Frequently asked questions about suitable electric showers!

Joey the lips

Scorpio Girl wrote: »

i have a power shower that i need to heat the water for. every morning the immersion comes on for an hour, i have a shower, maybe 7 minutes long and that's about all the hot water i get from having the immersion on for an hour. is this right or do i need to get something checked out?

With a power shower thats perfectly normal. You can get it switched to a pumped electric which will heat water on demand but as its only yourself I dont think its worth the money. Just set your thermostat to bath and out it on a bit longer and you will get a little longer.

The length will depend on the power within the shower

Scorpio Girl

thanks for that joey the lips.

bog master

Have just moved to a new house, ie rented accomodation. Two showers, a Triton in the main bathroom and a power shower in the en suite. Now I know the power shower pulls the hot water from the immersion tank, which is one that is lagged all over with that green foam type insulation.Now once the central heating is being used, the water will obviously be heated up. But how can you tell how much or is the water hot enough?

Is there a temp sensor that could be fitted to the tank telling the temp?

Stratocaster

Scorpio Girl wrote: »

i have a power shower that i need to heat the water for. every morning the immersion comes on for an hour, i have a shower, maybe 7 minutes long and that's about all the hot water i get from having the immersion on for an hour. is this right or do i need to get something checked out?

Joey the lips wrote: »

With a power shower thats perfectly normal. You can get it switched to a pumped electric which will heat water on demand but as its only yourself I dont think its worth the money. Just set your thermostat to bath and out it on a bit longer and you will get a little longer.

The length will depend on the power within the shower

Joey you were kind enough to comment on my advice which I don't mind. When you start to include childish insults I do mind. I have briefly read over your shower thread there's a few things I can comment on but this will do for now.

I shouldn't have to write this up, a lone occupant should be able to stay in a shower for over 7mins with a shower supplied by a standard cylinder, heated for one hour.

Scorpio Girl has a power shower with a problem, its only lasting approx 7mins with an immersion on for one full hour. Scorpio Girl has not stated which immersion setting is used. I feel an immersion set to either bath or sink for one full hour is sufficient enough to heat the majority of the cylinder and provide a lengthy shower.

Lets say its a typical Irish house with 117ltrs of stored hot water. The cylinder is located close to the power shower. A power showers average flow rate is 6 to 15ltr per min approx. Remember this is both hot and cold so its true to say a good average of hot water flow rate would be around 8ltr per min.

Scorpio Girl is enjoying her shower but it only lasts for 7mins before getting cold. To me Scorpio Girl is experiencing a problem and must be looked at.

7mins at 8ltr per min shouldn't empty the cylinder. As you draw the hot water from the cylinder cold water enters and cools the hot water stored to some extent. With this factor in mind I believe Scorpio Girl should be able to stay and enjoy her shower for another 4 to 5 min.

To me the immersion is not heating the cylinder to its full potential and may be need to be adjusted to increase the temperature or may have some limescale build up which requires replacing.

Stratocaster

Here is some information which is in general not passed out by shower sales representatives or interior designers.

Electric element showers pumped or non pumped.

Expensive running costs, susceptible to damage from limescale. An un known life span depending on water quality and the amount of use. Noisy to use. Ascetics (looks) are dependent on price range. The flow rate is dependent on temperature of cold supply and temperature setting to shower head. Based on a quick Google search of 3 leading manufactures. Flow rates form 4ltr to 6ltr per minute. Guarantees from 1 to 3 years.

Pumped or power showers.

Less running costs compared to an electric element shower. Susceptible to damage from limescale. An un known life span depending on water quality and amount of use. Noisy to use. Ascetics (looks) are dependent on price range. Flow rates are dependent on price range. Based on a quick Google search of 3 leading manufactures. Flow rates from 6ltr to 15lt per minute. Guarantees from 1 to 3 years.

Thermostatic cartridge shower mixing valves.

No electrical running costs. Can be susceptible to damage from limescale. Thermostatic cartridge is sensitive to quality and temperature of water. Maintenance of the cartridge may be required. Ascetics (looks) are dependent on price range. Flow rates depended upon supply and shower head. Google search of 3 leading manufactures. Flow rates from 18ltr to 45ltr per minute with a pressurized supply 1.5 to 4 bar. Guarantees from 3 to 5 years.

Manual shower mixing valves.

No electrical running costs. Can be susceptible to damage from limescale but less susceptible than all of the above. Shower water temperature can vary while in use. Scalding risks from an un controlled hot water supply. Ascetics (looks) are dependent on price range. Flow rates depended upon supply and shower head. Google search of 3 leading manufactures. Flow rates from 18ltr to 45ltr per minute with a pressurized supply 1.5 to 4 bar. Guarantees from 3 to 5 years.

Shower heads. Flexible hose with adjustable rail.

Quality and ascetics (looks) are dependent on price range. Might become blocked, loose, damaged, broken, kinked. Might require replacements and shower head cleaning.

Shower heads. Fixed.

Quality and ascetics (looks) are dependent on price range. No height adjustment available. Shower head might require unblocking.


I have taken the time to write this up as I feel a shower is an important area within a household, for some it is the most and you should be made aware of all the factors. I am providing this information based on over 10 qualified years in the plumbing industry backed up by a Google search on the main manufactures specifications.


My Ideal shower would be a double outlet thermostatic cartridge shower mixing valve with pressurized supply. Fixed head with a small hand set for hair washing etc.

This alternative to me is best as it minimizes all the disadvantages you see listed above and in general will outlast electric/power showers. It will deliver a powerful shower similar to those you have experienced in top Hotels.

This system can be installed in both new build and retro fit shower replacements. There may be some other additions within your plumbing system to facilitate a shower of this performance. These additions are best discussed on site with your qualified plumber.

Joey the lips

Stratocaster wrote: »

Joey you were kind enough to comment on my advice which I don't mind. When you start to include childish insults I do mind. I have briefly read over your shower thread there's a few things I can comment on but this will do for now.

.

There is noting childish about what I have said I do apologise if I have offended I can point out all the mistakes but that would be childish. What I have suggested is standard, Its a test, why cause most people actually do not set showers an hour before, what most women do is get up use all the hot water washing there hair then expect to have hot water for a shower. Simply setting it an hour earlier will confirm if this is the case.

Most people on this topic want a DIY solution not a trades man to call around,

Stratocaster

Joey the lips wrote: »

There is noting childish about what I have said I do apologise if I have offended I can point out all the mistakes but that would be childish. What I have suggested is standard, Its a test, why cause most people actually do not set showers an hour before, what most women do is get up use all the hot water washing there hair then expect to have hot water for a shower. Simply setting it an hour earlier will confirm if this is the case.

Most people on this topic want a DIY solution not a trades man to call around,

Your comments towards my experience are childish comments based on quick assumptions. You are welcome to go over my posts and make me aware of any mistakes I have made with regard to showers. I mentioned a showers life expectancy based on my own experiences, with out stating its from my experiences. That is the only partial mistake I have made to my knowledge.

If you take the time and actually read the information in detail you will in fact see some of my comments are backed up with real life experiences expressed by the posters.

You make reference to a "DIY" solution is required not a "trades man" solution. A trades mans solution is a qualified solution not a DIY solution. Some of the matters raised in the DIY thread require a qualified solution for obvious health and safety reasons, not a DIY solution which can effect the health and safety of others.

I don't mean to pick on you but you left me with no alternative due to some of your comments within my advice and this whole affair has raised my concern of safety to others. I am in the process of discussing these concerns with the senior moderator and I hope to find a way to make the DIY section a more reliable and safe resource for all those interested in gas, heating and plumbing matters.

Stratocaster

bog master wrote: »

Have just moved to a new house, ie rented accomodation. Two showers, a Triton in the main bathroom and a power shower in the en suite. Now I know the power shower pulls the hot water from the immersion tank, which is one that is lagged all over with that green foam type insulation.Now once the central heating is being used, the water will obviously be heated up. But how can you tell how much or is the water hot enough?

Is there a temp sensor that could be fitted to the tank telling the temp?

Tanks are located in the attic etc, cylinders store your hot water.

If you require reassurance of your cylinder heated fully or to what extent, there is some cylinder control stats available. The stat reads the cylinder temp and sends a signal to a control. Once the stat is happy the cylinder has reached the required temp it will close off a thermo or electric valve located on the cylinders heat source. Where you locate and attach the stat to the cylinder is the key to the reading, top, middle, bottom etc.

This type of cylinder control must be fit by a qualified person. Should no by pass be available and your rads are turned off, an isolated cylinder heat supply during boiler use will result in no circulation and this must not happen within a heating system.

offalyal

Hi, I have a Mira Sprint electric shower. It's about 7 years old and has stopped heating the water. It was never much good anyway so would like to replace it with a new one. Can anyone recommend a good make / model? Also can anyone recommend someone to fit it in the West Offaly area. I would like to get one with a higher wattage as have heard that you get better water flow from them. Thanks

Davy

If your not happy with the pressure from it, i would suggest you think about a pumped shower. The downside is it would require alerting the pipework to fit it, and you need to preheat the water from gas/oil boiler or from the immersion, where staying with an electric shower it will more a less be swap for swap model dependent. If you do go for a higher kw rating it may require a rewire from the board. Whats in is probably 6sq and may need to be changed to 10, some will and some wont as its border line.

Stratocaster

offalyal wrote: »

Hi, I have a Mira Sprint electric shower. It's about 7 years old and has stopped heating the water. It was never much good anyway so would like to replace it with a new one. Can anyone recommend a good make / model? Also can anyone recommend someone to fit it in the West Offaly area. I would like to get one with a higher wattage as have heard that you get better water flow from them. Thanks

Same as Davey, if its at all possible you should look at other shower alternatives. The flow from an electric shower is a poor flow compared to other shower alternatives outside electric ones. You will end up in the same situation in a few more years so its best to take the time now and get yourself a good reliable shower with a decent flow.

lucernarian

Remember, a pumped shower is not for everyone's needs. We've got a T90 put in 6 months ago. A big improvement on the old T80 that was mains-fed (by a well pump, so the shower temp varied from cool to too hot every 2 minutes). The immersion heater is out of order at the moment, so there's no hot water available. Even if it was, it would take up to half an hour to have a full tank of hot water.

The electric (pump inside) ones are very convenient. A bit noisy, but at least I don't have to switch the power levels every 20 seconds to try to juggle with fluctuating pressure. Or worry about getting enough hot water in time.

Stratocaster

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Remember, a pumped shower is not for everyone's needs. We've got a T90 put in 6 months ago. A big improvement on the old T80 that was mains-fed (by a well pump, so the shower temp varied from cool to too hot every 2 minutes). The immersion heater is out of order at the moment, so there's no hot water available. Even if it was, it would take up to half an hour to have a full tank of hot water.

The electric (pump inside) ones are very convenient. A bit noisy, but at least I don't have to switch the power levels every 20 seconds to try to juggle with fluctuating pressure. Or worry about getting enough hot water in time.

Anytime I have striped out electric/pumped showers and replaced with an alternative, the customer never once came back with lack of hot water issues etc, you will adapt to it, fixing an immersion is a fraction of the cost compared to an electric/pumped shower.

The only mention I hear is, how did we ever manage with the electric.

Davy

Stratocaster wrote: »

The only mention I hear is, how did we ever manage with the electric.

+1

I put in an electric in my own place and only used it twice in 2 years. Even in a rush with no hot water i wait the 15minutes for the boiler to heat the water.

Joey the lips

Pumped electric showers are most popular in houses with girls, In fact when I am counting water demand I double up for girl teenagers. I once did a house where the girl shower 4 times a day. Jesus I though it amazing the T90 last the years it did.

Power showers as in Cylinder Hot tank cold are the most popular site shower but the biggest changeover new installiation is a pumped electric T90/Mira Elite

TBH if you can adjust to it NOTHING on the plannet beats the power of a Aqualisa Aquastream Power shower. It truly is the dogs

Stratocaster

Joey the lips wrote: »

Pumped electric showers are most popular in houses with girls, In fact when I am counting water demand I double up for girl teenagers. I once did a house where the girl shower 4 times a day. Jesus I though it amazing the T90 last the years it did.

Power showers as in Cylinder Hot tank cold are the most popular site shower but the biggest changeover new installiation is a pumped electric T90/Mira Elite

TBH if you can adjust to it NOTHING on the plannet beats the power of a Aqualisa Aquastream Power shower. It truly is the dogs

Whats the flow rate of that? I could by a cheap b&q booster pump and the cheapest shower mixer available in heatmerchants, not only will it outlast the above shower you mention, I will probably have to increase the size of the shower outlet so it can keep up with the amount of water.

Electric pumped showers, haven't seen one more than 20ltr per min.

Boosted pumped mixer showers, haven't seen one less than 20ltr per min most of them are in the 25 to 45ltr per min.

I have installed one here and its just a 1.5bar stuart turner, I cant even turn it up full.

lucernarian

Still, a lot of money to spend, to have a higher flow rate. And just because customers haven't complained about it, doesn't mean that all customers will end up liking it. Naturally customers who don't want it, won't get one to begin with. Like my mum for example, who likes them but told the plumber her reasons against getting it fitted a few months ago. Unless you leave the immersion permanently switched on, you will not be certain of having hot water for the shower. And it is overkill to have to adjust our perfectly functional heating system of 35 years age to give our waist-high storage tank a dedicated circuit.

Finally, larger flow rates for a given hot water temperature = larger kW spent in thermal energy, unless my physics are mistaken?? And if a flow rate is eg twice greater, I doubt that equates to half the time spend in it. Therefore, we're talking about higher energy running costs too.

Anyway, everyone has our own preferences. My point is that the pumped hot/cold fed showers are not "the natural progression" or the straightforward choice that they're being made to be.

Joey the lips

Stratocaster wrote: »

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Whats the flow rate of that? I could by a cheap b&q booster pump and the cheapest shower mixer available in heatmerchants, not only will it outlast the above shower you mention, I will probably have to increase the size of the shower outlet so it can keep up with the amount of water.

Electric pumped showers, haven't seen one more than 20ltr per min.

Boosted pumped mixer showers, haven't seen one less than 20ltr per min most of them are in the 25 to 45ltr per min.

I have installed one here and its just a 1.5bar stuart turner, I cant even turn it up full.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Still, a lot of money to spend, to have a higher flow rate. And just because customers haven't complained about it, doesn't mean that all customers will end up liking it. Naturally customers who don't want it, won't get one to begin with. Like my mum for example, who likes them but told the plumber her reasons against getting it fitted a few months ago. Unless you leave the immersion permanently switched on, you will not be certain of having hot water for the shower. And it is overkill to have to adjust our perfectly functional heating system of 35 years age to give our waist-high storage tank a dedicated circuit.

Finally, larger flow rates for a given hot water temperature = larger kW spent in thermal energy, unless my physics are mistaken?? And if a flow rate is eg twice greater, I doubt that equates to half the time spend in it. Therefore, we're talking about higher energy running costs too.

Anyway, everyone has our own preferences. My point is that the pumped hot/cold fed showers are not "the natural progression" or the straightforward choice that they're being made to be.

The flow rates are

1 metre head - normal - 10 ltr/min
1 metre head - boost - 18 ltr/min

Just enough to give you a decent shower out of a 36 x 18 cylinder. My understanding of a stuart turner is that its rated at 9 liters a minute. I dont understand the comparission. I am just giving my opinion


and its thermostatic. The cheapest thermostatic valve heatmerchants does is about 60 euro the cheapest pump is about 150 yes. all that said. but regardless Its a simple case of do you prefere one or the other, I guarantee you anyone who has an aquastream loves it and to boot the plumbing is simple.

This is not about science I am sorry I am not trying to sell a product to someone who needs convincing I know its good and so does its users so either go with a

Thermostatic valve and a booster pump Pluses= +'s cheaper to replace surface valve or pump, -'s Expensive to plumb

Aquastream= +'s Cheaper and easier to plumb, Excellent customer service -'s the +'s on above

Aquastream power shower, imo the dogs!

http://help.tradingdepot.co.uk/bathrooms/aqualisa/aquastream-thermo.asp

Stratocaster

Irelands in the dark ages when it comes to plumbing systems, only here and in the UK do we have a gravity fed system as far a I am aware.

To keep up with the rest of the world the ideal way to plumb your house is to pressurize your entire house, attic tank into a cold water boost pump which supplies your colds and your hots from a pressurized quick recovery cylinder. Cylinder heated by oil, gas, geo, solar etc.

This way it will be economical and give you a good supply to enjoy a decent shower for many hassle free years.

If you want to continue to stick with your good old fashioned gravity fed system with a quick loss copper cylinder and a piddle shower, work away.

I had some contracts from the eastern health board for the fitting of disabled shower areas in retro fit houses, I wasn't allowed use an electric or pumped shower the reasons being, electricity in a shower, chances of being scalded in a shower, poor flow rate for washing of the user.

Joey the lips

Stratocaster wrote: »

Irelands in the dark ages when it comes to plumbing systems, only here and in the UK do we have a gravity fed system as far a I am aware.

To keep up with the rest of the world the ideal way to plumb your house is to pressurize your entire house, attic tank into a cold water boost pump which supplies your colds and your hots from a pressurized quick recovery cylinder. Cylinder heated by oil, gas, geo, solar etc.

This way it will be economical and give you a good supply to enjoy a decent shower for many hassle free years.

If you want to continue to stick with your good old fashioned gravity fed system with a quick loss copper cylinder and a piddle shower, work away.

I had some contracts from the eastern health board for the fitting of disabled shower areas in retro fit houses, I wasn't allowed use an electric or pumped shower the reasons being, electricity in a shower, chances of being scalded in a shower, poor flow rate for washing of the user.

Me? why are you jumping like this. Have you got specific problems with the topic whats this got to do with with the suitability of an electric shower? I would stick with what I have because to pressurise a system correctly you commonly need

MQ35 @ 600
Pressurised Cylinder @ 300-400
a lot of plumbing

The general rule i apply is if materials cost you a thousend labour will cost 2k..

On a domestic system that costs far to much for me to start upgrading my situation. This is not taking into account the usual amount of leeks that occurs when you pressurise the system first.

Yes a pressurised system above with a walk in shower 6 body jets a 12" fixed head and seperate riser rail would be the perfect life and yes ireland in antiquated when it comes to euro I am not argueing with that!

I have simply said in this subject that my fav shower is an aquastream and the topic is finding a suitable electric shower.


On the eastern health board if you are not allowed use electric showers there is specific reasons.These reasons are most likely specified by the OT and apply to that client only. I actually have a copy of the notes that give guidelines. The notes specifically state a power shower thermo is the norm( Conincidence that an aquastream is just this although i usually use a cheaper version) it also has a provision for a gravity fed thermopower shower. As you know there is not many thermo power showers that are gravity fed which is why modern plants Mira BIV is commonly used. It has the necessary wide bore! I have also seen installiations which i never thought would be passed where a pumped electric shower(T90) is used. What people commonly do is have the power shower fitted then when the grant is paid out they have a plumber change to a T90 but the OT will sign off on the pumped electric if the mobility is not to severe. I always though this a risky thing to do.

davelerave

Stratocaster wrote: »

Irelands in the dark ages when it comes to plumbing systems, only here and in the UK do we have a gravity fed system as far a I am aware.

To keep up with the rest of the world the ideal way to plumb your house is to pressurize your entire house, attic tank into a cold water boost pump which supplies your colds and your hots from a pressurized quick recovery cylinder. Cylinder heated by oil, gas, geo, solar etc.

This way it will be economical and give you a good supply to enjoy a decent shower for many hassle free years.

If you want to continue to stick with your good old fashioned gravity fed system with a quick loss copper cylinder and a piddle shower, work away.

I had some contracts from the eastern health board for the fitting of disabled shower areas in retro fit houses, I wasn't allowed use an electric or pumped shower the reasons being, electricity in a shower, chances of being scalded in a shower, poor flow rate for washing of the user.

most of the domestic one-offs i see are pressurized now.with combi/condensing oil
boilers or geo mostly(no gas here)

Joey the lips

davelerave wrote: »

most of the domestic one-offs i see are pressurized now.with combi/condensing oil
boilers or geo mostly(no gas here)

gas efficency dave! although the bathrooms are still traditional gravity. As far as I am concerned the govt missed the oppertunity to get the gas efficency right. At the peak there was 200,000+ apts/house built a year, last year there was 70+ Assuming that the peak lasted 3 years thats 600k houses apts/houses with gravity systems or combi cylindrs and 330N Booster pumps. A very poor energy efficency system.

All these apt blocks should have been solarpaneled at the very least. The commenal lights and heating could have been dual fuel saving on management fees etc.

Its a massive waste of resources! and yes it was rec years ago.

offalyal

Thanks everyone for all the info. I would just like to ask one more question please. Am I right in thinking that I have to stick with the same type of electric shower that I have at the moment because we have a second bathroom with a shower that is linked up to the immersion tank?

Joey the lips

offalyal wrote: »

Thanks everyone for all the info. I would just like to ask one more question please. Am I right in thinking that I have to stick with the same type of electric shower that I have at the moment because we have a second bathroom with a shower that is linked up to the immersion tank?

In a normal situation and with current systems in houses the best system IMO would be a cylinder fed power shower in the ensuite. This can involve a pump in the hot press of a shower with built in pump like an Aquastrea. This usually uses the stored water so its important you set the heating /immersion but this really is not a problem for most,

Then in the main bathroom I would put a pumped electric T90. This allows you have water on demand for you if you forget to set the immersion it also allows you cater for visitors.

I cannot remember what you have but hope this helps

Just looked back on your posts you have the sprint. Its a good shower I would just get a new one. Less costly plumbing at this recession time

offalyal

If i got a T90 pumped shower fitted in the main bathroom, could this be used at the same time as the shower in the ensuite which is linked to the immersion water heater?

Joey the lips

offalyal wrote: »

If i got a T90 pumped shower fitted in the main bathroom, could this be used at the same time as the shower in the ensuite which is linked to the immersion water heater?

You have a power shower in the ensuite, Yes it can be used at the same time.

Stratocaster

Not taking a dig I just have a passion against electric/pumped showers, for most people a shower its the only place they can take a break from the world for ten minutes.

There is a big difference on how you will physically feel coming out of an electric/pumped shower compared to a pressurized mixer shower.

I like to do the best job I can and I don't feel like I have done a good job if I resorted to fitting an electric/pumped shower.

Like I have said ages ago, it depends on your installations, I generally don't work in 1 bed apartments or offices etc where these showers are commonly installed. If you have more than 1 or 2 bed rooms you really shouldn't be considering an electric shower in this day and age.

Joey the lips

Stratocaster wrote: »

Not taking a dig I just have a passion against electric/pumped showers, for most people a shower its the only place they can take a break from the world for ten minutes.

There is a big difference on how you will physically feel coming out of an electric/pumped shower compared to a pressurized mixer shower.

I like to do the best job I can and I don't feel like I have done a good job if I resorted to fitting an electric/pumped shower.

Like I have said ages ago, it depends on your installations, I generally don't work in 1 bed apartments or offices etc where these showers are commonly installed. If you have more than 1 or 2 bed rooms you really shouldn't be considering an electric shower in this day and age.

Our feelings dont matter! its the customers requirements that matter otherwise every car dealer would only sell mercedes and BMW and every plumbing shop would only sell Grohe valves.

Its demand that counts.

On demand a triton t90 experiences its most serious use in a 3 bed house with 2-3 kids as i said I generally count girls twice!

Stratocaster

Joey the lips wrote: »

Our feelings dont matter! its the customers requirements that matter otherwise every car dealer would only sell mercedes and BMW and every plumbing shop would only sell Grohe valves.

Its demand that counts.

On demand a triton t90 experiences its most serious use in a 3 bed house with 2-3 kids as i said I generally count girls twice!

Your still missing the point, If a customer comes to me with a house, 3 to 4 bedroom I am not going to fit an electric/pumped shower that is not a good job to me. You don't have to install luxury bathroom fixtures and fittings in order to provide a good shower.

Electric showers should only be installed where hot water storage is an issue, apartments, offices etc.

You can plumb a house with good flowing mixer showers and sufficient hot water storage which is efficient. All within a tight budget.

If you have recently purchased a new house or undergoing new plumbing system works, bathrooms etc and you find an electric/pumped shower is being installed, your not having a good system installed and your probably still being charged highly compared to the quality of the system installed.

Joey the lips

Stratocaster wrote: »

Your still missing the point, If a customer comes to me with a house, 3 to 4 bedroom I am not going to fit an electric/pumped shower that is not a good job to me. You don't have to install luxury bathroom fixtures and fittings in order to provide a good shower.

Electric showers should only be installed where hot water storage is an issue, apartments, offices etc.

You can plumb a house with good flowing mixer showers and sufficient hot water storage which is efficient. All within a tight budget.

If you have recently purchased a new house or undergoing new plumbing system works, bathrooms etc and you find an electric/pumped shower is being installed, your not having a good system installed and your probably still being charged highly compared to the quality of the system installed.

You cannot put a pumped electric shower in an apt and I am sorry to say that you'll not be to busy fitting showers with that perspective. I fit what the customer wants simple!

You CANNOT plumb a house to suit 4 people with sufficent hot water with a power shower or a shower that takes water from the cylinder without increasing the size of the cylinder. I am not going to waste time convincing you. The figures speak for themselves.

The best selling shower is a T90/Mira Elite!

The best selling site shower is a cheap, nastly manual shower valve!

Both are undisputed facts! Like I said our opinion does not matter!