The Irish just accept things!

DWCommuter

M50 toll bridge causes chaos for years. A private company milks it for nearly 2 decades (with a Government blessing) and then gets paid off. The Government maintain the toll. Our bus services are poor. Our rail service is a joke. The luas just stole bus passengers. Its extensions are at the whim of developers and not commuters. Transport 21 was drawn up by politicians and civil servants that know nothing about public transport or commuting. The Navan railway project should be on the X-Files, while the WRC is beyond the X-Files! The inter urban roads are 4 years behind schedule. Metro North is seen as a panacea just because it was Government policity since 2000. The Interconnector, sorry, "DART UNDERGROUND" is becoming a fantasy playgroup for jaded planners in Inchicore , while our "Government" plays for time before the inevitable kick to touch that our near 20 billion deficit will require.

Meanwhile the financially defunct peasants of Ireland hardly bat an eyelid. While Im at it how can the red cow interchange be "freeflow" if there are lights regulating the Ballymount road upper junction? And is it true to say that all the cash we spent on it, isn't worth a beer mans fart, (to out bound traffic) because Newlands Cross still has lights?

Im looking at things that I don't fully understand and at things that I do. But Im still seeking those answers.:D

(Just back from "the continent" and **** me, its a lesson in how its done.)

Each and everyone of us should hang our heads in shame.

Random

We all hate the system but none of us seem bothered to do anything about it. Thus the system stays as it is.

Fantastic little world we live in all the same.

AlekSmart

Im looking at things that I don't fully understand and at things that I do. But Im still seeking those answers.

Each and everyone of us should hang our heads in shame.

DW there is a case to be made that the Irish are essentially problematic to govern either by imposed rule OR by their own hand.

Reading through the emotive threads regarding the Harristown Bus dispute I was struck by the numbers of angry punters who directed their 100% proof ire at Bus Drivers in general and even ONE in particular.

Plenty of folks lining up to berate Busdrivers and call for their sacking and replacement with Minimum Wage casual staff.....An Irish Solution to an Irish Problem yet again.

With attitudes such as this in abundance,I am left to ponder upon the wisdom of our continued Independence and wonder perhaps if we should not be looking for a "Friendly Takeover" by some well run,socially mindful state...Luxembourg perhaps....(After all,they DID have a very fine Radio Station) or Bolivia.

Instead we plod drunkenly along,happy in our feigned ignorance,as the usual suspects continue to insulate themselves against the worldwide rescession by imposing More Taxation on an ever dwindling group of productive workers in order to redistribute that money to an ever Increasing group of non-productive folks.....I am struggling to find some economic basis for this policy to succeed and I`m not having much luck !

In the meantime I can only add a big +1 to your well considered list of Financial Black Holes :eek:

amacachi

What shall we do? Walk everywhere? Move house? Not go to work? Vote for a party who would actually do something? OK so that last one was just silly.

DWCommuter

Random wrote: »

We all hate the system but none of us seem bothered to do anything about it. Thus the system stays as it is.

Fantastic little world we live in all the same.

I agree and disagree. There are those who are bothered, but they tend to get smothered by those who justify and play into the hands of the "system" through nothing more than self indulgence, ego and a very confused approach to using their vote.

Amtmann

Before accepting the superiority of all things continental, ponder for a moment Italian fascism, German Nazism, Belgian colonialism and the fact that the French are on their FIFTH republic (and counting). Beneath the veneer of civility and order lurks many a closeted skeleton.

DWCommuter

Furet wrote: »

Before accepting the superiority of all things continental, ponder for a moment Italian fascism, German Nazism, Belgian colonialism and the fact that the French are on their FIFTH republic (and counting). Beneath the veneer of civility and order lurks many a closeted skeleton.

And this country has the biggest, shrewdest and most closeted of all skeletons....Fianna Fail. A deft touch often conceals a public disaster.

Hagar

Furet wrote: »

Beneath the veneer of civility and order lurks many a closeted skeleton.

I wouldn't be too inclined to look under the surface in Ireland either.

godtabh

DWCommuter wrote: »

The Interconnector, sorry, "DART UNDERGROUND" is becoming a fantasy playgroup for jaded planners in Inchicore , while our "Government" plays for time before the inevitable kick to touch that our near 20 billion deficit will require..

The Interconnector is been done in the back of Heuston Station. The lead engineer knows his ****.

Off all the complaints you've made what would you do to sort it out. GIve some specifics

OK-Cancel-Apply

A recent Mercer study showed that Ireland's infrastructure and public transport is among the best in the world...

Amtmann

DWCommuter wrote: »

And this country has the biggest, shrewdest and most closeted of all skeletons....Fianna Fail. A deft touch often conceals a public disaster.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm under no illusions.

godtabh

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

A recent Mercer study showed that Ireland's infrastructure and public transport is among the best in the world...

Read studies on peoples attitudes to public transport and infrastructure. Its very hard to change these. Look what the did in Belgium and how they turned things around and yet still the customer satisfaction wasnt there

Zoney

Some attitudes about how bad Ireland is are about as useful as the people who stick their head in the sand and pretend everything's "grand". It's no good moaning on about all the deficiencies (and using hyperbole and extreme cases) without taking into account improvements that have come to pass, and as someone has pointed out, the failings of those to whom we would compare ourselves. A great many Irish emigrants have not had a fantastic time of it in their new surroundings. Maybe people have been too quick over the years to focus exclusively on greener grass abroad rather than just trying to improve the turf here.

10 years ago I took bus trips on bangers with bench seating that belched black smoke out the back. You almost exclusively travelled on winding country roads with poor surfaces even on the "interurbans". The trains were more unreliable than today, and often you had ancient carriages (admittedly these were comfortable if heating was working). Today I can book my train ticket online with a seat reservation, and indeed cheap fare if I travel off-peak. The M50, as bad as the toll booths were and as dodgy as all of West Dublin development has been, I can well remember how messy things were with no M50!

Now, I still believe in holding our current government to account. The 4 year delay on the interurbans for example has perhaps meant no finished N11, M20, etc. Our rail network needed a lot more than the 1990s "ontrack". Dublin Bus seems to not have progressed much beyond the bus renewals in the late 90s early 2000s. Bus Éireann city bus services leave much to be desired in Limerick and Cork at least - they are barely usable in my opinion and make Dublin Bus look like a model of efficiency.

But I do not think people should be writing off the country as some kind of mockery, particularly if they are actually from this country.

carlmango11

When things like this happen in a country, realistically, what can you do? I really want to know what the French would do, they know how to fight their government for what they want :D

Recently I've just been getting so angry with the stupidity of those in power. All the things that encourage people to stop working and screw the system. It's as if everyone but those in power know what to do. :mad::mad::mad:

Zebra3

DWCommuter wrote: »

M50 toll bridge causes chaos for years. A private company milks it for nearly 2 decades (with a Government blessing) and then gets paid off. The Government maintain the toll. Our bus services are poor. Our rail service is a joke. The luas just stole bus passengers. Its extensions are at the whim of developers and not commuters. Transport 21 was drawn up by politicians and civil servants that know nothing about public transport or commuting. The Navan railway project should be on the X-Files, while the WRC is beyond the X-Files! The inter urban roads are 4 years behind schedule. Metro North is seen as a panacea just because it was Government policity since 2000. The Interconnector, sorry, "DART UNDERGROUND" is becoming a fantasy playgroup for jaded planners in Inchicore , while our "Government" plays for time before the inevitable kick to touch that our near 20 billion deficit will require.

Meanwhile the financially defunct peasants of Ireland hardly bat an eyelid. While Im at it how can the red cow interchange be "freeflow" if there are lights regulating the Ballymount road upper junction? And is it true to say that all the cash we spent on it, isn't worth a beer mans fart, (to out bound traffic) because Newlands Cross still has lights?

Im looking at things that I don't fully understand and at things that I do. But Im still seeking those answers.:D

(Just back from "the continent" and **** me, its a lesson in how its done.)

Each and everyone of us should hang our heads in shame.

The vast majority of points you make are correct, however, I'm always bemused by the phrase "developer led" when it comes to things like extensions to the Luas. If developers are prepared to foot the bill for an extension to public transport to serve a (future) higher density area, what's the problem?

And while trains may be fantatstic in many parts of "the continent", the service/expense in many parts is appalling. Try travelling across northern Spain by train. It's an absolute nightmare. Try travelling through Denmark by train and see how it hits your wallet. It might have a higher cost of living than here, but the cost of public transport is just shocking.

MOH

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

A recent Mercer study showed that Ireland's infrastructure and public transport is among the best in the world...

Nope, that was Mercer's quality of living report - Dublin came 25th in that (out of 215).

Dublin doesn't even appear in the top 50 in the accompanying report on city infrastructure.

Link

Calina

May I voice an opinion?

One of the things that appalled me when I came back here 10 years ago was how little was considered to be great. I arrived back to a 1 billion euro investment package in Irish Rail.

Irish Rail had been under invested for years. 1 billion euro was, at best, going to be sticking plasters at that stage. We were supposed to believe that this was going to lead to miracles. How could it?

But they have upped their game. I don't necessarily like the way they have done everything but their punctuality is a big bit better than it was 10 years ago, they have reasonably decent new trains although I don't necessarily like every feature of them. Their online reservation and ticket collection system works.

Dublin Bus has also improved a lot. But it is very heavily hamstrung again, by factors outside its control. We need improving services, not deteriorating services. What we are getting, however, are deteriorating services.

These decisions are not necessarily made by the transport companies themselves, but implemented. The decisions are made higher up.

There is a tendancy in this country which pretty much amounts to "do as little as you can possibly get away with until your back is at the wall and then panic". Sometimes that work. The M50 is actually getting to be less stressful for me, the M7/N7 to Limerick has improved monumentally. As I've mentioned, there has been a big jump in improvement on the trains over the situation 15 years ago.

But, really, this is not the most efficient way of doing things. Ideally you plan ahead and act accordingly - an example here might be very high speed broadband to which Comreg seem to be assuming it's not all that necessary - we just don't do that here.

How we change things I am not really sure yet. I know we've a bundle of lobby organisations but if debates on here are anything to go by, a lot of ire is misdirected. We like things to be simple so we can be for or agin them. But the Civil War is long gone, and the world is rarely that simple.

We've made horrendous mistakes here. I was in Spain last week however, and believe me, they've made some horrific errors there too.

The problem is, because we have comparatively short term political mandates - say 5 years - and we are not attracting the right people to politics, and we the people want quick solutions, we don't have a practice of looking towards the long term.

Dublin Airport is building a big new terminal. At some stage, it might have been wiser to look at the location of Dublin Airport and query whether it might have been worth moving it to somewhere with a little more room to expand and where it can be more easily fitted onto the rail and road networks.

We are building motorways along existing roads instead of considering whether some of these could not be point to point rather than a series of bypasses built haphazardly.

I don't, per se, have an issue with tolls, M50 or otherwise. I do have issues with the way the collection side was set up. It's too complex.

The other thing I will say is that when I got back here and voiced some concern that things could be done better, I was told to go back to where I came from if it was so much better.

This is hardly a constructive attitude but hell in 1999 it was common.

Metrobest

Zoney wrote: »

10 years ago I took bus trips on bangers with bench seating that belched black smoke out the back. You almost exclusively travelled on winding country roads with poor surfaces even on the "interurbans". The trains were more unreliable than today, and often you had ancient carriages (admittedly these were comfortable if heating was working). Today I can book my train ticket online with a seat reservation, and indeed cheap fare if I travel off-peak. The M50, as bad as the toll booths were and as dodgy as all of West Dublin development has been, I can well remember how messy things were with no M50!
.

If anything, the intrastructure gap between Ireland and counties like France, Spain, Holland and Germany is actually worse now than it was 10 years ago. While Ireland has been phasing out banger buses, continental Europe has been building new roads, metro lines, high speed rail and introducing innovations that have made public transport a more user-friendly experience.

When you consider the astonishing economic boom Ireland experienced, it's almost scarcely believable that Dublin is not now benefiting from a world-class public transport system including more tram, metro and reliable bus lines; and that Dublin is not linked to Belfast on a fully-electified high speed line. The fruits of the economic boom were wasted on paying people ridiculous salaries in world's worst public service while Dublin was allowed develop into an unsustainable traffic-plagued nightmare.

The problem that has dogged Ireland for decades is the sheer lack of ambition. Dublin could and should be a world city that would act as a magnet to draw in the talented global Irish diaspora, but instead it's a dirty, unplanned, socially segregated city, unattractively wealthy in some parts and unattractively poor in many others. The transport system is so bad that a reasonably good tram line (luas) attracts more passengers than the Dart. Everything the state owns is staggeringly unproductive and outmoded. And there's too much pandering to special interests, whether that be developers in Lucan, tree huggers in Wicklow, or the conservationist lobby.

I think, though, that with the right leadership the country could change. But unfortunately it's hard to see that coming down the track given the political landscape today....

vandermeyde

Metrobest wrote: »

If anything, the intrastructure gap between Ireland and counties like France, Spain, Holland and Germany is actually worse now than it was 10 years ago. While Ireland has been phasing out banger buses, continental Europe has been building new roads, metro lines, high speed rail and introducing innovations that have made public transport a more user-friendly experience.

When you consider the astonishing economic boom Ireland experienced, it's almost scarcely believable that Dublin is not now benefiting from a world-class public transport system including more tram, metro and reliable bus lines; and that Dublin is not linked to Belfast on a fully-electified high speed line. The fruits of the economic boom were wasted on paying people ridiculous salaries in world's worst public service while Dublin was allowed develop into an unsustainable traffic-plagued nightmare.

The problem that has dogged Ireland for decades is the sheer lack of ambition. Dublin could and should be a world city that would act as a magnet to draw in the talented global Irish diaspora, but instead it's a dirty, unplanned, socially segregated city, unattractively wealthy in some parts and unattractively poor in many others. The transport system is so bad that a reasonably good tram line (luas) attracts more passengers than the Dart. Everything the state owns is staggeringly unproductive and outmoded. And there's too much pandering to special interests, whether that be developers in Lucan, tree huggers in Wicklow, or the conservationist lobby.

I think, though, that with the right leadership the country could change. But unfortunately it's hard to see that coming down the track given the political landscape today....

wow, that was a rant and a half.

In fairness a hell of a lot of work has been done over the last 15 years, not particularly joined up thinking for the most part, but this city is a gleeming urban oasis compared to the city that was on show in the likes of The Commitments circa the early 90's.

godtabh

Metrobest wrote: »

And there's too much pandering to special interests, whether that be developers in Lucan

any examples?

Gruffalo

DWCommuter wrote: »

M50 toll bridge causes chaos for years. A private company milks it for nearly 2 decades (with a Government blessing) and then gets paid off. The Government maintain the toll. Our bus services are poor. Our rail service is a joke. The luas just stole bus passengers. Its extensions are at the whim of developers and not commuters. Transport 21 was drawn up by politicians and civil servants that know nothing about public transport or commuting. The Navan railway project should be on the X-Files, while the WRC is beyond the X-Files! The inter urban roads are 4 years behind schedule. Metro North is seen as a panacea just because it was Government policity since 2000. The Interconnector, sorry, "DART UNDERGROUND" is becoming a fantasy playgroup for jaded planners in Inchicore , while our "Government" plays for time before the inevitable kick to touch that our near 20 billion deficit will require.

Meanwhile the financially defunct peasants of Ireland hardly bat an eyelid. While Im at it how can the red cow interchange be "freeflow" if there are lights regulating the Ballymount road upper junction? And is it true to say that all the cash we spent on it, isn't worth a beer mans fart, (to out bound traffic) because Newlands Cross still has lights?

Im looking at things that I don't fully understand and at things that I do. But Im still seeking those answers.:D

(Just back from "the continent" and **** me, its a lesson in how its done.)

Each and everyone of us should hang our heads in shame.

That is a fair argument, now what are we going to do about it?

How would Derek Wheeler improve the situation?

DWCommuter

Gruffalo wrote: »

That is a fair argument, now what are we going to do about it?

How would Derek Wheeler improve the situation?

You can read about it in my forthcoming book, "Tie me to the tracks" - The story of an Irish railway lobbyist.

Plug over.

Gruffalo

DWCommuter wrote: »

You can read about it in my forthcoming book, "Tie me to the tracks" - The story of an Irish railway lobbyist.

Plug over.

Are you serious?

I genuinely would like to read your ideas.

DWCommuter

Gruffalo wrote: »

Are you serious?

I genuinely would like to read your ideas.

Apologies. My original response was perhaps a little coarse. Yes I'm serious. The idea was put to me a year ago as something to consider for the future. But due to the rapid downturn in our financial situation, it has been brought forward, so its busy busy busy at the moment. There's an awful lot of work involved and its early days, so you'll appreciate that I can't say much more as certain people have still to be interviewed. I was asked to become involved in an alternative rail lobby and was tempted, but I think the book is a more worthwhile project.

I guess the cat is out of the bag now.:D

Judgement Day

Hi Derek - Put me down for a copy! Or maybe I'll swap you a copy of my forthcoming book on preservation 'Twenty wasted years' or perhaps thirty (?) - can't decide on the title!

ihatewallies

DWCommuter wrote: »

M50 toll bridge causes chaos for years. A private company milks it for nearly 2 decades (with a Government blessing) and then gets paid off. The Government maintain the toll. Our bus services are poor. Our rail service is a joke. The luas just stole bus passengers. Its extensions are at the whim of developers and not commuters. Transport 21 was drawn up by politicians and civil servants that know nothing about public transport or commuting. The Navan railway project should be on the X-Files, while the WRC is beyond the X-Files! The inter urban roads are 4 years behind schedule. Metro North is seen as a panacea just because it was Government policity since 2000. The Interconnector, sorry, "DART UNDERGROUND" is becoming a fantasy playgroup for jaded planners in Inchicore , while our "Government" plays for time before the inevitable kick to touch that our near 20 billion deficit will require.

Meanwhile the financially defunct peasants of Ireland hardly bat an eyelid. While Im at it how can the red cow interchange be "freeflow" if there are lights regulating the Ballymount road upper junction? And is it true to say that all the cash we spent on it, isn't worth a beer mans fart, (to out bound traffic) because Newlands Cross still has lights?

Im looking at things that I don't fully understand and at things that I do. But Im still seeking those answers.:D

(Just back from "the continent" and **** me, its a lesson in how its done.)

Each and everyone of us should hang our heads in shame.

you should anyway. if you like it so much there go and live there.
pure paddyology.

Calina

ihatewallies wrote: »

you should anyway. if you like it so much there go and live there.
pure paddyology.

Banned.

Merch

carlmango11 wrote: »

When things like this happen in a country, realistically, what can you do? I really want to know what the French would do, they know how to fight their government for what they want :D

Recently I've just been getting so angry with the stupidity of those in power. All the things that encourage people to stop working and screw the system. It's as if everyone but those in power know what to do. :mad::mad::mad:

I know this is off track, and I'm sure its just the way that part of your post sounds, I'm not inclined to think everyone wants to stop working and screw the system, as a recently (this year) unemployed person I also am so angry, in part as I hung on as long as possible and tried to stay employed when I would have been entitled to JB if I packed it in, instead now only been told I am entitled to nothing! and disheartened to what I hear is been given out to counselers.
I still think people are entitled to something bar the drunks I saw today complaining about their " bleedin is dole late 2 weeks,whats the story"

Regarding the posts, FF, 5 years, short term view, narrow minded cute hoors, amatuer politicians, an almost intentional attitude to not educating people about the political system so it seems relevant and understandable to ordinary people to the point they feel it has no bearing on their lives.
Maybe then they'd see the faults in it and vote changes in.

Schuhart

DWCommuter wrote: »

I agree and disagree. There are those who are bothered, but they tend to get smothered by those who justify and play into the hands of the "system" through nothing more than self indulgence, ego and a very confused approach to using their vote.

Indeed, I think you're right to bear in mind that the reason Zanu FF hold power is because people vote for them in large numbers. Using Occam's Razor, the most obvious explanation is that people vote for the party that gives them what they want. I'm not saying that's the right explanation - just that it needs to be seriously considered before being discounted.

That said, there is also some evidence of a disconnect between the voting process and what government ends up doing. I follow and contribute to discussions on politics.ie a bit. One of the things I've noticed is how you'll have threads that concentrate on what you'd expect to be matters of importance - banking crisis and whatever. But if you visit some of the threads about the local elections (or any past elections) at the constituency level there's still an awful lot of the 'O'Gombeen can be expected to poll very well around Naas, but the other crowd are running a terrible risk in having two candidates with a Newbridge base thus splitting their vote' as if the actual content of the party programmes, or their record in office, where actually quite minor affairs.

But whatever motivates people to vote, we do have to acknowledge that the reason Bertie Ahern was Taoiseach for so long (and the reason the most likely alternative to Brian Cowen is Enda Kenny) is because that's what the electorate have freely chosen.

Calina wrote: »

Dublin Airport is building a big new terminal. At some stage, it might have been wiser to look at the location of Dublin Airport and query whether it might have been worth moving it to somewhere with a little more room to expand and where it can be more easily fitted onto the rail and road networks.

I think the general point you make is valid enough, but this element struck me as wrong. Dublin Airport actually has plenty of space for expansion, as there was some foresight in that individual case (however that happened). What might reward study is how our main airport ended up with a runway too short to take long-haul jets. The upshot seems to be that we’ll end up with a larger terminal that we now won’t need, but without the runway that might help to fill it.

In fact, considering how resources were allocated to airports illuminates why Irish politics can frequently be like the property market. All that matters is location, location, location. It doesn’t matter what most of the staff of the Legal Aid Board do, if anything, so long as they do it in Cahirciveen.

Again, it comes back to how the act of voting in Ireland seems to be almost an uncontrolled spasm. I haven’t a damn clue what people get up to when they’re marking that ballot. But its hard to relate to making serious choices about how the country’s affairs might be managed.

DWCommuter wrote: »

You can read about it in my forthcoming book, "Tie me to the tracks" - The story of an Irish railway lobbyist.

Chalk up another sale. Sounds like the perfect Christmas present. (And I'm not kidding).

Gruffalo

DWCommuter wrote: »

Apologies. My original response was perhaps a little coarse. Yes I'm serious. The idea was put to me a year ago as something to consider for the future. But due to the rapid downturn in our financial situation, it has been brought forward, so its busy busy busy at the moment. There's an awful lot of work involved and its early days, so you'll appreciate that I can't say much more as certain people have still to be interviewed. I was asked to become involved in an alternative rail lobby and was tempted, but I think the book is a more worthwhile project.

I guess the cat is out of the bag now.:D

No apology necessary.

Best of luck with it. I look forward to reading it.

D'Peoples Voice

When you consider one of the most commonly used statement by our politicians is "All politics is local" you understand why Ireland is the way it is today!


Aside: should that not be "are local" if politics is a plural?