Eircom phones/mobile phones/emergencies

zing zong

as you know eircom are removing the majority of payphones from our streets, leaving a number rural areas with no payphones at all

aswell as that, a lot of homes today have no landline at all, with less and less istalling them every year, almost every adult today uses a mobile phone

eircom asfar as i know have their own generators for electricity, hence why we could still make calls when the ESB was down in an area, or when the ESB went on strike

so my question is this, do mobile phones masts rely on the grid and if so do these have their own generators? as we know the mobiles need to be charged, and if the masts do rely on the grid and there is a large ESB strike in the future, or worse, a bigger "incident" to leave us without electricity for a number of days we would have a really tough time contacting each other, bad news if you have an emergency

can anybody shed some light on this?

Solair

Fixed line telephone exchanges have a very serious battery which is used to provide the lines with DC power. That is constantly charged by the ESB mains, in the event of ESB mains failure, there is normally a diesel generator in the building too, which can keep the exchange running for a while.

Mobile phone sites generally have similar protections, including substantial UPS (uninterruptable power supply) and diesel generator back up.

So, over all, I wouldn't get too worried!

The main risk would be that you wouldn't be able to charge your phone !

ironclaw

zing zong wrote: »

so my question is this, do mobile phones masts rely on the grid and if so do these have their own generators? as we know the mobiles need to be charged, and if the masts do rely on the grid and there is a large ESB strike in the future, or worse, a bigger "incident" to leave us without electricity for a number of days we would have a really tough time contacting each other, bad news if you have an emergency

can anybody shed some light on this?

As far as I know, I could be wrong, when you dial 112 / 999, your phone automatically searches for the strongest net signal e.g. Vodafone / Meteor / O2 and uses that network. So if one is down you should be able to get through.

zing zong

Solair wrote: »

Fixed line telephone exchanges have a very serious battery which is used to provide the lines with DC power. That is constantly charged by the ESB mains, in the event of ESB mains failure, there is normally a diesel generator in the building too, which can keep the exchange running for a while.

Mobile phone sites generally have similar protections, including substantial UPS (uninterruptable power supply) and diesel generator back up.

So, over all, I wouldn't get too worried!

The main risk would be that you wouldn't be able to charge your phone !

cheers for the input Solair

however i am looking for info that is a little more definate and specific to us here in ireland.
i have emailed meteor, all the info i could get was "we arent sure" which is very reassuring, and the others said they would get back to me, and as yet have not, i mailed them weeks ago.

so either the info is private or they do not know either, all the same its no use to people in the real world. i couldnt find anything online so ive posted here in the hope that maybe someone knows for sure what the story is or could at least point me in the right direction to find out

and i agree, the charging of the phones themselves is the other half of the problem regardless of the situation with the masts, as the vast majority of people do not have access to generators

zing zong

ironclaw wrote: »

As far as I know, I could be wrong, when you dial 112 / 999, your phone automatically searches for the strongest net signal e.g. Vodafone / Meteor / O2 and uses that network. So if one is down you should be able to get through.

thanks ironclaw

im aware of the fact that any/all carriers will take 999 calls which is grand for calls of that type, but the "bigger incident" i mentioned, and i should have been clearer im sorry, is perhaps civil unrest or war, 999 wont be of any use when trying to contact people to find out info on food, safe places etc

kirving

Solair is right in saying that there are battery backups for short interuptions and generators for longer power cuts for both exchanges and masts.

There a lot of mobile phone masts on eircom property(from the times when eircom owned eircell), it makes a lot of sense to locate them together where possible so they can link in with each other if there is a power failure so only one set of batters + generator is needed.

zing zong

i would still like to find out for definate, and it still doesnt take care of the fact that mobiles need to be charged which is the other half of the problem

as it is now (and not for much longer unfortunately) we have public payphones which are perfect in that if we are without electricity eircom have the ability to power the line so we can contact each other,

but if we are left with a mobile only system, which looks like it could be the case soon, we are pretty much in the deep end with out electricity

rmacm

zing zong wrote: »

cheers for the input Solair

however i am looking for info that is a little more definate and specific to us here in ireland.
i have emailed meteor, all the info i could get was "we arent sure" which is very reassuring, and the others said they would get back to me, and as yet have not, i mailed them weeks ago.

so either the info is private or they do not know either, all the same its no use to people in the real world. i couldnt find anything online so ive posted here in the hope that maybe someone knows for sure what the story is or could at least point me in the right direction to find out

and i agree, the charging of the phones themselves is the other half of the problem regardless of the situation with the masts, as the vast majority of people do not have access to generators

For wireline exchanges (or at least the ones I've been in) there is a battery back up which as Solair said gets charged by the ESB supply (this explains why you can still make landline calls even the ESB supply is down).

As for mobile infrastructure I'm not so sure, I could probably find out though but it may take a few days as I'm not in Ireland at the moment. What I do know is that the MSC/MSS part of the mobile network is based on the same hardware as the wireline part (I should mention that this is specific to Ericsson equipment because I work for them and it's what I know) so it probably has the same kind of backup power.

zing zong wrote: »

thanks ironclaw

im aware of the fact that any/all carriers will take 999 calls which is grand for calls of that type, but the "bigger incident" i mentioned, and i should have been clearer im sorry, is perhaps civil unrest or war, 999 wont be of any use when trying to contact people to find out info on food, safe places etc

The Ericsson AXE exchanges which is what wireline and mobile Ericsson exchanges are built on have the ability to prioritise certain types of calls e.g. 999/112 so the numbers can be used in emergency situations and calls to those numbers and be prioritised over other calls.

ynotdu

There are contingency plans in place in case of extreme emergencies.

Unfortunatly it is a case of "The needs of the many exceed the needs of the few"

you proably have seen footage of suspected*swine flu* people being confined to their homes=only a small taste of what a national emergency would be like:eek:

A recent documentry on Discovery showed how even on 9/11 the Prez could not adress the nation from air force one!(incredible that AF1 was conceived to deal with even a nucleur war:eek:.If discovery ch is to be believed,in a crisis the Prez could do so now)

basicly in extreme situations or breakdown of society us Joe soaps would be on our own:eek:

zing zong

RMACM that would be really excellent, and i would really appriciate it, it would give me and others peace of mind

rmacm

zing zong wrote: »

i would still like to find out for definate, and it still doesnt take care of the fact that mobiles need to be charged which is the other half of the problem

There's not much that can be done about charging mobiles unfortunately when your electricity supply dies you're **** out of luck unless you have some kind of generator back up.

zing zong wrote: »

as it is now (and not for much longer unfortunately) we have public payphones which are perfect in that if we are without electricity eircom have the ability to power the line so we can contact each other,

That's only as long as battery back up lasts of how long generators can be fuelled for.....and lets say you're talking a worst case senario kind of situation telephone exchanges are probably going to be last things people are thinking about.

zing zong wrote: »

but if we are left with a mobile only system, which looks like it could be the case soon, we are pretty much in the deep end with out electricity

See above we'd be pretty **** out of luck even with land lines because they need power too and they're only going to last as long as the back up power supply can be maintained.

zing zong

ynotdu wrote: »

There are contingency plans in place in case of extreme emergencies.

Unfortunatly it is a case of "The needs of the many exceed the needs of the few"

you proably have seen footage of suspected*swine flu* people being confined to their homes=only a small taste of what a national emergency would be like:eek:

A recent documentry on Discovery showed how even on 9/11 the Prez could not adress the nation from air force one!(incredible that AF1 was conceived to deal with even a nucleur war:eek:.If discovery ch is to be believed,in a crisis the Prez could do so now)

basicly in extreme situations or breakdown of society us Joe soaps would be on our own:eek:

which is exactly why i want to find out what the story is, because the landline system at the moment for us "joe soaps" is far more reliable than the mobile system in the event of the electricity going down so that we could exchange info, so the payphones being removed is a really stupid idea

as for swine flu, its a farce, much the same as SARS and bird flu, but thats a whole other story

rmacm

hehe just a polite pointer (speaking with my Mod hat on).....this is not the Conspiracy Theories forum so I'd prefer if that discussion were left for there. Like I said the wireline system is only reliable as long as the back up batteries in the exchanges can be charged and also if there is a generator back up that will only last as long as it can be refuelled.

zing zong

@rmacm

"There's not much that can be done about charging mobiles unfortunately when your electricity supply dies you're **** out of luck unless you have some kind of generator back up."

agreed, but hopefully i could arrange a generator or solar backup over time

"That's only as long as battery back up lasts of how long generators can be fuelled for.....and lets say you're talking a worst case senario kind of situation telephone exchanges are probably going to be last things people are thinking about."

thats probably true, but it should be high on the list, especially when it comes to getting/giving important info

"See above we'd be pretty **** out of luck even with land lines because they need power too and they're only going to last as long as the back up power supply can be maintained."

surely we could get a few weeks from it tho? or would they even use diesel/petrol generators along with grid charged batteries?

ynotdu

agree about the swine flu(at least for now it is i hope sensationalism)

There are pre-charged emergency batteries for certain mobiles.

There are mobile phones available that can be charged by solar power.

Question is who would answer 999/112 since like everybody else the operators would be with their families,in their church,or if warning of the impending Armageddon came during their shift too pissed:)

zing zong

as rmacm said, this isnt a conspiracy thread

and im not dwelling on 999/112 calls at all, no use during war/civil unrest anyway

rmacm

Gonna come back to this tomorrow zing zong and anyone else who's interested....had a long day today and I'm pretty banjoed so it's time for some sleep.

zing zong

cheers really appriciate it!:)

ynotdu

It is a fact that Air force one did not have the technology for the president to adress the nation on 9/11,not a conspiracy theory.

zing zong

ynotdu wrote: »

It is a fact that Air force one did not have the technology for the president to adress the nation on 9/11,not a conspiracy theory.

fine, but it has nothing to do with this thread my friend

ynotdu

zing zong wrote: »

as you know eircom are removing the majority of payphones from our streets, leaving a number rural areas with no payphones at all

aswell as that, a lot of homes today have no landline at all, with less and less istalling them every year, almost every adult today uses a mobile phone

eircom asfar as i know have their own generators for electricity, hence why we could still make calls when the ESB was down in an area, or when the ESB went on strike

so my question is this, do mobile phones masts rely on the grid and if so do these have their own generators? as we know the mobiles need to be charged, and if the masts do rely on the grid and there is a large ESB strike in the future, or worse, a bigger "incident" to leave us without electricity for a number of days we would have a really tough time contacting each other, bad news if you have an emergency

can anybody shed some light on this?

So exactly what did you mean by "bigger incident" in your post above?
My friend.

I agree public phones should be kept even at the price of 100% subsidy.many times I used them for an emergency.they are a public service and should be treated as so.

zing zong

ynotdu wrote: »

So exactly what did you mean by "bigger incident" in your post above?
My friend.

I agree public phones should be kept even at the price of 100% subsidy.many times I used them for an emergency.they are a public service and should be treated as so.

in an earlier post i said by bigger incident i mean civil unrest or war. as for the payphones, im totally with you on that, been in the same boat as you before, and should be kept around as a public service

but the sad part is the phones are already inplace, and are being taken away

ynotdu

zing zong wrote: »

in an earlier post i said by bigger incident i mean civil unrest or war. as for the payphones, im totally with you on that, been in the same boat as you before, and should be kept around as a public service

but the sad part is the phones are already inplace, and are being taken away

Civil unrest or war would pretty much wipe out normal comunications anyway(most recent example proably Kosovo,lost their national grid,mobile masts&gas supply)come to think of it Gazza strip prob the most recent.


We agree on almost everything(i,m from an high density area so i would just have to stop someone in the street or knock a neighbours door until they woke up(if justified)

To take payphones from Rural area,s would cause lives and isolate the isolated even more,it is a shocking inditement of our society that as you say public phones are already there but being removed.

zing zong

ynotdu wrote: »

Civil unrest or war would pretty much wipe out normal comunications anyway(most recent example proably Kosovo,lost their national grid,mobile masts&gas supply)come to think of it Gazza strip prob the most recent.


We agree on almost everything(i,m from an high density area so i would just have to stop someone in the street or knock a neighbours door until they woke up(if justified)

To take payphones from Rural area,s would cause lives and isolate the isolated even more,it is a shocking inditement of our society that as you say public phones are already there but being removed.

well yes it would damage communications but not instantly, it would be a little gradual i imagine (hope), over a few days or weeks atleast

i live in a city myself, so while i agree we could get info from the people close at hand, the majority where i live are idiots, and i would still sooner have the ability to contact family and friends first who arent in my area, and would be a little more proactive in "deep sh*t" situations

center15

zing zong wrote: »

which is exactly why i want to find out what the story is, because the landline system at the moment for us "joe soaps" is far more reliable than the mobile system in the event of the electricity going down so that we could exchange info, so the payphones being removed is a really stupid idea

as for swine flu, its a farce, much the same as SARS and bird flu, but thats a whole other story

Whats the point in keeping payphone they wouldn't work either if the exchanges are down?

zing zong

center15 wrote: »

Whats the point in keeping payphone they wouldn't work either if the exchanges are down?

but they are alot more reliable in a situation of no electricity then mobiles (over time)

Solair

rmacm wrote: »

For wireline exchanges (or at least the ones I've been in) there is a battery back up which as Solair said gets charged by the ESB supply (this explains why you can still make landline calls even the ESB supply is down).

As for mobile infrastructure I'm not so sure, I could probably find out though but it may take a few days as I'm not in Ireland at the moment. What I do know is that the MSC/MSS part of the mobile network is based on the same hardware as the wireline part (I should mention that this is specific to Ericsson equipment because I work for them and it's what I know) so it probably has the same kind of backup power.



The Ericsson AXE exchanges which is what wireline and mobile Ericsson exchanges are built on have the ability to prioritise certain types of calls e.g. 999/112 so the numbers can be used in emergency situations and calls to those numbers and be prioritised over other calls.

Yup, that's basically it.

There are a few other equipment vendors used though too.


i.e. eircom use Ericsson AXE and Alcatel-Lucent E10 wireline switches. They're similarly specified. All wireline exchanges have fairly significant protection against power failure, and also against major incidents. The network's capable of surviving various major disasters. They're designed to be very robust!

These switches can run for decades without rebooting!

You have to remember many of these networks were designed in the 1970s and 80s during the height of the Cold War and the Northern Irish troubles.

They're 100% digital, but they're pretty old-school and very robust - all the functions are backed up multiple times so, in the event of any kind of failure, they can continue working, just at slightly reduced capacity.

They're actually extremely reliable pieces of equipment.

The various Irish mobile operators use switching equipment including Ericsson AXE, Nortel (DMS) and Alcatel-Lucent. Again, all of these systems have fairly serious back-up capability and in the event of one network being down, your phone will always route a 112 call over any available GSM signal, regardless of who you are subscribed to.

So, you've pretty serious redundancy!

Always remember to dial 112 though rather than 999, the GSM networks always route these SOS calls regardless of account status, sim card validity etc etc.

zing zong

cheers for all that solair

but there i have no doubt regarding the landlines, hence my post,

its the ability to use mobiles and how long their back up would last in the event of no electricity is the issue at this stage

and while im delighted at how reliable landlines are, they are dissappearing sadly. im also aware of 999/112 as stated in earlier posts, these numbers arent of much use in times of "real" trouble tho

maybe i should invest in solar powered CB radio ha ha :pac:

emaherx

If mobile masts have the same backup power as fixed line exchanges, then why would fixed line pay phones be any more useful?

A Mobile phone battery has about a weeks worth of power.
Can be charged in a Car, or from any 12v supply using standard car charger.
you could buy a dynamo charger or solar charger if you are really paranoid.
If you don't have a car/ car charger your nearest neighbor with one is probably nearer than a pay phone. If you can't go to a neighbor in case of emergency then it may already too late for society in your part of the world.

As far as house phones go:
most phones in people houses these days are cordless and the base stations require mains power any way.

ironclaw

zing zong wrote: »

but if we are left with a mobile only system, which looks like it could be the case soon, we are pretty much in the deep end with out electricity

Mobile phones link into the wire systems. I doubt 112 / 999 centers have huge redundany e.g Sat links, direct GSM access.


At the end of the day, what piece of mind is to be gain by knowing the phone system will work? During 9/11 NYC's 911 system went down with a population of 8.3 million in addition to a super network because of Wall Street etc. What hope has Ireland?

In addition, I don't really understand how probing this thread has got into redundancy settings.

zing zong

emaherx wrote: »

If mobile masts have the same backup power as fixed line exchanges, then why would fixed line pay phones be any more useful?

A Mobile phone battery has about a weeks worth of power.
Can be charged in a Car, or from any 12v supply using standard car charger.
you could buy a dynamo charger or solar charger if you are really paranoid.
If you don't have a car/ car charger your nearest neighbor with one is probably nearer than a pay phone. If you can't go to a neighbor in case of emergency then it may already too late for society in your part of the world.

As far as house phones go:
most phones in people houses these days are cordless and the base stations require mains power any way.

we are still not sure for how long the back up power can be generated, so for now it seems that landlines/payphones seem more reliable, for a time atleast

a mobile phone will last a week for those that dont use it, otherwise 2/3 days, and during a time of emergency like war/civil unrest, you'll use it alot, so you might get a day or two, tops

yes i am considering solar power, tho these posts are not "paranoid" war actually happens (news to you??)

as for charging by car, it may not be as easy as you imagine, during war

as for getting to a neighbour, it is friends and family i ,and im sure others would be more concerned about, in my part of the world

yes a good amount of phones are cordless, tho not most, and payphones obviously are not. the issue is, payphones/landlines are here but are dissapearing, when as far as this post has shown, are more reliable