Are we less high minded than we make out?

Affable

We all like to make out we have these individual complexities and values, but when primal attraction takes over or we are in a pub, they go out the window. Do we overreach ourselves in what we strive for mentally? We like to try and disnguish but couldn't we really end up with virtually anyone? Isn't it all really random? The point is that we like to think there's this or that special person who we link with in unique ways, truth is we link with everyone in different ways and they can all strike us in powerful but different ways. But it's hard to say it's not pretty random who you end up with. Bar a few truly rank behaviours which are offensive to some of your most sensitive beliefs, mostly it is quite random.

Or, let me try and put it more succinctly-sensitivty is it's own reward and people can touch us, but isn't sometimes just shameless self promotion and brute force that gets through to us and eliminates individual complexities?

Joycey

Affable wrote: »

We all like to make out we have these individual complexities and values, but when primal attraction takes over or we are in a pub, they go out the window. Do we overreach ourselves in what we strive for mentally? We like to try and disnguish but couldn't we really end up with virtually anyone? Isn't it all really random? The point is that we like to think there's this or that special person who we link with in unique ways, truth is we link with everyone in different ways and they can all strike us in powerful but different ways. But it's hard to say it's not pretty random who you end up with. Bar a few truly rank behaviours which are offensive to some of your most sensitive beliefs, mostly it is quite random.

Or, let me try and put it more succinctly-sensitivty is it's own reward and people can touch us, but isn't sometimes just shameless self promotion and brute force that gets through to us and eliminates individual complexities?

Even if you were to grant the assumption that we are determined entirely by our genes and our environment, the exact mix of both of those determining influences is unique in each individual case -> everybody is unique.

As far as being high minded goes, Im an animal, I dont claim not to be an animal. High minded is a subjective value judgement so whoever thinks they are high minded is entitled to their beliefs, doesnt matter whether its true or not.

Affable

Joycey wrote: »

Even if you were to grant the assumption that we are determined entirely by our genes and our environment, the exact mix of both of those determining influences is unique in each individual case -> everybody is unique.
.

I agree with that. I'm not denying people's uniqueness. The point I'm making is that we can't stick to our values or our sensitivities about how people touch us as much as we'd like, because brute force, impact, circumstance has more power and sways us into relationships more.

Make any sense?

Communicationb

I like to remind myself and others every so often that:-

(As the song goes)... "We are not as smart as we like to think we are."

Joycey

Affable wrote: »

I agree with that. I'm not denying people's uniqueness. The point I'm making is that we can't stick to our values or our sensitivities about how people touch us as much as we'd like, because brute force, impact, circumstance has more power and sways us into relationships more.

Make any sense?

Yeah it does. But what if I were to put it to you that these values and sensitivities and concious reasons for doing X and Y, werent actually our reasons for doing the things we do at all. All there are are the circumstances, the drives in our psyche, the options which we can perceive due to the way we have been conditioned. Any claim that we are operating on principles or that we make our decisions based on this or that are actually kind of justifications after the event.

There are many experiments showing that this is the case at least with very simple behaviours. For example there was one where they got volunteers to taste test jam in a supermarket. They got them to taste say gooseberry and raspberry the first time and ask them which they prefer. Then they asked them to taste whichever one they preferred again, but this time to say why they preferred this one. However, unknown to the experimentee they actually swapped the flavours. So even though they were radically different tastes the volunteers came up with rational explanations for why they preferred the second one, even though it was obviously complete BS, because that wasnt even the one they preferred.

This is just a simple example showing, at least in cases like this, that our purported rationality is really just an attempt to explain to ourselves why we did such and such after the event.

Affable

Communicationb wrote: »

I like to remind myself and others every so often that:-

(As the song goes)... "We are not as smart as we like to think we are."

Is that a pointed reminder to me, or a comment on the subject of the thread(or both)?

Affable

Joycey wrote: »

Yeah it does. But what if I were to put it to you that these values and sensitivities and concious reasons for doing X and Y, werent actually our reasons for doing the things we do at all. All there are are the circumstances, the drives in our psyche, the options which we can perceive due to the way we have been conditioned. Any claim that we are operating on principles or that we make our decisions based on this or that are actually kind of justifications after the event.

There are many experiments showing that this is the case at least with very simple behaviours. For example there was one where they got volunteers to taste test jam in a supermarket. They got them to taste say gooseberry and raspberry the first time and ask them which they prefer. Then they asked them to taste whichever one they preferred again, but this time to say why they preferred this one. However, unknown to the experimentee they actually swapped the flavours. So even though they were radically different tastes the volunteers came up with rational explanations for why they preferred the second one, even though it was obviously complete BS, because that wasnt even the one they preferred.

This is just a simple example showing, at least in cases like this, that our purported rationality is really just an attempt to explain to ourselves why we did such and such after the event.

That's deep stuff. I will give it a think later. But for now, what about the more basic question, on a more practical level, in terms of personal experience- Do you ever find that you sometimes really appreciate someone's beauty or complexity or uniqueness but someone who is not in anyway as mysterious, attractive, intelligent(or any other number of complimentary adjectives)as them, but is forceful, pushy, self promoting, demanding and much more banal makes more impact on you and takes your attention away from who you value leaving you somewhat disturbed by the conflict going on between what you want to feel in your 'objective mind' as it were, and what you actually do feel? How do you/would you(if you haven't experienced it) rationalise and deal with that?

nobodythere

Affable wrote: »

We all like to make out we have these individual complexities and values, but when primal attraction takes over or we are in a pub, they go out the window. Do we overreach ourselves in what we strive for mentally? We like to try and disnguish but couldn't we really end up with virtually anyone? Isn't it all really random? The point is that we like to think there's this or that special person who we link with in unique ways, truth is we link with everyone in different ways and they can all strike us in powerful but different ways. But it's hard to say it's not pretty random who you end up with. Bar a few truly rank behaviours which are offensive to some of your most sensitive beliefs, mostly it is quite random.

Or, let me try and put it more succinctly-sensitivty is it's own reward and people can touch us, but isn't sometimes just shameless self promotion and brute force that gets through to us and eliminates individual complexities?

(at the risk of being banned) the last 5 threads I've clicked on have turned out to be you. Sort your head out!

nobodythere

Joycey wrote: »

Yeah it does. But what if I were to put it to you that these values and sensitivities and concious reasons for doing X and Y, werent actually our reasons for doing the things we do at all. All there are are the circumstances, the drives in our psyche, the options which we can perceive due to the way we have been conditioned. Any claim that we are operating on principles or that we make our decisions based on this or that are actually kind of justifications after the event.[/I].

Well said, I've caught myself trying to use reason to justify my actions (before I gave up on it), while in retrospect I was selectively ignoring certain aspects of the decision and my true desire/will manifested through it regardless.

However, I will say is don't underestimate the human potential to transcend our conditioning, as it is merely a function of the ego.

Affable

grasshopa wrote: »

(at the risk of being banned) the last 5 threads I've clicked on have turned out to be you. Sort your head out!

Hey dude. So,we can all think can't we? No law against it. Don't have to click on me threads.

ynotdu

Communicationb wrote: »

I like to remind myself and others every so often that:-

(As the song goes)... "We are not as smart as we like to think we are."(or so We think)