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Mensa

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭5318008!


    An File wrote: »
    If Valmont had posted the points in bold font I would have had sympathy for him, but for you to cry "misinterpretation and avoidance" of questions is ridiculous: you have been doing exactly that yourself.

    Please show me, where? I honestly swear that up untill the post you just quoted i was trying to have as reasoned an argument as possible.Are you too going to claim that you could not understand the point i was repeatedly making about attatching different weights to the different areas of intelligence, and how this makes the concept of an overall intelligence quotient flawed?

    Or are you going to pretend that valmount was right in asking me "who is someone?" ffs. a clear (and imo deliberate) refusal to use common sense was displayed in his posts. I'm still waiting on a response from him on the point i made.

    And for the record, constantly claiming that someone said things they didn't is seriously not cool. Like 1 false accusation could be a mistake, but your post was full of them. Read my posts again. If i didn't make it clear, i apologise. Obviously i struck some sort of sore point. Using such cheap tactics to try and win an argument is low.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭Nehaxak


    Gotta love AH. I read the first page, all fine and dandy... skipped to the last page by which time all hell has broken loose with a few geeks blokes arguing over who has a bigger IQ willy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    5318008! wrote: »
    If you cannot follow this logic then sorry, all hope is lost.

    ...
    5318008! wrote: »
    Use your common sense

    ...
    5318008! wrote: »
    I'm still waiting on a response from him on the point i made.

    ...
    5318008! wrote: »
    refusal to use common sense was displayed in his posts.
    5318008! wrote: »
    i personally think/ then people would disagree/ I however (along with what i suspect to be most of the general public)/ Let's pretend/ everyone knows that's what i meant/ Clearly someone/
    I would hopefully consider myself a clever person

    And the big one:
    5318008! wrote: »
    I really shouldn't have to provide any evidence

    I'm actually surprised your head hasn't imploded yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Nehaxak wrote: »
    Gotta love AH. I read the first page, all fine and dandy... skipped to the last page by which time all hell has broken loose with a few geeks blokes arguing over who has a bigger IQ willy.

    Yeah, clever stuff is stoopid.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    This thread is giving me an amazing insight into how ordinary minds work.
    I must study you people more.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Hagar wrote: »
    This thread is giving me an amazing insight into how ordinary minds work.
    I must study you people more.

    eh? I'm afraid I've shifted out of my After Hours comedy gear. Care to contribute anything to the argument? Is there something we don't know you'd like to share?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    There's probably much you don't know but I'm not at liberty to share with you as you're not a member. ;)


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    AARGH!
    Somebody ground up my axe!
    Who did it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 815 ✭✭✭animaal


    Hagar wrote: »
    This thread is giving me an amazing insight into how ordinary minds work.
    I must study you people more.

    I've often wondered if God ever dosses on After Hours when he should be working. I guess now we know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    I've passed on most of the business to my son, you might know him, Brian.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,547 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    Since the dirrhea is verbal...

    Move the Enema North as I've a Sore Arse..!..:D (comedy jacket firmly in place)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭5318008!


    Valmont wrote: »
    ...



    ...



    ...





    And the big one:

    I'm actually surprised your head hasn't imploded yet.

    A collection of quotes taken completely out of context! wow, how long did it take you to think of that???
    :rolleyes:

    I'll take your non-response to my point as you conceeding it;

    A single, objective number can never be put on "overall intelligence", as there are too many factors involved, and that different people will attatch different weights to each of these factors, thus giving different figures for the overall "intelligence quotient".

    Strange though, i've learnt an important lesson. I conceeded to one of your points thinking that's what reasonable debates are about. However, instead of you calming down, it gave you a confidence boost and made you assume you were automatically right and as result you failed to consider my points properly.

    As time went by and points resolved themselves (due in large part to us having different definitions of intelligence) you found yourself defending a poistion that was blatantly wrong, with no way out. Cue the confusement tactics and cheap tricks to try and blur the argument to the point where it collapses and you can exit the victor. However, I managed to claw myself into a position where you could either accept my point, or ignore it completely. I don't mind that you chose to ignore it. In the end it means the same to me.

    Next time, keep your head. Shooting down noobs is fun, but just because they aren't as qualified as you, doesn't mean they don't have one or two valid observations hidden within their sloppily constructed rant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Lia_lia


    Ha! What a horrible looking website.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    5318008! wrote: »

    A collection of quotes taken completely out of context! wow, how long did it take you to think of that???
    :rolleyes:

    I'll take your non-response to my point as you conceeding it;

    A single, objective number can never be put on "overall intelligence", as there are too many factors involved, and that different people will attatch different weights to each of these factors, thus giving different figures for the overall "intelligence quotient".

    Strange though, i've learnt an important lesson. I conceeded to one of your points thinking that's what reasonable debates are about. However, instead of you calming down, it gave you a confidence boost and made you assume you were automatically right and as result you failed to consider my points properly.

    As time went by and points resolved themselves (due in large part to us having different definitions of intelligence) you found yourself defending a poistion that was blatantly wrong, with no way out. Cue the confusement tactics and cheap tricks to try and blur the argument to the point where it collapses and you can exit the victor. However, I managed to claw myself into a position where you could either accept my point, or ignore it completely. I don't mind that you chose to ignore it. In the end it means the same to me.

    Next time, keep your head. Shooting down noobs is fun, but just because they aren't as qualified as you, doesn't mean they don't have one or two valid observations hidden within their sloppily constructed rant.

    Get a fucking life man, you're the one who turned this debate into some kind of petty competition. Your arguments have gone off on wild tangents from the original topic of this thread, spiralling into a personal vendetta that has more to do with "winning" and less to do with understanding. You have repeatedly accused me of "putting words in your mouth" as a cop-out from actually responding to my points (which, in reality, were made in genuine attempts to paraphrase your posts so that I could understand you better). Whatever problem you have with the minutae of I.Q. testing and its uses has nothing to do with "shooting down noobs". Grow up.


    *I'm out of this thread until such a point as it swings back around to being on topic


  • Registered Users Posts: 82,330 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    An File wrote: »
    *I'm out of this thread until such a point as it swings back around to being on topic
    God, I have to read over this crap now out of sheer morbid curiosity, don't I?

    Back in an hour or two...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,898 ✭✭✭✭seanybiker


    I dont hate MENSA I dont love them either. I just dont anything them really. So what if people with the same interests want to meet up with each other, so what if they pay for it. People who enjoy sports like soccer, go to matches and pay for the privilege.
    I find sports boring to watch and Im sure a MENSA meeting would make me fall asleep but that dont make me hate sports fans or MENSA people. Smell of jealousy off original poster me thinks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭5318008!


    An File wrote: »
    Get a fucking life man, you're the one who turned this debate into some kind of petty competition. Your arguments have gone off on wild tangents from the original topic of this thread, spiralling into a personal vendetta that has more to do with "winning" and less to do with understanding.
    Oh really??? hmmm. Does this sound like something a person who was just in it for the win would say:
    5318008! wrote:
    You're right. I didn't think of that. I withdraw my statement
    An File wrote:
    You have repeatedly accused me of "putting words in your mouth" as a cop-out from actually responding to my points (which, in reality, were made in genuine attempts to paraphrase your posts so that I could understand you better).
    I clearly stressed in my original posts that i didn't have some of the very same opinions that you later on "paraphrased" me as having. You came out with these angry posts giving out about things i never said. What was i supposed to do???
    Whatever problem you have with the minutae of I.Q. testing and its uses has nothing to do with "shooting down noobs". Grow up.


    *I'm out of this thread until such a point as it swings back around to being on topic
    Actually i was saying Valmount was shooting down noobs, not me. I was implying I was the noob, It was a slight on the fact that he kept harping on about his knowlede of the area in order to ignore a simple logical argument.

    It's all over now though, all the issues have been resolved (no point flogging a dead horse).It's a pity the thread got nasty at the end, but I genuinely have learnt from this discussion and it's helped me formulate my ideas on intelligence/giftedness/nature vs nurture ect. I hope other people also benifited from this thread in a simmilar way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Jesus Juice


    MENSA is just a way for intelligent people with high IQs to back slap each other and sit in a room saying ''Hey...Hey everybody look at how smart we are!''


  • Registered Users Posts: 82,330 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Samurai wrote: »
    There are something like 3 different IQ tests one for languages one maths and another, its not near as hard to qualify as people think if it was they'd make less money! Last time I checked I qualified under maths but failed miserably in the other categories and so was still eligible to join
    You have 3 IQ scores (at least, I did) for Verbal, Performance and Full Scale IQ. This was the child's standard test to get into the Florida ESE program, and may not be what mensa uses. Those numbers for me, were scaled by testing Picture Completion, Coding, Picture Arrangement, Block Design, Information, Similarities, Arithmetic, Vocabulary, Comprehension, and Object Assembly.

    Really I only just scraped it with an IQ of 132. But that was long before I grew up drinking JD and smoking weed. That figures probably very obsolete at this age - though some psychologists suggest IQ is more a skill than an inherited trait, and can be brought up with the right mental exercise.
    An File wrote: »
    The last Mensa-bashing thread was way more fun...
    In hindsight An File, you were asking for the madness that follows :)
    Riddle101 wrote: »
    Was that the one I made?

    Anyway, I hate MENSA nonetheless. They are a bunch of losers who walks around thinking they're god's gift to the world. If they had any brains they'd use them to good use like combinining their intelligence to help stop world diseases such as Cancer, Aids and this Swine Flu. They have the brain power to do, but instead they just sit around some mansion and chat about world topics and trying to get new members.
    Just like CEOs shouldnt meet up in Vegas and have coke and hookers to network with other wealthy businessmen and establish deals and connections. Just like you shouldn't join a club or society to find someone you like, you should just find a girl you like, jogging down the street, and pull her into your van. much simpler.

    :D

    They might play chess but altogether you are still gathering bright minds together. Cancer curing follows.
    5318008! wrote: »
    I know this is gonna sound like me being a sore loser, but there's actually research to back this up:

    ReeeeJECTED!!!

    Cool kid wanted to play with the nerds and the nerds said no. And now the cool kid is bitter. Aww. You're precious :)
    ...

    Some schools of thought believe there are other forms of IQ - such as Spiritual, Social and Physical IQ (Muscle Memory, etc). There are of course Arithmetical IQs and Musical IQs as well. However the IQ test as it stands does not measure musical knowledge or coolness, because these are not relevant to Education. Because after all, if you can be educated, you can be taught anything else. Similarly a child needs to learn how to communicate before they go to school. Try and imagine life without language.

    I don't see how IQ's are counter-intuitive. Its an indicator that helps education systems with limited resources know which students have a higher aptitude for learning. Similarly you would be more inclined to sow your plant seeds in fertile soil. Imagine if Bill Gates (IQ 170) never went to the Prep School where he became so fascinated by computers?

    Definitely though, attitude is taught. There are some elitist douchebags out there, but there are also humble prodigies. Its unfair to label all High IQ people with one large brush. Just because a student attends a Gifted Education Progrom does not make them arrogant. That depends on many other factors, and not every parent of a child prodigy is going to fill their child with that kind of crap either, so again, I think its unfair of you to claim this is the case.

    I think Bluewolf polished up the argument well enough.
    We wrote: »
    People bash mensa for the same reason that people bash any association that claim things without sufficient evidence or justification.. Imho, for Mensa to claim that their members are above average in intelligence is pretty similar to religious people claiming they have a more developed sense of morality, an equally rediculous claim.
    Now at least that is some bashing mentality I can get behind.
    5318008! wrote: »
    I think you're missing the point of what i am saying. I'm not saying kids shouldn't be encouraged.I'm just saying that we shouldn't give them the impression they're something they're not. Clever children should be encouraged to develop interests and move ahead of the class by learning in their own time. Most "gifted children do this anyway, hence them becoming "gifted".

    Yes they learn in their own time, the same way I surf Wikipedia. But when Billy is in school He is not on his time, He is on the schoolboard's time. And on the schoolboard's time a teacher tells Billy to do more of the same while she sits down with jimmy who still fails to understand long-division. Even though Billy has been eager and ready to learn the next step of the lesson for the last 25 minutes.
    If your child is learning in 5 minutes what it takes another child 30 minutes to do, do you want your child to sit their for the other 25 minutes or do you want them to be in a class that works at that accelerated pace? "But he can just read the text book" Yea well, Big picture is he completes the curriculum in 1/6th of the time it takes the rest of the class. When you factor that by days weeks and months, thats a lot of wasted time.

    Your argument is flawed.
    Yes, as i said before they should be encouraged to operate outside the confinements of formal learning and acquire knowledge independantly. If you're genuinely interested in something and you're doing it purely for yourself it's way easier to get things done (for example i've a friend who thought himself piano and got as far in 6 months as 5 years of lessons got me).
    I only have to repeat what I said above: you can't learn independently while you are stuck at a desk.

    This is why we have Gifted Education Programs. As An File points out, not all Gifted Children have a talent for self-taught learning and work best with an active mentor/teacher to sponge knowledge from. Its not enough to expect them all to stumble upon quantum physics or the Bass Guitar.
    So you expect people to be well adjusted at such a young age? kids are impressionable.

    Why not? Whether or not a child is well adjusted is entirely up to their upbringing, and hence their parents. You can take that aspect of this discussion to the parenting forum.
    I remember actually thinking i was better than my 6th class teacher because he gave a wrong answer to what i thought was an obvious question. Back then, i was as arrogant as they come. I thought i was just plain better than other people, when in fact the only reason i was clever was because my mother had taught me how to read at a very young age and i had always kept well ahead of my "average" classmates. School was boring (as it would be for anyone who's ahead of their class) and this made me seek intellectual stimulation elsewhere.
    So what? My dad taught me multiplication years before I learned it in a classroom. That didnt make me arrogant.

    Just because you can catch someone out in the wrong once in a while (a teacher, a parent) does not suddenly make you superior. This isnt fcuking Higlander, there can be Many.

    If you think that because you caught your 6th class teacher out on an answer makes you superior, thats your issue.
    Instead of telling some children they're "gifted", we should tell them the truth. They're not innately superior, they have an advantage over other kids because for every few hours they spent playing, they might spend a half hour reading a factual book or watching a documentary or something. Tell them that they're in a privileged position and that they should work hard to maintain/increase this advantage into adult life.
    Take it to the parenting forum tbh. I think you'll find its a simple matter of "You want to learn more Billy? Ok, lets see if we can find a class that will help you." Its only the dumbass parent that sits you down on the steps and says "Billy, you have a Gift! You can Cure Cancer! You are superior to others."

    An File was right - this tangent is way off the topic of Mensa tbh. Again, take it to the parenting forum, as arrogance is - clearly - not limited to the High IQ crowd.
    5318008! wrote: »
    I personally think there's way too many hours in a school day (for primary school, especially early on). Many education experts agree with me (well moreso me agreeing with them :p). I think kids should play and do sports and music (if their interested) a lot more. Maybe kids who finish their work early should be encouraged to read in another room (i remember doing this in 2nd class).

    And I got that attention, after I was enrolled in Florida's Exceptional Student Education program in the 90s. I was given the free reign to sit at the IBMs and learn programs, or read books, and the music department was a far cry better than the place I had been going to. Chimes are fun.

    What you are describing is EXCATLY what an ESE program is. Because these children learn the academics so quickly there is extra time allotted for Music, Reading, Computer Skills, and PE.

    "They should do that for ALL Children though" - again, like I said before, in case you missed it, Education systems have finite resources. Those resources must be used strategically.
    Knowledge and skills are completely different. If a child wants to learn a certain skill outside of school, yes we should do everything we can to facilitate this learning. I think any child with such an intellectual interest should be allowed the opportunity to develop it though, not just those in the top 5%. Who knows, if you try and force this upon intelligent children you may kill their passion for learning.

    Got ahead of myself :pac: See last paragraph, anticipating your counterpoint.

    Education systems have Finite Resources. Were this opportunity to be afforded to all students, the budgets would be many times larger than it is currently.
    Valmont wrote: »
    In the WAIS III intelligence test the picture completion task and general knowledge section would take into account a persons knowledge of how the "world works" although I have a feeling you meant that in a vague rhetorical sense.

    I took that ... no wait, mine says WISC-III. Whats the difference?
    5318008! wrote: »
    (jesus, this is After hours, not ****ing childpsychologyforums.com).

    You're right - and at the Moderator's discretion, we can take this thread to the Psychology forum. But you are the poster that made this about Child Psychology and Parenting.
    Well why isn't everyone with a genius IQ a millionaire or outstanding acedemic, when many with only slightly above average IQs are?

    Personality. Some are highly motivated, others are less so, and prefer to sit back and do nothing. Kind of like you, who is self professed as being lazy.
    The picture completion isn't really what i was looking for. For example someone who has spent ages analysing market trends in an efficient way might have developed such a good understanding that they can make themselves a millionaire with almost no effort.

    Yeah, because Warren Buffet is a retard :confused:
    Is the ability to tell two sounds apart a factor in overall intelligence (some would argue it's a part of musical intelligence), what about the ability to tell two smells apart? is that equally important? obviously not! Does musical ability deserve to get the same weight as verbal ability? obviously not! If you're a retard at music who cares? if you can't understand sentences you're ****ed! Although, at higher levels it may work differently (e.g verbal intelligence is only way more imporatant up to a point, after which it's relative importance drops off to a lower level).

    So you understand! Then why do I have to explain this crap to you?
    You're right. I didn't think of that. I withdraw my statement. However, I still disagree with the use of IQ tests in problemless children. If you tell a child they're innately talented and part of an elite they'll develop a bad attitude and gravely underestimate those less overtly intelligent than themselves. If you tell a child the exact opposite it could be soul destroying. Especially in a family whose parents hark on about intelligence and grades all the time. You see where i'm coming from.

    Wow, how often do you intend to bring this up? You've said yourself parenting is determinant of that.
    An File wrote: »
    *I'm out of this thread until such a point as it swings back around to being on topic
    Overheal wrote:
    God, I have to read over this crap now out of sheer morbid curiosity, don't I?

    Back in an hour or two...
    ............I want 2 hours of my life back.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,487 ✭✭✭banquo


    Boards.ie: You win the thread. Here are your 90 minutes.
    Overheal: But I wanted two hours?!
    Boards.ie: Sorry. /walks away


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  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭Fiona500


    It is a club for people with something in similar. Webster's "A group of persons organised for a social, literary, athletic, political, or other purpose". Living in a free country entitles you to start, join or not join any club or society that you wish. If some people feel that they could organise a club with entry based on "fairer" principles then it is your right to do so.....:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Overheal wrote: »
    I took that ... no wait, mine says WISC-III. Whats the difference?

    The WISC is the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children while the WAIS is the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale. There's not that much of a difference between them besides the obvious.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,258 ✭✭✭✭Rabies


    What happens the stupid guy in mensa. There has to be one :/


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    5318008! wrote: »
    Next time, keep your head. Shooting down noobs is fun, but just because they aren't as qualified as you, doesn't mean they don't have one or two valid observations hidden within their sloppily constructed rant.

    You really have a giant chip on your shoulder don't you? Did a nerd bully you at school? :confused::rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭iDontReallyCare


    Scored 161


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭Monkey61


    I have never understood why people get so tetchy about intelligence. Every single time the debate arises about streaming classes in schools and people start to cry out about how unfair it is to the less clever children to all be lumped in together..."oh won't somebody think of their self esteem?"

    Why is it fine to tell kids they are brilliant at football, or the clarinet and pick them for teams and orchestras, yet it's not okay to tell kids that they are clever and encourage them accordingly? Would anyone dream of telling little Jamie that he can't play for the county football team because he is getting ahead of himself and should be happy kicking a ball around in the back garden?? NO.

    It galls me that when kids are amazingly talented at sports they are encouraged and pushed to develop their gifts...they are cheered from the sidelines and there are a huge array of programmes in place to help them develop careers out of it. What happens to an exceptionally clever child? They are most likely constantly mocked by their peers and forced to work at a spirit crushingly slow level with little room for growth.

    Why are all those with super high IQs not huge achievers? As was said before, it's a mix of personality and opportunity. Would half of the footballers be in the Premier League if their parents hadn't pushed them out into the garden to practice and driven them down to the youth academies every weekend thus putting them firmly in the middle of the well oiled machine that would capitalise on their talents and catapult them to the top? Doubtful.

    So Mensa's annual fee is E45...can you think of any club which sends out newsletters and such that doesn't have an annual fee?? That's what clubs do. That is how they can afford to keep running. Top 2% on an IQ test is still going to be top 2%. You are either there or your not, it isn't some crazy money making scam that will let in an unnatural amount of people. And yes, while IQ testing may not be perfect, I have yet to meet an intelligent person that doesn't have a high IQ.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Scored 161

    Is that your tetris highscore?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭5318008!


    Overheal wrote: »
    Some schools of thought believe there are other forms of IQ - such as Spiritual, Social and Physical IQ (Muscle Memory, etc). There are of course Arithmetical IQs and Musical IQs as well. However the IQ test as it stands does not measure musical knowledge or coolness, because these are not relevant to Education. Because after all, if you can be educated, you can be taught anything else. Similarly a child needs to learn how to communicate before they go to school. Try and imagine life without language.
    I never said coolness was a part of intelligence. That was a joke based on the argument that you can sum up such a wide range of abilities in one single number (intelligence quotient).
    I don't see how IQ's are counter-intuitive. Its an indicator that helps education systems with limited resources know which students have a higher aptitude for learning. Similarly you would be more inclined to sow your plant seeds in fertile soil. Imagine if Bill Gates (IQ 170) never went to the Prep School where he became so fascinated by computers?

    Definitely though, attitude is taught. There are some elitist douchebags out there, but there are also humble prodigies. Its unfair to label all High IQ people with one large brush. Just because a student attends a Gifted Education Progrom does not make them arrogant. That depends on many other factors, and not every parent of a child prodigy is going to fill their child with that kind of crap either, so again, I think its unfair of you to claim this is the case.

    5318008! wrote: »
    Granted most aren't like that (or are only to a small degree)

    Yes they learn in their own time, the same way I surf Wikipedia. But when Billy is in school He is not on his time, He is on the schoolboard's time. And on the schoolboard's time a teacher tells Billy to do more of the same while she sits down with jimmy who still fails to understand long-division. Even though Billy has been eager and ready to learn the next step of the lesson for the last 25 minutes.
    If your child is learning in 5 minutes what it takes another child 30 minutes to do, do you want your child to sit their for the other 25 minutes or do you want them to be in a class that works at that accelerated pace? "But he can just read the text book" Yea well, Big picture is he completes the curriculum in 1/6th of the time it takes the rest of the class. When you factor that by days weeks and months, thats a lot of wasted time.
    Yes, the education system needs needs changing. I'm not against streamed classes or anything. I'm just against telling children they're inherantly gifted and giving them special treatment (i deal with this later on).

    This is why we have Gifted Education Programs. As An File points out, not all Gifted Children have a talent for self-taught learning and work best with an active mentor/teacher to sponge knowledge from. Its not enough to expect them all to stumble upon quantum physics or the Bass Guitar.


    Why not? Whether or not a child is well adjusted is entirely up to their upbringing, and hence their parents. You can take that aspect of this discussion to the parenting forum.So what? My dad taught me multiplication years before I learned it in a classroom. That didnt make me arrogant.

    But if you had everyone constantly praising your intelligence (and not anyone else's- even when siblings or friends are present)! Then yeah, there's a good chance it'd go to your head (also see 2 points below).
    Just because you can catch someone out in the wrong once in a while (a teacher, a parent) does not suddenly make you superior. This isnt fcuking Higlander, there can be Many.

    If you think that because you caught your 6th class teacher out on an answer makes you superior, thats your issue.

    I agree. But if you tell someone at that age that they were born extra talented, how are they not supposed to feel a bit superior?

    Why not tell them what i consider to be the truth; that they have developed some good/great talents, and they now hold an advantage over their peers because of it, and if they keep developing their talents they might end up doing something really great with them.

    And I got that attention, after I was enrolled in Florida's Exceptional Student Education program in the 90s. I was given the free reign to sit at the IBMs and learn programs, or read books, and the music department was a far cry better than the place I had been going to. Chimes are fun.

    What you are describing is EXCATLY what an ESE program is. Because these children learn the academics so quickly there is extra time allotted for Music, Reading, Computer Skills, and PE.

    "They should do that for ALL Children though" - again, like I said before, in case you missed it, Education systems have finite resources. Those resources must be used strategically.

    Education systems have Finite Resources. Were this opportunity to be afforded to all students, the budgets would be many times larger than it is currently.

    I dissagree. I think all children should be given equal opportunities. I'm not saying we should ignore intelligent children, but i don't think we should give them special treatment to the detriment of other children.

    I don't think the difference between someone with an IQ of 131 and someone else with an IQ of 121 is so large that it warrants the kid with the 131 iq being given a massive advantage. Due to IQ tests being limited in what they test for, the child with an iq of 121 could easily have way more potential than the kid with 131. If you look at people who achieve great things you'll see that their IQs although reasonably high, are usually not in the "genius" range and maybe not even in the "gifted" range. We should spread out resources as fairly as possible.

    Personality. Some are highly motivated, others are less so, and prefer to sit back and do nothing. Kind of like you, who is self professed as being lazy.

    see above

    So you understand! Then why do I have to explain this crap to you?
    what crap :confused:? Valmount attacked that very statement. I see you agree with me on that point then. thanks ;).


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    I don't need to pay £45 to tell myself i'm brainy.:p


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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,330 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    5318008! wrote: »
    But if you had everyone constantly praising your intelligence (and not anyone else's- even when siblings or friends are present)! Then yeah, there's a good chance it'd go to your head (also see 2 points below).

    I agree. But if you tell someone at that age that they were born extra talented, how are they not supposed to feel a bit superior?

    Why not tell them what i consider to be the truth; that they have developed some good/great talents, and they now hold an advantage over their peers because of it, and if they keep developing their talents they might end up doing something really great with them.
    you automatically assume that an ESE class consists of a teacher telling gifted students day in and day out that they are superior beings, instilling them with nazi ideals.

    Its simply not the case.

    In fact,

    "Why not tell them what i consider to be the truth; that they have
    developed some good/great talents, and they now hold an advantage over their peers because of it, and if they keep developing their talents they might end up doing something really great with them."

    Thats exactly what happens. For the love of Hitler quit assuming differently. You do not have all of the facts.
    I dissagree. I think all children should be given equal opportunities. I'm not saying we should ignore intelligent children, but i don't think we should give them special treatment to the detriment of other children.

    I don't think the difference between someone with an IQ of 131 and someone else with an IQ of 121 is so large that it warrants the kid with the 131 iq being given a massive advantage. Due to IQ tests being limited in what they test for, the child with an iq of 121 could easily have way more potential than the kid with 131. If you look at people who achieve great things you'll see that their IQs although reasonably high, are usually not in the "genius" range and maybe not even in the "gifted" range. We should spread out resources as fairly as possible.
    It's not going to happen. But if you want your lower IQ child to have a better opportunity - Its called Prep School.

    It will help you in the long run to consider ESE as a scholarship, not a right.
    5318008! wrote: »
    what crap ? Valmount attacked that very statement. I see you agree with me on that point then. thanks .
    No you're arguing someone with more musical talent but poor verbal IQ should be admitted into the gifted program. Sure that child can learn a lot more from the music classes (an Extra Curricular activity whichever way you swing it) but they will also fail to grasp the core curriculum and hence advance to further grades - its a waste of resources. IQ tests for the rate at which a child can learn, not their extra curricular talents.


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