Should prostitution be legal?

Dark_lord_ire

simple answer yes it should be legal. No matter what cant stop it so might as well make it legal and give the girls legal protection and also pay tax. I dont think less of girls in that trade so what if they do does it effect me ? not a bit

SeanW

Lizzykins wrote: »

Well it's not a career move I'd be happy for my girls to make. I read an article in the last few days that dispels the myth of the "happy hooker" and "financial independence". Probably was in the Irish Times but I'm not going looking for it.

If Ruhama was involved in that article, it's biased. It's a bit like asking Anjem Choudary or the Muslim Brotherhood for comment on Western lifestyles. Both will be spiteful, vindictive and domineering with the objective of imposing certain orders on other peoples lives. I view religious nutcases and elements of the far left as two sides of the same evil coin, the same ill wind of giving busybodies the authority to dictate and interfere in other peoples business. Just pick your ideology, "left" wing socialists, communists, feminists or eco-whackos) or "right" wing ideologies, ultra-nationalism, warmongering, violation of civil liberties, police brutality, rigid religious order.
But at the end of the day, it's all the same, whether it's feminist nutcases, eco-whackos, radical religious people clerics or priests with their imaginary friends, little Hitlers etc.

Make no mistake prostitution does nothing for ones self esteem.

Neither does working in McDonalds. Or driving a garbage truck. Should we outlaw that too?

,8,1 wrote: »

But at the end of the day the question is one of morality. Do you think prostitution is a moral activity to be fully condoned by the law?

I don't think the State has any business sanctioning "moral" activity or otherwise - in a free society the one of the few roles of the State is to protect citizens from a violation of their rights by others, either fellow citizens or foreign enemies, or indeed the State itself.

It has no business regulating peoples private affairs, regulating consenting bedroom conduct, expanding the Nanny State, telling people (at least people of age) what to smoke, what to drink etc.

As to the question of morality:
Lets turn the question around, and ask of the State: if you catch a teenager smoking weed, is it moral to throw him/her in jail, giving them a criminal record that will potentially ruin their life? In some countries, not only will the criminal record haunt the teenager for life, but the actual prison time will also be traumatic as conditions can be extremely difficult.

If the State imposes a punishment that does not fit the "crime" is that morally defensible?

If for example one of the "happy hookers" willingly accepts a proposition from a 'John' and they conclude their business in a way that does not infringe on the rights of anyone else, can you morally defend any action the State may take against either party?

Sweden seems to be run by far leftists and feminists so they can justify a "demonise the man" approach, but I really have to wonder if, like alcohol in the U.S. in the 1930s, our silly drug wars today, Prohibition is not the solution, but the problem.

Affable

AARRRGH wrote: »

Incest is known to cause birth defects, and as a result it is illegal.

Not illegal for muslims to marry cousins and that disturbs me greatly.

Affable

SeanW wrote: »

Neither does working in McDonalds. Or driving a garbage truck. Should we outlaw that too?
.

Precisely. You got more indpendence as a prossie than you do stuck in a baseball cap at Mcdonalds stuffing stuff into bags for people.

Joey the lips

SeanW wrote: »

Neither does working in McDonalds. Or driving a garbage truck. Should we outlaw that too? quote]

Thats a daft comparrision, sex is violation if your in prostitution. The only violation in macdonalds is the rish of a smack of a handburger, equally prostitution operates on 2 levels

1. The legal trade, which is generally paid high and has the associated life associated
2. The illegal trade where women are sold into it and get nothing more than there life.

The only risks associated with macdonalds in not getting your star or obesety..


While working in macdonalds migh be demeaning towards the 15 years in school and the college degree it will not leave you feeling dirty seedy and the sense of being unclean, finally if you tell you fella you work in macdonalds he will probably ask you to bring home a big mac. If you tell him you were a prostitute and sleep with 5 men a night he will prob look for the door!

turgon

Joey the lips wrote: »

1. The legal trade, which is generally paid high and has the associated life associated
2. The illegal trade where women are sold into it and get nothing more than there life.

Supposing Im hiring a whore. Do you really think I will want to go down some rat infested back ally just to save some money rather than go into a safe and clean brothel?

ionix5891

turgon wrote: »

Supposing Im hiring a whore. Do you really think I will want to go down some rat infested back ally just to save some money rather than go into a safe and clean brothel?

Yah a "Guaranteed Irish" stamp on the brothel doors? that be something


am I the only one that notices the disrespect and stereotyping from some of the anti-prostitution posters here, why? are they somehow subhuman??

yes there is a black market and human trafficking but instead of painting everyone involved in this as evil and bad (the world is not a simple black and white) lets treat people with respect, especially if its their choice


its more or less the same as legalizing cannabis the arguments here

turgon

Basically ionxix5891, I think what is going on here is "excuse finding". These people are clearly anti-prostitution from a moral perspective. However when faced with the fact that it does not concern them when two people engage in this kind of consensual activity they try and backtrack to find excuses why it should be banned.

So you get rubbish like the black market. Because I suppose the black market will be so bigger when prostitution is legalized

As you said, its like the debate on marijuana. People cant admit its none of their buisness so they backtrack and try and find some excuse to come out with.

I think fundamentally people have a predisposition to wanting everyone to think and act the way they want them too.

AARRRGH

,8,1 wrote: »

Anti-porn/prostitution is mischaracterised as a feminist interest.

It is a feminism interest. Quite a large number of feminists subscribe to the anti-porn philosophy.

And unfortunately, it seems the most extreme feminists are the ones who are most vocal and who have positions of power in our Universities.

For example, I know a girl who left her womens studies course because she was sick of the extreme views of her feminist professors. This included a number of them who were lesbian "by choice" because no man was good enough for them. Mental stuff.

I know there are pro-porn feminists as well though.

Joey the lips wrote: »

They usually have no healthcare or std checks and usually are forced to have sex without condoms.

This is a myth.

Dannyboy83

I would think its a good idea, aside from one major reservation, anyone who has been to Amsterdam knows well how many lowlifes you have hanging around, trying to peddle drugs and hustle people, trying to rob you etc.
The Muslims & the Africans stick out in particular, you see them a mile off and they are the worst.
They swarm around you, like flies on ****.

The police seem to contain it really well over there and don't take any crap, I saw them hand out a serious violent ass kicking when one tourist was attacked, but I'd honestly doubt the Irish police could manage it as well as the Dutch police.
Perhaps this is related to legalised cannibis and mushrooms more than the prostitution but that was the single biggest turn off about Amsterdam for me and one of the reasons I wouldn't want to go back there.

Joey the lips wrote: »

The Dutch thought by legalising prostitution it would allow its regulation. This is not the case. Amsterdam is the largest capital in europe for illegal, criminal prostitution where women work not for a wage but for there life. They usually have no healthcare or std checks and usually are forced to have sex without condoms.

2 points
A) That is happening throughout the European Union already anyway
It is inevitable that Amsterdam will hold that title, when Amsterdam is the sex capital of Europe and prostitution is illegal everywhere else. Its a party city and people going there are gonna throw caution to the wind more than they would if they were going to Paris or Rome.
I've heard Montreal in Canada is the same.
If its illegal to drink alcohol anywhere in Europe except Dublin, then you are gonna find all varieties of alcohol, legal and non-legal in Dublin because people are going there looking for 1 thing. If its legal to drink alcohol in a number of places, then people tend to act a bit less crazy because they are not being prohibited.

Just my 2c.

turgon

Apparently its legal in Germany too

ionix5891

turgon wrote: »

Apparently its legal in Germany too

it is

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brothels-cut-prices-to-beat-the-recession-1674400.html

turgon

I was donating blood last night for the first time and one of the questions was have you been abroad the last 12 months. I was, but I didnt mention that Frankfurt was the location of my vacation, and especcially the fact that the hostel I stayed in was around the corner form the red-light district Obviously I didnt get up to anything, evidenced by the fact that I did donate blood.

Someone mentioned that the black market rate would be lower, but the article there said that there was a brothel offering 6 hours of food, drink and sex for only €70 :eek:

AARRRGH

turgon wrote: »

there was a brothel offering 6 hours of food, drink and sex for only €70 :eek:

Even if you remove the sex bit, it's still a good deal!

P. Breathnach

AARRRGH wrote: »

Even if you remove the sex bit, it's still a good deal!

Possibly a better deal.

ionix5891

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Possibly a better deal.

depends whether one likes dessert?

AARRRGH

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Possibly a better deal.

Ah you could just look at their boobs.

getz

turgon wrote: »

Apparently its legal in Germany too

its the law in italy -women named Mary may not work as prostitutes

Joey the lips

turgon wrote: »

Supposing Im hiring a whore. Do you really think I will want to go down some rat infested back ally just to save some money rather than go into a safe and clean brothel?

You have standard thats good! but I am not spouting this is factual written evidence of the dutch market. For every legal trade selling something at 100 euro there is someone offering the illegal at 50. I am not trying to convience you of my opinion I am trying to help you with the facts.

ionix5891

Joey the lips wrote: »

You have standard thats good! but I am not spouting this is factual written evidence of the dutch market. For every legal trade selling something at 100 euro there is someone offering the illegal at 50. I am not trying to convience you of my opinion I am trying to help you with the facts.

do you honestly think someone would cheap out on few guid when there huge risks of getting an STI if you do so?

actually anyone who does cheap out in that manner probably deserves what they get

Joey the lips

ionix5891 wrote: »

do you honestly think someone would cheap out on few guid when there huge risks of getting an STI if you do so?

actually anyone who does cheap out in that manner probably deserves what they get

No i dont but this research exists. How does it work. If you pay for prostitution once a year you will pay top dollar cause you want it good but if you use prostitution 2 - 3 times a week your budject will be tight so you will accept less standard. This is why you hear many women having regular clients.

again if you open your mind to the logic you will appreciate it. I for my part thought it all well till i read the research but my opinion has changed to the middle if you catch my drift!

P. Breathnach

ionix5891 wrote: »

do you honestly think someone would cheap out on few guid when there huge risks of getting an STI if you do so?

It's like any market: there will be buyers at different price and quality levels.

actually anyone who does cheap out in that manner probably deserves what they get

That's a bit harsh. [What makes me think of Ryanair?]

ionix5891

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's like any market: there will be buyers at different price and quality levels.



That's a bit harsh. [What makes me think of Ryanair?]

it is harsh but theres an old saying

caveat emptor

at least with legal prostitution you can setup an organization to screen licensed "practitioners" for STIs etc

legalizing prostitution like legalizing weed wont solve all problems, might create few new ones, BUT IT WILL DECREASE EXISTING PROBLEMS

putting on blinkers wont make these issue go away from society

.

Joey the lips

ionix5891 wrote: »

it is harsh but theres an old saying

caveat emptor

Whats buyer beware got to do the the illegal exploitation of women?? You have to start using resonable logic. If you hook up with a dirty std ridden prostitute(man or women) she either does not give a dam! She either has no self esteme! Shes either paid so little! or she is being exploited! Why else. Buy the logic on this thread it's

" Well you got into prostitution now you have an std its your own fault"

You seriously have to open your minds to exploitation. It exists!

ionix5891

Joey the lips wrote: »

You seriously have to open your minds to exploitation. It exists!

its much harder to exploit when theres less of a crowd

AARRRGH

Joey the lips wrote: »

exploitation

Why is it exploitation?

ionix5891

AARRRGH wrote: »

Why is it exploitation?

god said so?

i find it funny the attitude of religious groups towards sex and prostitution and gay/lesbian issues considering the Bible has a passages about rape and incest

http://listverse.com/religion/top-6-incestuous-relationships-in-the-bible/



actually scrap that the whole position on sex and especially condom use is sickening and is leading to an AIDS empidemic in certain countries where 30% of the population are now infected :mad:



more passages from bible about rape and incest to keep the religious posters here thinking about checking their own backyard first and before embarking on a moral crusade :rolleyes:

Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?

Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?


Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".

David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

Once again God approves of forcible rape.

Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Joey the lips

ionix5891 wrote: »

its much harder to exploit when theres less of a crowd

I apologise for my misunderstanding but this makes no sense to me!

Joey the lips

AARRRGH wrote: »

Why is it exploitation?

and if you need to ask this you have not been following the thread which prob means your bored and just want an answer. I am not the man to explain. just go back a few pages and read forward

ie for every perfect market there always operates an imperfect market a fact of economics. Hope this makes sense cheers:)

ionix5891

Joey the lips wrote: »

I apologise for my misunderstanding but this makes no sense to me!

ok lets say you have 100 prostitutes in dublin (an underestimate but hey)

prostitution is legalised 90% are now working in a licensed brothel and pay taxes and are STI checked etc (to sum up industry is supervised)

10% might choose to work from back alleys


now it wont stop trafficking and abuse but it would greatly reduce it as the whole industry is not illegal now and they are being supervised by relevant authorities

basically a carrot and stick approach not all stick

capche?