Mc wrote: »

In fairness, you were obviously talking to him on a night night out,, after he's just taken poppers and who knows what else. It's hardly a good time to evaluate the effects of drugs!

ha! good point. Ah but the mans head always seems to be in the clouds now in general

Drug users are always going to be a problem. I think the point of decriminalisation is to accept that people are always going to do it, so offer the support, education & infrastructure so that youngsters never try it and addicts get the help they need to quit.

I don't think Lock-hards are unique to Lisbon or Portugal either. In the U.s the bums trying washing your windows whilst stopped at traffic lights!

Yeah I do think it might be a good approach to keeping young people off them in the future. But I'm still just a skeptic I guess.

I also acknowledge there's also always going to be a drug problem, but I guess what I was trying to say is that it seems very visible in Lisbon I know that's not the only city in the world where drug problems are visible.
After all, I am a dubliner, I see it every day.

And Yeh, the lock-hards

Where do I start! ha. I know they aren't unique to Portugal or Lisbon, but it was just an example I ran off the top of my head as it's very frequent in Lisbon. Sure we have our own versions at the LUAS ticket machines every day at peak hours, offering "assistance" in return for a few coins.


Or the Dublin classic, young howaya says to a man as he pulls up witha big dog in his car,

"'ere mister, gizza fiver and we'll look after your car"

Driver: "Ah no its fine, the dog will look after it for me!"

As he walked away, one of the skanger kids shouts after him

"Mister! Can yer dog put out fires?"

monellia

sink wrote: »

Using criminal law to tackle a public health issue is ridiculous, stupid and dangerous, it just leads to more crime and violence.

Exactly. People are saying that legalisation is just ignoring the problem, but people don’t seem to realise how delicate a health issue it is and how dangerous it is to just stamp a law on it. The state’s primary role should be to educate and rehabilitate, and the legislative authorities should have limited powers. The current “blind eye” approach is a really lazy policy which does doing nothing to discourage drug use.

Furthermore, it’s detrimental to the economy for people to keep buying on the black market. People are going to smoke no matter what, so you might as well use that to the state’s advantage. You’d think that, given the plenitude of money-grabbers in our govt, there’d be more politicians supporting the legalisation of soft drugs. :rolleyes: But of course, health comes first. I’m sort of in two minds about it. On one hand, taking take away the whole “forbidden fruit” factor would hopefully encourage users to exercise moderation, also resulting in less people resorting to crime to get a fix. But on the other hand, if cannabis were to be legalised there’d be a corporation for it which would mean the market would be filled with really tame **** with all sorts of additives making people want to buy more and it could escalate into a real health hazard, like with cigarettes.

Nodin

Pedro K wrote: »

A friend of mine many years back started smoking cannabis. I opposed straight away. Gave him all the cliched arguments but he continued anyway.

A few years down the line and the man is on a lot more than cannabis. I happened to run into him on a night out with my friends a while ago and there he was huffing poppers just to get a high. He's now doing anything just to get a buzz.
The mans brain is melted. He used to be very intelligent and articulate and now he can barely hold a point of conversation without straying off into some random, off the wall, seemingly philosophical topic. He thinks he knows all of the answers to lifes' problems, when seemingly he doesn't know the answer to his own. When you listen to him he just doesn't make sense anymore. It hit me hard because he used to be a good friend of mine.

Some people eat to excess, some drink to excess and some do drugs to excess. Others have addictive personalties - Junkie alcoholics are not uncommon. Alcoholics who have kicked the booze have on occassion succumbed to gambling. It doesn't make sense to run society for the minority who are either afflicted or unable to excercise restraint.

Pedro K

Nodin wrote: »

Some people eat to excess, some drink to excess and some do drugs to excess. Others have addictive personalties - Junkie alcoholics are not uncommon. Alcoholics who have kicked the booze have on occassion succumbed to gambling. It doesn't make sense to run society for the minority who are either afflicted or unable to excercise restraint.

Excuse my ignorance on the matter, but when it comes to drugs, is it actually the minority who can't exercise restraint? If so, where are you getting this info from?

Nodin

Pedro K wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance on the matter, but when it comes to drugs, is it actually the minority who can't exercise restraint?

Most people don't spend 7 days a week drunk or stoned as far as I've noticed.....

Pedro K

Nodin wrote: »

Most people don't spend 7 days a week drunk or stoned as far as I've noticed.....

Most people don't, obviously.

The question I asked is do most drug users?
If you take all drug users and find out who spends what amount of time strung out, or who does what to just to get their drugs, i wonder what kind of statistics you'd come up with.

I also wonder how many people have ever just tried cannabis and nothing else, and then how many people regularly smoke cannabis and have never tried or wanted to try something else.

O'Coonassa

Pedro K wrote: »

I am against the legalising of cannabis, and I do believe it does lead onto other, but not neccessarily harder, drugs.

Anybody who I know who decided to smoke the Killer Weed actually started out on caffeine before moving onto alcohol and THEN cannabis. Maybe we should make coffee illegal?

Denerick

Legalise it, but restrict it to a very few amount of stores. Maybe only in certain pharmacy's in the bigger cities like Dublin and Cork. THe worst possible thing is when it starts becoming available in your local tesco - I for one would crack under that pressure and start smoking it like ordinary cigarettes, and Cannabis really doesn't agree with me (Makes me very paranoid) Also tax the high heaven out of it.

Prohibition doesn't work anyway, all it is is a boon for organised crime. Take those Euro's out of the scumbags pockets.