Should prostitution be legal?

AARRRGH · 01-05-2009 2:37pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

and if you need to ask this you have not been following the thread which prob means your bored and just want an answer. I am not the man to explain. just go back a few pages and read forward

ie for every perfect market there always operates an imperfect market a fact of economics. Hope this makes sense cheers:)

I've read the entire thread. I know the prostitution industry very well.

IF prostitution is full legalised, and a black market blossoms, why do you feel the women in the black market will be exploited?

Do you feel the women who work as prostitutes in Ireland are currently being exploited?

If so, how are they being exploited?

Joey the lips · 01-05-2009 2:40pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

ok lets say you have 100 prostitutes in dublin (an underestimate but hey)

prostitution is legalised 90% are now working in a licensed brothel and pay taxes and are STI checked etc (to sum up industry is supervised)

10% might choose to work from back alleys

now it wont stop trafficking and abuse but it would greatly reduce it as the whole industry is not illegal now and they are being supervised by relevant authorities

basically a carrot and stick approach not all stick

capche?

Perfectly but her is the problem by international standards if 90% works legally 180% will be forced. Thats the logic you need to think with. Its not the women that chooses to work back alley its the women thats forced!

Where do you think all the illegal women on containers end up ( besides the social welfare

)

You need to think around the logic. Its not a logicol industry!

Capche!

Joey the lips · 01-05-2009 2:43pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

I've read the entire thread. I know the prostitution industry very well.

IF prostitution is full legalised, and a black market blossoms, why do you feel the women in the black market will be exploited?

Do you feel the women who work as prostitutes in Ireland are currently being exploited?

If so, how are they being exploited?

because you assume that the black market is like the lad selling cheap firworks at halloween its not the black market is forced labour!

again I am defending the prostitution trade. I am not out to represent it. I am just trying to help all us randy men understand that exploitation exists and its only silution is to stem demand....

AARRRGH · 01-05-2009 2:48pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

the black market is forced labour!

How?

What are you basing this on?

ronbyrne2005 · 01-05-2009 2:52pm

German system of sex clubs/brothels seems to work very well. The Artemis in centre of Berlin looks mad. Google it's website, it's advertised as a "wellness" Club

. Would love to see the religous nutters here if we opened one in Dublin!

Joey the lips · 01-05-2009 3:00pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

How?

What are you basing this on?

Honestly if I go dig out my amnesty books and type the research will you believe it?? I doubt it. Contact amnesty if your really that intensly interested. If they dont prove me write I will pay you for the mobile, but what I have just done is googled prostitution and black market. Unfor when I went to go in my security lock came on. When I figure how to take them off I will provide the link.

But judging by the constant comebacks I find myself having to help you with your morals

I dont realy care if you use them or not I have made statements and they are verifiable so why do I need to keep on argueing.

We will both get deeper and you still will believe your right. Its pointless isnt it

turgon · 01-05-2009 3:05pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

Perfectly but her is the problem by international standards if 90% works legally 180% will be forced. Thats the logic you need to think with. Its not the women that chooses to work back alley its the women thats forced!

Maybe thats to do with the fact that prostitution is illegal in most jurisdictions. Really Joey the lips, your not making sense. If 100 people nowadays wasnt a prostitute, 100 will get it on the black market. If 100 people want it in the legalized the society, 10 will get it on the black market.

And yet you see this as a bad thing?

AARRRGH · 01-05-2009 3:06pm

I have no interest in having sex with a prostitute, but I do have an interest in the politics of prostitution.

Prostitution is not exploitation. If a woman chooses to have sex for money, she is not being exploited.

The black market does not result in forced labour. The black market is people selling things outside of the legal system, for example, an illegal immigrant who can't legally work as a prostitute, so she works as a prostitute on the black market. This is not explotation. She is still choosing.

There is the very, very rare case of forced prostitution, such as when a child is kidnapped and raped by paedophiles. But that is not prostitution: that is kidnap and rape.

ionix5891 · 01-05-2009 3:08pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

I am just trying to help all us randy men understand that exploitation exists.

no comment on the "randy" bit, as i've been in relationship for over 7 years so please dont stereotype, my partners opinions on this thread are the same as mine

as for exploitation

we do well understand exploitation exists and are proposing to reduce it by making it harder for this to operate in the black market

Joey the lips wrote: »

only silution is to stem demand....

is see... you are proposing stemming demand by restricting the supply

hahaha please hand over your economics license

Joey the lips · 01-05-2009 3:20pm

turgon wrote: »

Maybe thats to do with the fact that prostitution is illegal in most jurisdictions. Really Joey the lips, your not making sense. If 100 people nowadays wasnt a prostitute, 100 will get it on the black market. If 100 people want it in the legalized the society, 10 will get it on the black market.

And yet you see this as a bad thing?

Themarket i talk about and amnesty quote is based on the netherland amsterdam! the worlds most legal prostitution country so no i am not baseing on illegal activities

I am floggin this thread now I have said enough for you to research if you really dont believe me. If I get time I will attach a couple of links.

Thanks but i am out of time

ionix5891 · 01-05-2009 3:22pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

Themarket i talk about and amnesty quote is based on the netherland amsterdam! the worlds most legal prostitution country so no i am not baseing on illegal activities

I am floggin this thread now I have said enough for you to research if you really dont believe me. If I get time I will attach a couple of links.

Thanks but i am out of time

lets play devils advocate

if they make prostitution illegal in Amsterdam tommorow

do you ( Joey the lips ) think there will be less or more abuse in this area of human enterprise?

its a very simple question

Joey the lips · 01-05-2009 3:42pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

lets play devils advocate

if they make prostitution illegal in Amsterdam tommorow

do you ( Joey the lips ) think there will be less or more abuse in this area of human enterprise?

its a very simple question

Yes it is a simple question but it does not have a very simple answer cause if you do not get the answer you want you will continue to argue. Give me a while and I will get the reliable links.

again you are not thinking of this correctly, You should be asking "Do you think there will be less or more exploitation. obvious there will be less becuase the market will be reduced so the demand will increase supply will decrease due to arrests and closings and there for labour conditions will actually improve. Its the simple supply and demand laws....

again I am not argueing anything but fact and becuase you have taken it personally that I joked about randy men you will NEVER believe what I say now.

Do the research. I will pay for your phone calls.... You can buy me a pint!

,8,1 · 01-05-2009 3:45pm

These people are clearly anti-prostitution from a moral perspective. However when faced with the fact that it does not concern them when two people engage in this kind of consensual activity they try and backtrack to find excuses why it should be banned.

There's no need for me to backtrack; I say I am opposed to it from a moral point of view from the outset and that is the way it stays.

Nor do I accept the libertarian "consent" and "sacrosancty of private spaces" principles. So when those arguments are proposed they are not a problem for me.

So you get rubbish like the black market. Because I suppose the black market will be so bigger when prostitution is legalized

Actually I never proposed that. I see the black market issue as irrelevant.

I think fundamentally people have a predisposition to wanting everyone to think and act the way they want them too.

Irony.

,8,1 · 01-05-2009 3:48pm

It is a feminism interest. Quite a large number of feminists subscribe to the anti-porn philosophy.

As feminism matures from the sexual revolution of the 1960s, to the anti-porn of the 1980s, to the ubiquitous Internet porn of the 2000s, serious anti-porn ideas are becoming minority in feminism.

The battle of "pro or anti porn?" within feminism has been fought and won.

Wendy McElroy wrote:

"Pornography benefits women, both personally and politically." This sentence opens my book XXX: A Woman's Right to Pornography, and it constitutes a more extreme defense of pornography than most feminists are comfortable with. I arrived at this position after years of interviewing hundreds of sex workers.

Unloading "anti-porn" on feminism is just too easy, because their position is so weak and fragmented.

I know there are pro-porn feminists as well though.

Ideogically most feminists should be pro-porn because one of the core tenets of feminism is that there should be no rules, restraint or repression regarding sexuality.

turgon · 01-05-2009 4:05pm

Am I correct in thinking that Joey the Lips thinks that all prostitution is "exploitation"?

@,8,1: Im not forcing anyone to anything (in reference to your "irony" point). I am giving them the option to do what they want. How is this forcing them to do something?

You want to force everyone to not engage with prostitutes.

,8,1 · 01-05-2009 5:42pm

@,8,1: Im not forcing anyone to anything (in reference to your "irony" point). I am giving them the option to do what they want. How is this forcing them to do something?

You want to force everyone to not engage with prostitutes.

You are forcing your indifference on others by seeking no prohibitive action against prostitution.

P. Breathnach · 01-05-2009 5:44pm

,8,1 wrote: »

You are forcing your indifference on others ...

I do that all the time. People tend not to notice.

,8,1 · 01-05-2009 5:46pm

Yes but turgon and others in the legalisation lobby want to make their indifference the basis of the law.

Joey the lips · 01-05-2009 5:48pm

turgon wrote: »

Am I correct in thinking that Joey the Lips thinks that all prostitution is "exploitation"?

@,8,1: Im not forcing anyone to anything (in reference to your "irony" point). I am giving them the option to do what they want. How is this forcing them to do something?

You want to force everyone to not engage with prostitutes.

No your wrong but if you follow the people that are against it you will see that it is one of the most exploited industries.

By the way I never said i was against it there is no man better who whould not love a fine lass with big...hands to sit on my.... lap.but I want it banned yes! why becuase its proven to take advantage of women. Sim I want hash to stay banned. I want happy hours with all drinks €3 to be banned why???? becuase I am that type of person that cares slightly about where society is going. however I know that more people here are men than women the demographics are 18-24 so prostition would be legal if we were baseing it on this forum

Thats what I am....

Permabear · 01-05-2009 5:50pm

This post has been deleted.

turgon · 01-05-2009 5:55pm

,8,1 wrote: »

You are forcing your indifference on others by seeking no prohibitive action against prostitution.

I just plain dont get you. How can you force your indifference on anyone

Joey the lips wrote: »

No your wrong but if you follow the people that are against it you will see that it is one of the most exploited industries.

And making it will legal will reduce the amount of women being exploited, because prostitutes will probably be forced to undergo health and welfare screening etc. Yeah?

Joey the lips wrote: »

its proven to take advantage of women.

So you want to keep the status quo then? Legalization will reduce the number of women being taken advantage of. Or are you under the impression that all prostitutes are being taken advantage of?

Joey the lips wrote: »

I want happy hours with all drinks €3 to be banned why????

Because you have a set of moral guidelines, including, like myself, a lack of binge drinking, but, unlike me, you want to force this moral value on everyone else.

Ill save you counting, there were 5 commas in that sentence

ionix5891 · 01-05-2009 6:00pm

,8,1 wrote: »

You are forcing your indifference on others by seeking no prohibitive action against prostitution.

theres a double negative in there

why should there be a prohibitive action against prostitution? the profession is older than politicians or lawyers

P. Breathnach · 01-05-2009 6:02pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

... I am that type of person that cares slightly about where society is going. however I know that more people here are men than women the demographics are 18-24 so prostition would be legal if we were baseing it on this forum..

1. I'm slightly out of the 18-24 age-group you posit (how do you know the demographics?).
2. I don't care slightly about where society is going: I care a lot.
3. I have no interest in using any of the services of the sex industry.
4. My belief that prostitution should be legalised is rooted in a belief that it would be beneficial to prostitutes if that were done.

AARRRGH · 01-05-2009 6:10pm

,8,1 why don't you just tell us, in clear English, why you think prostitution is immoral and why it should be illegal?

Joey the lips · 01-05-2009 6:10pm

turgon wrote: »

So you want to keep the status quo then? Legalization will reduce the number of women being taken advantage of. Or are you under the impression that all prostitutes are being taken advantage of?

Your imagination is brilliant do you base this on fact or assumptions. If its fact back it up. I can back up the fact that you are wrong can you back up the fact you are right!

Joey the lips · 01-05-2009 6:13pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

1. I'm slightly out of the 18-24 age-group you posit (how do you know the demographics?).
2. I don't care slightly about where society is going: I care a lot.
3. I have no interest in using any of the services of the sex industry.
4. My belief that prostitution should be legalised is rooted in a belief that it would be beneficial to prostitutes if that were done.

Point 4 is your belief. If I want beliefs I go to mass. Wait till I find the amnesty article. I dont have a belief I have factual evidence.

It just seems I am slamming agains a door that will not open to research the facts for oneself

turgon · 01-05-2009 6:17pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

Your imagination is brilliant do you base this on fact or assumptions. If its fact back it up. I can back up the fact that you are wrong can you back up the fact you are right!

Im going to do this is small teeny weeny steps so we can all understand:

Ok imagine prostitution is legalized.

Imagine that as a part of the law brothels must register themselves

The brothel must register each prostitute.

Each prostitute must undergoes Health and welfare check once a month

If the HSE determines there is any risk the prostitute is working against her will an investigation will start.

Exploitation will go down because all prostitutes must be consensual.

Joey the lips · 01-05-2009 6:23pm

Link no.1 Proving illegal prostitution operates alongside legal prostitution even when its regulated

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/the-red-lights-could-go-out-all-over-amsterdam-1582165.html

No doubt you still disbelieve it! Will add more as I figure the search engine This is the sex capital of the world " am i going slow
enough now...."

http://www.walnet.org/csis/papers/wijers-rights.html

I have show 2 links where prostitution exploitation operates alongside the legal trade in amsterdam. Can you who now think it should be legal provide evidence where legalising it disproves these articles...

That was all I tried to say. That you for a tireing day.

turgon · 01-05-2009 6:25pm

Yes but if it legalized there well be less illegal prostitution, right?

AARRRGH · 01-05-2009 6:32pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

Link no.1 Proving illegal prostitution operates alongside legal prostitution even when its regulated

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/the-red-lights-could-go-out-all-over-amsterdam-1582165.html

No doubt you still disbelieve it! Will add more as I figure the search engine This is the sex capital of the world " am i going slow enough now...."

Eh... if you read the article you linked to you will see the problem is that a lot of prostitutes are illegal immigrants.

The article (which delightfully refers to prostitutes as 'whores') explains that illegal immigrants will no longer be allowed to work in legitimate brothels as... surprise surprise... they are illegal immigrants.

The article then states that these women may be forced to work in the 'back streets'.

All this tells us is illegal immigrants don't have the same rights as legal immigrants. We all know this.

So this is not a problem to do with prostitution, this is a problem to do with illegal immigration. You could replace 'prostitute' with 'waiter' and you'd still have the same article.

And anyway, wouldn't you rather a system where there is some protection for prostitutes? No one is trying to claim fully decriminalising prostitution will result in utopia. Of course there will still be problems, but... THERE WILL BE A LOT LESS PROBLEMS.

Should prostitution be legal?

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