Down the road: resurfacing and maintaining the interurbans

Amtmann

Firstly, sorry for the horrendous pun in this thread's title.

I want to raise a few issues here regarding the working life of the interurbans (including the Atlantic Corridor), and the costs that will be involved in maintaining them throughout this century.

Issue One - Resurfacing. Given that most sections of the interurbans are unlikely to ever reach full capacity, and because they are being built over-spec, is it probable that their surfaces will last for quite a long time before they need to be replaced? How many years are we looking at before the M9 Carlow Bypass or the M8 Cashel to Cullahill scheme, for instance, need to be entirely resurfaced?

Issue Two - Cost of Resurfacing. The interurbans are all going to open within a few years of each other. Given fairly consistent levels of traffic along much of their rural stretches, they will all need to be resurfaced within a relatively short timeframe. How confident are people that this will indeed be carried out, and are we looking at a major refurbishment of the motorway network once every 16 years or so, followed by a prolonged lull in motorway roadworks?

Issue Three - Asphalt. Asphalt production depends on oil being available and cheap. In the decades ahead, this is likely to become a major issue. Or is it? Are viable alternatives to asphalt surfacing being developed?

Please raise further issues as you think of them.

ardmacha

The M7 Naas bypass was only resurfaced a year or two ago, almost a quarter century after being built. The M1 into Belfast was only substantially overhauled in the last 10-12 years. The M1 Dunleer bypass is in good enough shape (generally) after 15 years. These roads are all much busier than many of the recent interurbans. So 16 years may be less than the actual gap. There is also a difference between a thin layer to smooth the surface and the need for comprehensive rebuilding of the road.

Amtmann

ardmacha wrote: »

There is also a difference between a thin layer to smooth the surface and the need for comprehensive rebuilding of the road.

Oh absolutely; I didn't mean to suggest that any of the roads would need a comprehensive rebuild. I had replacment of the wearing course only in mind. When this needs to be done (and it will need to be done), we'll have to do hundreds of kilometres within a shortish timescale, and I was simply querying the potential costs and difficulties that such a project will entail. I'd suspect myself that we'll be looking at a 16-21 year repavement cycle.

Celtic Warrior

ardmacha wrote: »

The M7 Naas bypass was only resurfaced a year or two ago, almost a quarter century after being built.

The old naas road was concrete. Concrete lasts alot longer in the U.S. they still built the interstates usung concrete. Recently in Antwerp the main ring motorway was redone concrete was the used material because of the lifespan issues.......

Celtic Warrior

1.You can recycle asphalt. May sound crazy but you can. This is quiet common abroad. Its striped off brought back to the plants and put through the process again.

2.The concrete barrier is the thing I would fear trying to keep them looking clean they have special machines for doing it but will they use them I wonder?

D.L.R.

Celtic Warrior wrote: »

2.The concrete barrier is the thing I would fear trying to keep them looking clean they have special machines for doing it but will they use them I wonder?

Lets clean our cities first!

Celtic Warrior

Haha good point....... there a shambles:D

Tipsy Mac

Motoring related taxes bring in €8 billion a year, there's enough money in that to resurface every inch or road in the country many times. At the moment only a tiny fraction of these taxes are spent on road building.

KevR

When did the Athlone Bypass open? Has it ever been resurfaced to date? It's busier than most of the interurbans will be. The surface isn't too bad but it could probably do with a resurface sometime in the next couple of years.

JupiterKid

KevR wrote: »

When did the Athlone Bypass open? Has it ever been resurfaced to date? It's busier than most of the interurbans will be. The surface isn't too bad but it could probably do with a resurface sometime in the next couple of years.

The Athlone Bypass opened fully in 1991. The easternmost section (from the Kilmartin roundabout to the N55) however opened three years earlier, in 1988. And yes, I think the Athlone bypass has been resurfaced, at least partially.

Furet has raised a very good and important point - the legacy of building so much of our interurban motorways in such a small space of time means that they will need to be resurfaced within a short space of time from each other.

I do think however that the quality of the original build will be an issue - sections that were built to a higher quality will probably need much less maintanance that sections with problems. Already, there are issues with settling and subsidence on parts of the new M8 and the M4.

I'm personally a bit concerned that the breakneck speed at which the motorways are being built means that corners have been cut in engineering terms which will mean problems with the new roads some years down the line.

Stupido

which is where PPPs come in.

The road companies will have to resurface the roads at least twice over the course of the concession period for collecting tolls.

PPPs are designed to be a 'design, build and maintain' contract.

This is the case with the M1, M4 and M3 I believe, and no doubt the other stretches of tolled roads.

Amtmann

Stupido wrote: »

which is where PPPs come in.

The road companies will have to resurface the roads at least twice over the course of the concession period for collecting tolls.

PPPs are designed to be a 'design, build and maintain' contract.

This is the case with the M1, M4 and M3 I believe, and no doubt the other stretches of tolled roads.

That still leaves us with the vast majority of the M7, M8, M11, M1 and all of the M9 to do, as well as most of the M18.

Stupido

Not really. Look at the attached for example.

M20 will be maintained for its entire length along with the CNRR
The M7 & M8 and other interurbans will also be maintained by whoever gets to toll them. They build a section, but then take-in-charge other built sections as part of the contract.

The M1 Dublin to Border is also being fully maintained by a PPP company.

More info on NRA website.


http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/PublicPrivatePartnership/file,16119,en.pdf

Amtmann

Stupido wrote: »

Not really. Look at the attached for example.

M20 will be maintained for its entire length along with the CNRR
The M7 & M8 and other interurbans will also be maintained by whoever gets to toll them. They build a section, but then take-in-charge other built sections as part of the contract.

Are you absolutely sure about that? That document you link to is tranche 2 of the PPPs - tranche 1 is different, no? So, hypothetically, the Fermoy Bypass operators (bearing in mind that the Fermoy Bypass is only 17.5km long) will have to resurface the Glanmire Bypass (6.5km), Watergrasshill Bypass (8km) and Mitchelstown to Fermoy scheme (16km), and the Cashel to Mitchelstown scheme (37km), while CRG (who are building the M7/M8 PPP) will have to resurface the Cashel Bypass (7km), the Cashel to Cullahill scheme (40km), the Nenagh to Castletown scheme (twenty-something kms) and Nenagh to Limerick (thirty-something)? Great if true!

marmurr1916

Furet wrote: »

That still leaves us with the vast majority of the M7, M8, M11, M1 and all of the M9 to do, as well as most of the M18.

A proposed PPP tender to build a dual-carriageway between Arklow and Rathnew on the N11 will also include the construction of the Newland's Cross interchange and the maintenance of about 45km of the N11/M11.

AFAIK, any future PPPs can have maintenance clauses added to them. For example, a contractor building a section of road between Waterford and Cork might be required to maintain existing sections of road not already maintained under contract.

There was a story in the Irish Times about a proposed new infrastructure construction bond.

Basically, Irish managed pension funds would put money into these bonds (which won't count as government borrowing under EU deficit rules) and get paid a guaranteed return in the future, with a premium of 2.5% over gilt rates.

The money raised by the bonds will then be used to finance infrastructure projects.

The story reckoned €6 billion plus could be raised this way initially.

Presumably if the initial bond was a success, more could be raised in the future:

IRISH PENSIONS funds have indicated to the Government they would be prepared to invest up to €6 billion over the next three years in a range of State infrastructure projects as part of a plan that could secure about 70,000 jobs in the construction industry here, The Irish Times has learned.

Under a detailed plan devised by the Construction Industry Council (CIC) and submitted to Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan in the run-up to the supplementary Budget, Irish pension funds would invest in a State infrastructure bond that would provide much-needed finance for the building of roads, railways, schools, hospitals and utility projects.

The funds would receive a return on their money over a period of possibly 20-25 years at a rate superior to that paid on Government gilts – possibly 2.5 percentage points above the rates offered for gilts.

Such a move would have two major benefits for the Government. It would provide cash for infrastructure projects that might otherwise be shelved due to the recession and it would sit “off balance sheet” and not count towards the crucial debt-to-GDP ratio, which has to be agreed with Brussels.

It is understood that the bond would not require the approval of the European Commission.

It would also provide a major stimulus to the construction industry here, securing about 70,000 jobs at a time when the industry is in disarray.

Carawaystick

Why is it only irish pension funds though? Why not international funds full stop? surely if it was a good idea the international money'd be in like Flynn?

are these a de-risked version of a ppp?


has anyone a ballpark cost per km to resurface D2?

Amtmann

Carawaystick wrote: »

has anyone a ballpark cost per km to resurface D2?

I wonder to what extent this is unknowable, given that it will all depend on the price of asphalt in twenty years time, which in turn depends on the price of oil. I'm curious as to how much asphalt could be recycled, as Celtic Warrior says, and I'm also interested to know if new surface types are being developed.

Celtic Warrior

Furet wrote: »

I'm curious as to how much asphalt could be recycled, as Celtic Warrior says, and I'm also interested to know if new surface types are being developed.

The dutch have a facility in place in Rotterdam which recycles asphalt from practially the whole country. Not quite sure how they do it. But its on the increase. The dutch have next to none of stone raw materials. They import them from Belgium and France on barges. So the recyling is of interest to them.

They actually use tonnes and tonnes of crushed rubble from demolished buildings as a sub base material for road building.

Also they have enigneered a type of asphalt called ZOAB (zeer open asphalt beton) which lets rain water soak straight through it could be p**sing and you wouldn't even notice.

Alun

Celtic Warrior wrote: »

Also they have enigneered a type of asphalt called ZOAB (zeer open asphalt beton) which lets rain water soak straight through it could be p**sing and you wouldn't even notice.

It's fantastic stuff in the rain alright, but some concerns have been raised that it's dry weather performance (mainly braking distance) is actually worse than the standard stuff when it gets older and more worn.

Zoney

Celtic Warrior wrote: »

ardmacha wrote: »

The M7 Naas bypass was only resurfaced a year or two ago, almost a quarter century after being built.

The old naas road was concrete. Concrete lasts alot longer in the U.S. they still built the interstates usung concrete. Recently in Antwerp the main ring motorway was redone concrete was the used material because of the lifespan issues.......

Considering the power of the concrete industry and their lobbying (look at the dearth of timber-frame houses) - surely there would be more roads using it if it was genuinely a better option? And we have tried it here in Ireland - I don't know that it was a success, in the case of the Naas Road the surface was quite horrendous for driving for decades - as are much of the roads in older estates around the country.

Carawaystick

I was in Saxony in the old East Germany in '96 or 97. the Autobahn was in the process of being widened and upgraded near Leipzig. There was a machine the width of a carriageway to lay a continuos concrete surface. we drove on some of it at 190kmh, in the rain, and there was a lot of spray but we didn't need to test the braking capability. I couldn't figure out how there were no expansion gaps, but it was much better than the old N7

busman

Zoney wrote: »

Celtic Warrior wrote: »

Considering the power of the concrete industry and their lobbying (look at the dearth of timber-frame houses) - surely there would be more roads using it if it was genuinely a better option? And we have tried it here in Ireland - I don't know that it was a success, in the case of the Naas Road the surface was quite horrendous for driving for decades - as are much of the roads in older estates around the country.

Maybe showing my age but the old N11 was my daily drive to enniscorty from 1992 to '95 I knew it was old but from the link below is seems that I was layed in 1928! Given it's age I have to say it lasted well. If they had only used concrete when the added about 2 feet to the width!

http://www.enniscorthyecho.ie/news/story/?trs=mhkfgbgbsn

ardmacha

Concrete can be laid to a high standard, like this new highway in Ontario. Also in Ontario the shoulders are gravel.

Amtmann

I think that's horrible!

L1011

The M4 KML scheme is 16 years old now and has only seen some patch panels done Westbound between Leixlip and Celbridge - where the traffic is going to be over 50000 AADT. Beyond there, where its about 45000 AADT to Maynooth and 35000 beyond the surface is grand still. Bit noisy compared to newer stuff - you can tell when you're driving over the patches - but thats it.