closure (by irish authorities) of vietnam and russia to adoption

blucey

If you or anyone you know are interested or affected by this, which arises from the actions/inactions of the Dept of Children/Adoption Board/HSE , there is a an online petition at http://www.rollercoaster.ie/boards/mc.asp?ID=148406&G=39&forumdb=2

The_Conductor

Personally I support the closure of adoption from any country that is not party to the Hague Convention, period. I understand why some people are very annoyed at being precluded from adopting from what would be considered traditional countries (of late), but unless there are guarantees- such as those enshrined in the Hague Convention- we have absolutely no business in even considering adopting from there........

I would suggest researching the Hague Convention- even a brief overview such as here, would be helpful- before randomly signing a petition- in the ignorance of why these countries have been removed from the approved list of countries.......

Ps- Vietnam is in the process of regularising its adoption procedures at present- it is speculated that it may sign the treaty by 2012 (a target it has set itself).

blucey

smccarrick wrote: »

Personally I support the closure of adoption from any country that is not party to the Hague Convention, period. I understand why some people are very annoyed at being precluded from adopting from what would be considered traditional countries (of late), but unless there are guarantees- such as those enshrined in the Hague Convention- we have absolutely no business in even considering adopting from there........

I would suggest researching the Hague Convention- even a brief overview such as here, would be helpful- before randomly signing a petition- in the ignorance of why these countries have been removed from the approved list of countries.......

Ps- Vietnam is in the process of regularising its adoption procedures at present- it is speculated that it may sign the treaty by 2012 (a target it has set itself).

Oh really? And you say this why? Tell me, does your ignorance extend to why the email is being done? And does it extend to why the HSE have done what they have done? And its NOT that these have "been removed" : its that the IRISH state has comprehensivly messed up . So, take your ignorance of the reality of the situation (which, in mercy to your foolishness here I copy below) and remedy it

Do you have the faintest foggiest tiniest hint of a clue of a glimmer of what prospective parents go through here in terms of time and intrusiveness? I suspect that either you dont or worse you are one of the "anti ICA" social workers that make pap's life hellish.

Love - dont go quotign the HC to adoptive parents....really, dont. Really....:mad:

As for your patronising "I understand why some people are very annoyed at being precluded from adopting from what would be considered traditional countries " , well...I really doubt that you have a clue. Its not annoyance - its grief and anger and a sense of monsterous unfairness. Traditional countries make the kids sound like cookies. They arent, and your attitude to them is "well, hang about till 2012 and maybe you may be ok to come in here". Ffs . Tell me, what do you suggest that the kids there do till then? Stop developing?
Your hague obsession is all the more illogical given that WE are not signatories and its entirely possible that Vietnam may become signatories before us. Are our adoption laws somehow less good? Are they....


Here is the email, as I doubt you bothered to read it before jerking your knee to this response. Read, and try to learn

Dear Member

Over the last 5 years close on 75% of all intercountry adoptions into Ireland have come from Russia, Vietnam and China. At present there are close to 1000 families seeking to adopt from Russia and Vietnam.

The interim bilateral agreement with Vietnam expired on 1 May and no new agreement has yet been put in place.
Russia has also in large part closed, due to problems in implementing a procedure agreed between the HSE and the Russian authorities.
This latter procedure has operated for the last four years but it now seems that it is no longer being carried out effectively.

I am sure that you will appreciate and empathise with the enormous
level of hurt, anger and grief which the these issues have caused to
the parents and families affected. More important is that this means that
a thousand children will at best spend longer in institutions and may be
condemned to a lifetime in institutional care. No matter how good it may
be, institutional care is not a substitute for a loving family life.

I would like you to raise a number of issues with Mr Barry Andrews, the
relevant minister. I leave it to your judgement as to whether to do this by
formal question or by letter or otherwise.

Russia

How many post placement reports (by region) are outstanding, for how
long are they outstanding, and what is being done to ensure that these
are followed up by the HSE?

What is the nature and legal status of the agreement between HSE and
the Russian Embassy and the Adoption Board as per the letters of
commitment required for adoption from Russia?

When was the Minister’s office made aware that there was a problem
with Russian authorities in regard to these post placement reports and
by whom?

Can a copy of the agreement be provided to parents to ensure that all
parties are fully aware of their rights and duties under this agreement?

What is the status of discussions regarding a bilateral agreement
between Ireland and Russia?

Is the minister aware that PACT is not blacklisted, does he know how it
is that they are able to adhere to a process which the HSE fails to, have
HSE been in contact with PACT regarding best practice in post
placement reportage and if not when will they do so?

Vietnam

Why has the minister himself (or his predecessor) not travelled to
Vietnam to demonstrate the commitment of the government at the
highest level to the renewal of the bilateral agreement with Vietnam?

While being aware of the statutory independence of the Adoption
Board, does the minister have any knowledge as to why the Adoption
Board has not extended some compassion to parents facing a second
declaration renewal, and allowed them to roll over the declaration as
per the first extension? Would he personally be in favour of this
expedited second renewal process? Would he personally be in favour
of an initial declaration being made for two years as opposed to one
year as at present?

What does the minister suggest parents who have papers with
Vietnam but who cannot now proceed do, given the complexity of the
process for changing countries that the HSE have in place? To what
countries does the minister suggest they go, given the closure of
Russia?

When did negotiations start with Vietnam regarding renewal of the
agreement? What is the timeline of this negotiator process

Overall

Does the minister favour intercountry adoption? Does he consider that
there is a bias against institutional adoption within the system?

Would the minister welcome the emergence of alternative routes to
assessment other than via the HSE or PACT?

Can I also ask that you consider putting down a parliamentary party
motion to the effect that your party or grouping supports the concept of
Intern country adoption, deplores the recent closures of vietnam and
russia, calls on the Minister for Children, the HSE and the Adoption
Board to take immediate steps to rectify the situation and ensure the
rapid reopening of these countries, and condemms the delays imposed
on prospective parents who seek to provide a loving home for children.

The_Conductor

Totally aside from any factors being discussed- personal abuse of any nature on any forum I moderate gets an automatic ban.

I responded in a reasoned manner to your PM blucey, and was prepared to allow your petition stand etc- before I came upon this tirade.

Please be warned that abuse towards other posters in any Boards forums will get you banned from that forum- never mind abusing the forum's moderator.

If you are unhappy with this decision- please take it to feedback.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

The_Conductor

For the benefit of others-

Ireland was a signatory to the Hague Convention in 1993, but has as yet not wholly enacted all its protocols in Irish law. The 2009 Adoption Bill, published last year and currently before the Oireachtas, calls for intercountry adoption to be limited to co-signatories of the Convention. (It also consolidates all current adoption legislation into a single bill, and establishes the Adoption Authority of Ireland on legal standing- replacing the Adoption Board).

The purpose of the Hague Convention is to safeguard the fundamental rights of children in intercountry adoptions, both in their country of birth but also in their country of adoption. Further safeguards aim to prevent the abduction, sale and trafficing of children for adoption purposes. This extends to the automatic recognition of foreign adoptions by Irish citizens, which is very progressive.

There have been slightly over 5,100 intercountry adoptions into Ireland since 1991- just over 1,700 of which are from countries who are not signatories to the convention (including Russia and Vietnam). Aside from the Adoption Bill- and in keeping a promise Brian Lenihan made as Minister for Children in 2005- a bilateral agreement is being negotiated with Vietnam- to facilitate continued adoption from there.

The IAA - The (Irish) International Adoption Association, who represent and provide information and support to families who are involved in adopting children abroad, claims to welcome the current Adoption Bill. Link here They also provide prospective adoptive parents with a wealth of interesting information on their main website here.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

The_Conductor

As a response to a PM from another forum poster, the reason I consider automatic recognition of foreign adoptions by Irish citizens to be very progressive- is it closes the loophole highlighted by several high profile cases- such as Tristan Dowes- whereby the adopted person is not considered to be an Irish citizen until such time as the adoption is recorded on the register held by the Adoption Authority, and notified to the GRO.

Ostrom

I would be interested to hear a response from the OP on this (in the interest of healthy debate).

I cant comment because I dont know enough about the experiences of prospective ICA applicants.

SMcCarrick, can we expect a statistical report from the adoption board in its present form before consideration of the current adoption bill?

I should add, also that I agree completely with the IAA position on adoption policy-formal agreements are essential, particularly so given the nature of past placement procedures. I agree with your petition OP, but only insofar as it criticises HSE inefficiency

The_Conductor

efla wrote: »

I would be interested to hear a response from the OP on this (in the interest of healthy debate).

I cant comment because I dont know enough about the experiences of prospective ICA applicants.

SMcCarrick, can we expect a statistical report from the adoption board in its present form before consideration of the current adoption bill?

I should add, also that I agree completely with the IAA position on adoption policy-formal agreements are essential, particularly so given the nature of past placement procedures. I agree with your petition OP, but only insofar as it criticises HSE inefficiency

They are due to publish an annual report (for 2008) imminently (its due before a deadline of the 1st of July). In keeping with the format of previous annual reposts- it would presumably have updated statistics covering all aspects of the adoption boards activities. Given how things are going- its entirely possible that the current adoption bill may be parked on the back burner for another bit- it could very well be Spring 2010 before its passed. Its considered low priority in the Oireachtas order of business.

The OP can respond and elaborate on this thread as they so choose.

Shane

neilled

blucey wrote: »

Love - dont go quotign the HC to adoptive parents....really, dont. Really....:mad:

As for your patronising "I understand why some people are very annoyed at being precluded from adopting from what would be considered traditional countries " , well...I really doubt that you have a clue. Its not annoyance - its grief and anger and a sense of monsterous unfairness. Traditional countries make the kids sound like cookies. They arent, and your attitude to them is "well, hang about till 2012 and maybe you may be ok to come in here". Ffs . Tell me, what do you suggest that the kids there do till then? Stop developing?
Your hague obsession is all the more illogical given that WE are not signatories and its entirely possible that Vietnam may become signatories before us. Are our adoption laws somehow less good? Are they....

As an child adopted from abroad who has now grown up, I think its important that the safeguards of the Hague convention are in place. Some of the adopted children will have more than enough identity issues growing up without the torment of reading in the papers years down the line about dodgy adoptions from country X and an ongoing investigation by the adoption board, or the entity that will replace it with the new legislation.

I've also been somewhat............. embarrassed, shocked and horrified by the attitudes of some would be adoptive parents that seem to roam the internet who seem to think that they are entitled to have a child. They are not, they are entitled to apply for a process and be assessed for suitability.

On the subject of negotiations - they should take as long as they take to complete satisfactorily. To demand a time frame suggests a target being set so that the "goods" (children) can be brought to market (parents) quickly, so that market demand (would be adoptive parents) is satisfied. I don't like thinking of children as perishable goods waiting to get to market which is what is implied by looking for a time scale.


There is a process involved that is there for a reason. I think from an adopted perspective there are potential issues that the "paps" mentioned cannot even begin to comprehend until if/when they surface years down the line and I can understand if social workers are strict and intrusive about especially about ICA because frankly its more complicated than your regular in country adoption. In effect that can happen with ICA is that you take a child and erase everything that existed about it, their name, language, nationality, bonds it may have had with foster careers and paste over it with your own religion nationality, identity etc. This bonding of a new family but a whole new identity is complicated and difficult, particularly where the adoptive parents and the child look completely different and can result in the child being constantly reminded of how "different" they are through childhood and into adulthood, sometimes by family members and other times by strangers - members of their own ethnic group who will take them as one of their own and perhaps try and communicate in a different language. I once went out with a girl from another european country (also adopted inter country) who thought she had no issues about being adopted, no interst in tracing parents, a full member of nationality/country x - yet got quite upset when people from the region she was born in tried to communicate with her what would have been her native language had she grown up in the country she was born in, or other languages from that region of the world.

I think looking back on it now, the best way i can describe it is that their attempts to communicate with her may have shattered the mould or identity that she'd tried so hard to fit in to - of being nationality x, family x, and then having built that up and possibly having to have worked in believing it herself and having worked hard to have other believe in it, had the entire thing torn down in a matter of days by people taking one glance at her and labelling her as being something completely different. Like I said, ICA is very complicated and if prospective parents are grilled its for a reason.

In effect the supposedly "anti ICA" social worker is not just having to asses your "baby rearing skills" but issues the child you aim to adopt may (but hopefully never) face 10, 15, 18 or so years down the line and your suitability to deal with those, its vitally important the parents have the ability to cope.

qnhhpa

Hi Neilled,
Thanks for sharing your honest and frank opinion which I appreciate and hopefully will always keep in mind as a "pap".
I hope not all of us come across as being more concerned with ourselves than our prospective children.
Some of us are trying our best to do the right thing for all involved but we have lots to learn and always welcome opinions such as yours.

neilled

qnhhpa wrote: »

Hi Neilled,
Thanks for sharing your honest and frank opinion which I appreciate and hopefully will always keep in mind as a "pap".
I hope not all of us come across as being more concerned with ourselves than our prospective children.
Some of us are trying our best to do the right thing for all involved but we have lots to learn and always welcome opinions such as yours.

I appreciate that most prospective parents act on what they feelthe best of intentions, and I'm well award of the heel dragging that regularly takes place in the HSE, I for one don't think they're delivering the quality of services across the board that they should - including to paps.

However because the adoptive process is so fraught with complications (the stuff i mentioned about identity earlier) and the fact its very hard to "undo" if the case doesn't work out or the parents get cold feet (ala the dowse case) its important it gets done correctly. The process should be hard. It is hard to be "fair" to all parties involved in the system.

If there are doubts about the standards in other countries then the process has to be stopped - if the adoption turns out not to be correct and the biological family seek their child back, I maintain the person who is the most vulnerable is the adopted child from being uprooted from one family to another, to one language, culture to another etc. Furthermore even if it doesn't go as far as that, the knowledge that there was something deeply suspect about how "they" the adopted child came to be with their family could be horrendously damaging for the child concerned. As I've said there can be identity issues enough without adding to them down the line.

To illustrate the point on one side of my family, out of the six siblings that have married and have children, three have ended up adopting, with 2 children adopted from the UK by one couple, 2 children from an asian country adopted by another , and another 2 children adopted from an asian country by the third couple, the most recent being under 9 months ago.

At a recent family event the elder sibling gave a speech, referencing the oldest and youngest grandchildren, noting the oldest (one of his) was getting married and welcoming especially welcoming the youngest addition to the family...... and all the other adopted children. This family member no doubt that he was doing what he thought was best and welcoming the new member however at the same time he had made a division between the two types of grandchildren.

I'm old enough, secure and mature enough to know that this was typical of the family member in question...... he never has the best with words or speeches (i'm dreading the wedding speech for the eldest grandchild) but to a young and insecure child it could have looked like they're being singled out as different than the rest of their cousins.

Good and well intentioned people will come out with clangers all the time. Some of the other notorious clangers I've heard in my time (not saying whether they were in or outside family)

relative to adopted child , "want anything from the chinkies..... oh err sorry...... keep thinking you are.........*relative goes red and struggles for words* when relative realises adopted child is from said part of the world and realises the next words they were going to say was "white/one of us" etc. Continues to struggle with what to say next. Other scenario involves deleting relative and inserting friend.


aprophical story with northern ireland scenario : old relative a is giving off about person X being as "black as yer boot" - adopted child from African background is in room. Cue awkwardness all around.

you'll be the one that has to deal with that, amongst the other regular challenges of child rearing which are difficulty enough in themselves.

I firmly believe that parenthood/family is not a right and that not everyone is capable or being suitable of carrying out such a task. Personally I don't see myself as being someone who is suitable material for this monumental task at this time, place or even in the future, however as life moves on that might change. However I cannot think of it as likely.

However I should stress that I am firmly against the child hating singleton/married nimby group who are increasingly rising to the fore and rail at benefits and facilities provided for families. Who do they think will be paying their single pensioners allowance when they're old? The children they so despise and are so against having society provide for through taxation today. I don't expect perfection, however I think raising children is a case of "attempt from the start to do it right or don't do it at all."

I hope the situation is resolved for you as fast as possible, not for the sake of a quick fix but because the underlying reasons behind the suspensions have been sorted out. I wish you well in the future and hope that if you get through the process, you are able to give the young person in question the same wonderful opportunities that I had growing up on this Island.