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Mensa
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You have 3 IQ scores (at least, I did) for Verbal, Performance and Full Scale IQ. This was the child's standard test to get into the Florida ESE program, and may not be what mensa uses. Those numbers for me, were scaled by testing Picture Completion, Coding, Picture Arrangement, Block Design, Information, Similarities, Arithmetic, Vocabulary, Comprehension, and Object Assembly.There are something like 3 different IQ tests one for languages one maths and another, its not near as hard to qualify as people think if it was they'd make less money! Last time I checked I qualified under maths but failed miserably in the other categories and so was still eligible to join
Really I only just scraped it with an IQ of 132. But that was long before I grew up drinking JD and smoking weed. That figures probably very obsolete at this age - though some psychologists suggest IQ is more a skill than an inherited trait, and can be brought up with the right mental exercise.
In hindsight An File, you were asking for the madness that followsThe last Mensa-bashing thread was way more fun...
Just like CEOs shouldnt meet up in Vegas and have coke and hookers to network with other wealthy businessmen and establish deals and connections. Just like you shouldn't join a club or society to find someone you like, you should just find a girl you like, jogging down the street, and pull her into your van. much simpler.Was that the one I made?
Anyway, I hate MENSA nonetheless. They are a bunch of losers who walks around thinking they're god's gift to the world. If they had any brains they'd use them to good use like combinining their intelligence to help stop world diseases such as Cancer, Aids and this Swine Flu. They have the brain power to do, but instead they just sit around some mansion and chat about world topics and trying to get new members.
They might play chess but altogether you are still gathering bright minds together. Cancer curing follows.I know this is gonna sound like me being a sore loser, but there's actually research to back this up:
ReeeeJECTED!!!
Cool kid wanted to play with the nerds and the nerds said no. And now the cool kid is bitter. Aww. You're precious...
Some schools of thought believe there are other forms of IQ - such as Spiritual, Social and Physical IQ (Muscle Memory, etc). There are of course Arithmetical IQs and Musical IQs as well. However the IQ test as it stands does not measure musical knowledge or coolness, because these are not relevant to Education. Because after all, if you can be educated, you can be taught anything else. Similarly a child needs to learn how to communicate before they go to school. Try and imagine life without language.
I don't see how IQ's are counter-intuitive. Its an indicator that helps education systems with limited resources know which students have a higher aptitude for learning. Similarly you would be more inclined to sow your plant seeds in fertile soil. Imagine if Bill Gates (IQ 170) never went to the Prep School where he became so fascinated by computers?
Definitely though, attitude is taught. There are some elitist douchebags out there, but there are also humble prodigies. Its unfair to label all High IQ people with one large brush. Just because a student attends a Gifted Education Progrom does not make them arrogant. That depends on many other factors, and not every parent of a child prodigy is going to fill their child with that kind of crap either, so again, I think its unfair of you to claim this is the case.
I think Bluewolf polished up the argument well enough.
Now at least that is some bashing mentality I can get behind.People bash mensa for the same reason that people bash any association that claim things without sufficient evidence or justification.. Imho, for Mensa to claim that their members are above average in intelligence is pretty similar to religious people claiming they have a more developed sense of morality, an equally rediculous claim.I think you're missing the point of what i am saying. I'm not saying kids shouldn't be encouraged.I'm just saying that we shouldn't give them the impression they're something they're not. Clever children should be encouraged to develop interests and move ahead of the class by learning in their own time. Most "gifted children do this anyway, hence them becoming "gifted".
Yes they learn in their own time, the same way I surf Wikipedia. But when Billy is in school He is not on his time, He is on the schoolboard's time. And on the schoolboard's time a teacher tells Billy to do more of the same while she sits down with jimmy who still fails to understand long-division. Even though Billy has been eager and ready to learn the next step of the lesson for the last 25 minutes.
If your child is learning in 5 minutes what it takes another child 30 minutes to do, do you want your child to sit their for the other 25 minutes or do you want them to be in a class that works at that accelerated pace? "But he can just read the text book" Yea well, Big picture is he completes the curriculum in 1/6th of the time it takes the rest of the class. When you factor that by days weeks and months, thats a lot of wasted time.
Your argument is flawed.
I only have to repeat what I said above: you can't learn independently while you are stuck at a desk.Yes, as i said before they should be encouraged to operate outside the confinements of formal learning and acquire knowledge independantly. If you're genuinely interested in something and you're doing it purely for yourself it's way easier to get things done (for example i've a friend who thought himself piano and got as far in 6 months as 5 years of lessons got me).
This is why we have Gifted Education Programs. As An File points out, not all Gifted Children have a talent for self-taught learning and work best with an active mentor/teacher to sponge knowledge from. Its not enough to expect them all to stumble upon quantum physics or the Bass Guitar.So you expect people to be well adjusted at such a young age? kids are impressionable.
Why not? Whether or not a child is well adjusted is entirely up to their upbringing, and hence their parents. You can take that aspect of this discussion to the parenting forum.
So what? My dad taught me multiplication years before I learned it in a classroom. That didnt make me arrogant.I remember actually thinking i was better than my 6th class teacher because he gave a wrong answer to what i thought was an obvious question. Back then, i was as arrogant as they come. I thought i was just plain better than other people, when in fact the only reason i was clever was because my mother had taught me how to read at a very young age and i had always kept well ahead of my "average" classmates. School was boring (as it would be for anyone who's ahead of their class) and this made me seek intellectual stimulation elsewhere.
Just because you can catch someone out in the wrong once in a while (a teacher, a parent) does not suddenly make you superior. This isnt fcuking Higlander, there can be Many.
If you think that because you caught your 6th class teacher out on an answer makes you superior, thats your issue.
Take it to the parenting forum tbh. I think you'll find its a simple matter of "You want to learn more Billy? Ok, lets see if we can find a class that will help you." Its only the dumbass parent that sits you down on the steps and says "Billy, you have a Gift! You can Cure Cancer! You are superior to others."Instead of telling some children they're "gifted", we should tell them the truth. They're not innately superior, they have an advantage over other kids because for every few hours they spent playing, they might spend a half hour reading a factual book or watching a documentary or something. Tell them that they're in a privileged position and that they should work hard to maintain/increase this advantage into adult life.
An File was right - this tangent is way off the topic of Mensa tbh. Again, take it to the parenting forum, as arrogance is - clearly - not limited to the High IQ crowd.I personally think there's way too many hours in a school day (for primary school, especially early on). Many education experts agree with me (well moreso me agreeing with them
). I think kids should play and do sports and music (if their interested) a lot more. Maybe kids who finish their work early should be encouraged to read in another room (i remember doing this in 2nd class).
And I got that attention, after I was enrolled in Florida's Exceptional Student Education program in the 90s. I was given the free reign to sit at the IBMs and learn programs, or read books, and the music department was a far cry better than the place I had been going to. Chimes are fun.
What you are describing is EXCATLY what an ESE program is. Because these children learn the academics so quickly there is extra time allotted for Music, Reading, Computer Skills, and PE.
"They should do that for ALL Children though" - again, like I said before, in case you missed it, Education systems have finite resources. Those resources must be used strategically.Knowledge and skills are completely different. If a child wants to learn a certain skill outside of school, yes we should do everything we can to facilitate this learning. I think any child with such an intellectual interest should be allowed the opportunity to develop it though, not just those in the top 5%. Who knows, if you try and force this upon intelligent children you may kill their passion for learning.
Got ahead of myself :pac: See last paragraph, anticipating your counterpoint.
Education systems have Finite Resources. Were this opportunity to be afforded to all students, the budgets would be many times larger than it is currently.In the WAIS III intelligence test the picture completion task and general knowledge section would take into account a persons knowledge of how the "world works" although I have a feeling you meant that in a vague rhetorical sense.
I took that ... no wait, mine says WISC-III. Whats the difference?(jesus, this is After hours, not ****ing childpsychologyforums.com).
You're right - and at the Moderator's discretion, we can take this thread to the Psychology forum. But you are the poster that made this about Child Psychology and Parenting.Well why isn't everyone with a genius IQ a millionaire or outstanding acedemic, when many with only slightly above average IQs are?
Personality. Some are highly motivated, others are less so, and prefer to sit back and do nothing. Kind of like you, who is self professed as being lazy.The picture completion isn't really what i was looking for. For example someone who has spent ages analysing market trends in an efficient way might have developed such a good understanding that they can make themselves a millionaire with almost no effort.
Yeah, because Warren Buffet is a retard
Is the ability to tell two sounds apart a factor in overall intelligence (some would argue it's a part of musical intelligence), what about the ability to tell two smells apart? is that equally important? obviously not! Does musical ability deserve to get the same weight as verbal ability? obviously not! If you're a retard at music who cares? if you can't understand sentences you're ****ed! Although, at higher levels it may work differently (e.g verbal intelligence is only way more imporatant up to a point, after which it's relative importance drops off to a lower level).
So you understand! Then why do I have to explain this crap to you?You're right. I didn't think of that. I withdraw my statement. However, I still disagree with the use of IQ tests in problemless children. If you tell a child they're innately talented and part of an elite they'll develop a bad attitude and gravely underestimate those less overtly intelligent than themselves. If you tell a child the exact opposite it could be soul destroying. Especially in a family whose parents hark on about intelligence and grades all the time. You see where i'm coming from.
Wow, how often do you intend to bring this up? You've said yourself parenting is determinant of that.*I'm out of this thread until such a point as it swings back around to being on topic
............I want 2 hours of my life back.Overheal wrote:God, I have to read over this crap now out of sheer morbid curiosity, don't I?
Back in an hour or two...0 -
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Next time, keep your head. Shooting down noobs is fun, but just because they aren't as qualified as you, doesn't mean they don't have one or two valid observations hidden within their sloppily constructed rant.
You really have a giant chip on your shoulder don't you? Did a nerd bully you at school?:rolleyes: 0 -
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I never said coolness was a part of intelligence. That was a joke based on the argument that you can sum up such a wide range of abilities in one single number (intelligence quotient).Some schools of thought believe there are other forms of IQ - such as Spiritual, Social and Physical IQ (Muscle Memory, etc). There are of course Arithmetical IQs and Musical IQs as well. However the IQ test as it stands does not measure musical knowledge or coolness, because these are not relevant to Education. Because after all, if you can be educated, you can be taught anything else. Similarly a child needs to learn how to communicate before they go to school. Try and imagine life without language.I don't see how IQ's are counter-intuitive. Its an indicator that helps education systems with limited resources know which students have a higher aptitude for learning. Similarly you would be more inclined to sow your plant seeds in fertile soil. Imagine if Bill Gates (IQ 170) never went to the Prep School where he became so fascinated by computers?
Definitely though, attitude is taught. There are some elitist douchebags out there, but there are also humble prodigies. Its unfair to label all High IQ people with one large brush. Just because a student attends a Gifted Education Progrom does not make them arrogant. That depends on many other factors, and not every parent of a child prodigy is going to fill their child with that kind of crap either, so again, I think its unfair of you to claim this is the case.Granted most aren't like that (or are only to a small degree)
Yes, the education system needs needs changing. I'm not against streamed classes or anything. I'm just against telling children they're inherantly gifted and giving them special treatment (i deal with this later on).Yes they learn in their own time, the same way I surf Wikipedia. But when Billy is in school He is not on his time, He is on the schoolboard's time. And on the schoolboard's time a teacher tells Billy to do more of the same while she sits down with jimmy who still fails to understand long-division. Even though Billy has been eager and ready to learn the next step of the lesson for the last 25 minutes.
If your child is learning in 5 minutes what it takes another child 30 minutes to do, do you want your child to sit their for the other 25 minutes or do you want them to be in a class that works at that accelerated pace? "But he can just read the text book" Yea well, Big picture is he completes the curriculum in 1/6th of the time it takes the rest of the class. When you factor that by days weeks and months, thats a lot of wasted time.This is why we have Gifted Education Programs. As An File points out, not all Gifted Children have a talent for self-taught learning and work best with an active mentor/teacher to sponge knowledge from. Its not enough to expect them all to stumble upon quantum physics or the Bass Guitar.Why not? Whether or not a child is well adjusted is entirely up to their upbringing, and hence their parents. You can take that aspect of this discussion to the parenting forum.So what? My dad taught me multiplication years before I learned it in a classroom. That didnt make me arrogant.
But if you had everyone constantly praising your intelligence (and not anyone else's- even when siblings or friends are present)! Then yeah, there's a good chance it'd go to your head (also see 2 points below).Just because you can catch someone out in the wrong once in a while (a teacher, a parent) does not suddenly make you superior. This isnt fcuking Higlander, there can be Many.
If you think that because you caught your 6th class teacher out on an answer makes you superior, thats your issue.
I agree. But if you tell someone at that age that they were born extra talented, how are they not supposed to feel a bit superior?
Why not tell them what i consider to be the truth; that they have developed some good/great talents, and they now hold an advantage over their peers because of it, and if they keep developing their talents they might end up doing something really great with them.And I got that attention, after I was enrolled in Florida's Exceptional Student Education program in the 90s. I was given the free reign to sit at the IBMs and learn programs, or read books, and the music department was a far cry better than the place I had been going to. Chimes are fun.
What you are describing is EXCATLY what an ESE program is. Because these children learn the academics so quickly there is extra time allotted for Music, Reading, Computer Skills, and PE.
"They should do that for ALL Children though" - again, like I said before, in case you missed it, Education systems have finite resources. Those resources must be used strategically.
Education systems have Finite Resources. Were this opportunity to be afforded to all students, the budgets would be many times larger than it is currently.
I dissagree. I think all children should be given equal opportunities. I'm not saying we should ignore intelligent children, but i don't think we should give them special treatment to the detriment of other children.
I don't think the difference between someone with an IQ of 131 and someone else with an IQ of 121 is so large that it warrants the kid with the 131 iq being given a massive advantage. Due to IQ tests being limited in what they test for, the child with an iq of 121 could easily have way more potential than the kid with 131. If you look at people who achieve great things you'll see that their IQs although reasonably high, are usually not in the "genius" range and maybe not even in the "gifted" range. We should spread out resources as fairly as possible.Personality. Some are highly motivated, others are less so, and prefer to sit back and do nothing. Kind of like you, who is self professed as being lazy.
see above
what crapSo you understand! Then why do I have to explain this crap to you?? Valmount attacked that very statement. I see you agree with me on that point then. thanks 
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