Johnny Sexton

danthefan

NickNolte wrote: »

I know. Anyway, I'm happy to wait and see how Sexton performs at the start of next season before I make any definite judgements on his suitability as a replacement for O'Gara. From what I've seen the last 3 weeks though, he starting to look like he's finally ready to take the mantle. He's got so much more than O'Gara in so many respects - but he's not O'Gara yet, let's face it!

ROG needs to seriously improve on his 6N performances. If he doesn't he should be dropped, and Sexton should be starting a game in the AIs regardless. We've gone on too long with only 1 FH and we have to stop being so conservative.

Having said that, I don't believe Kidney will start Sexton for Ireland any time soon. Nor Healy.

NickNolte

danthefan wrote: »

ROG needs to seriously improve on his 6N performances. If he doesn't he should be dropped, and Sexton should be starting a game in the AIs regardless. We've gone on too long with only 1 FH and we have to stop being so conservative.

Having said that, I don't believe Kidney will start Sexton for Ireland any time soon. Nor Healy.

I'm not so sure. I think Kidney is astute enough to use Sexton if O'Gara has another poor 6 Nations. I hope for O'Gara's sake though that he doesn't... we can all agree that it would be great to see O'Gara end his career on a high. He deserves it.

phog

Sexton needs to get a run during the AIs if he is ti be the replacement OH for Ireland. I'm not sure of Leinster's signings but I hope from an Irish pov that Sexton will retain the No 10 jersey for Leinster next year. If not it looks like Kidney may have to get Keatley up to scratch.

Wouldn't it be great if we had 3 chomping at the bit for the OH position by the time the 6Ns comes around

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

Having said that, I don't believe Kidney will start Sexton for Ireland any time soon. Nor Healy.

This the same Kidney we are talking about who caused blue murder on these boards for favouring Sexton to start the 'A' game over Ian Humphreys even though Sexton was playing his rugby for Marys (having being dropped by Cheika), and Ian Humphreys was coming away with wins against Harlequins, Munster and Ian Keatley over Munster?

Kidney will start both Sexton & Healy when the time is right for both team & player. He seems to have a bit of a knack with developing players. He seems to have a good idea how to even rejuvenate developed players and get them playing again at the top of their game (BOD for instance).

Whats the hurry with rushing Healy anyway - he is very young for a prop. It would be great if he was around until he is 35 - hopefully he won't be in the knackers yard by the age of 25.

danthefan

NickNolte wrote: »

I'm not so sure. I think Kidney is astute enough to use Sexton if O'Gara has another poor 6 Nations. I hope for O'Gara's sake though that he doesn't... we can all agree that it would be great to see O'Gara end his career on a high. He deserves it.

I hope ROG gets back to his best too, especially because Kidney is going to stick with him as first choice, but unfortunately I just can't see it. Time isn't on his side anymore.

phog wrote: »

Sexton needs to get a run during the AIs if he is ti be the replacement OH for Ireland. I'm not sure of Leinster's signings but I hope from an Irish pov that Sexton will retain the No 10 jersey for Leinster next year. If not it looks like Kidney may have to get Keatley up to scratch.

Wouldn't it be great if we had 3 chomping at the bit for the OH position by the time the 6Ns comes around

A big name 10 isn't on the Leinster shopping list this summer. I think Shaun Berne is coming in from Bath as a backup 10/12.

thehighground wrote: »

This the same Kidney we are talking about who caused blue murder on these boards for favouring Sexton to start the 'A' game over Ian Humphreys even though Sexton was playing his rugby for Marys (having being dropped by Cheika), and Ian Humphreys was coming away with wins against Harlequins, Munster and Ian Keatley over Munster?

Kidney will start both Sexton & Healy when the time is right for both team & player. He seems to have a bit of a knack with developing players. He seems to have a good idea how to even rejuvenate developed players and get them playing again at the top of their game (BOD for instance).

Whats the hurry with rushing Healy anyway - he is very young for a prop. It would be great if he was around until he is 35 - hopefully he won't be in the knackers yard by the age of 25.

Picking Sexton for an 'A' game is a massive step from picking him for a full international. This season anyway I can't remember Sexton not making matchday 22s. He's been involved in 18 games this season which is most of them, and then you have to factor in his ban and I think he missed a week or two through injury.

And Kidney does a lot of things well but developing youth isn't really one of his strengths imo. Look at Earls last season for example, one of the most talented young players in the country but he only got 3 or 4 games all season.

Healy is just an excellent player, why would you not get him involved in the international setup?

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

Picking Sexton for an 'A' game is a massive step from picking him for a full international. This season anyway I can't remember Sexton not making matchday 22s. He's been involved in 18 games this season which is most of them, and then you have to factor in his ban and I think he missed a week or two through injury.

Picking him over Keatley & Humphreys - who were both on form and actually getting game time for their province. Just checked Sexton's stats: 3 x 80 min. games this season for Leinster (up to his ban). Total on pitch time of 877 Mins.

And Kidney does a lot of things well but developing youth isn't really one of his strengths imo. Look at Earls last season for example, one of the most talented young players in the country but he only got 3 or 4 games all season.

Similar time to what Sexton got at his age which was about 3 subs on. Earls spent a year playing AIL to learn how to defend.

Earls put 23 games plus 1801 minutes on his Munster clock this year (that is more than double the time that Sexton had).

Looks like Kidney got it right with Earls though, wouldn't you think? Earls is now a British & Irish Lion at 21 - he hasn't really been held back.

Healy is just an excellent player, why would you not get him involved in the international setup?

He is involved in the set-up.

just to remind you of your post:

Having said that, I don't believe Kidney will start Sexton for Ireland any time soon. Nor Healy.

You were talking about starting for Ireland

Amabokke

chupacabra wrote: »

After todays superb performance, and indeed many performances in the past (U-20s, Ireland A etc.) i think its about time O'Gara started warming the bench and Sexton becomes our first choice fly-half over the AI's and possibly the six nations next year. He showed immense composure today, he bossed the game well, controlled things well, never got over excited or over bearing. This lad is top class, top. class. And its about time we handed the 10 shirt over to someone else. Well done Sexton, from a devastated munster man.

I agree. Not sure if you have seen the S14 semi-final yesterday between Bulls and Crusaders but he reminds of Morne Steyn and had a very similar game play, dictating the game.

MG

I think there is a lot of hype and euphoria over Sexton at the moment. He needs to be judged with a colder eye.

I've seen Sexton play maybe 15-20 times. In that time, I've been pretty unimpressed in all bar two games (one and a half actually) - HEC SF and final).
Now either he's gotten to grips with his game and will kick on from here or he is just going through a purple patch. With Berne apparently replacing Contepomi, I suppose Sexton will get his chance to become the provincial number one. I'm not convinced even that will happen. I could be wrong but my impression is that Chieka does not rate him and I heard a rumour that he was looking to offload him earlier in the year. Based on this, I think the jury is seriously out on Sexton. Furthermore, his temperment is very suspect. He's only got a few starts under his belt this year and he managed to annoy seriously annoy people twice with his petulant behaviour (Mafi/O'Gara incidents).

On the plus side, Kidney seems to rate him as the second or third choice out half and I'd say that Napoleon would have made him a general (Mafi suspension/Contepomi injury) as well as the two good performances.

However, a full season of first choice HEC rugby with opponents targeting him and analysing his weaknesses will tell a lot. I wouldn't be too confident that he will be able to produce the requisite standard on a consistant basis. It's natural to want him to be the messiah, but let's wait to see if this is wishful thinking or reality.

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

Picking him over Keatley & Humphreys - who were both on form and actually getting game time for their province. Just checked Sexton's stats: 3 x 80 min. games this season for Leinster (up to his ban). Total on pitch time of 877 Mins.

Similar time to what Sexton got at his age which was about 3 subs on. Earls spent a year playing AIL to learn how to defend.

Nearly 11 full games worth of gametime isn't bad at all considering the competition. Earls anyway is a more naturally talented player, and it's much easier to play a young outside back than a young OH, because a young OH has much more potential to lose you a game. Anyway the point is he was with Leinster, not Marys.

Earls put 23 games plus 1801 minutes on his Munster clock this year (that is more than double the time that Sexton had).

That is nothing to do with Declan Kidney.

Looks like Kidney got it right with Earls though, wouldn't you think? Earls is now a British & Irish Lion at 21 - he hasn't really been held back.

I can't see how not playing last season helped Earls make the Lions.

He is involved in the set-up.

just to remind you of your post:

You were talking about starting for Ireland

Semantics.

NickNolte

MG wrote: »

I think there is a lot of hype and euphoria over Sexton at the moment. He needs to be judged with a colder eye.

I agree. Although I think his last 3 performances have earned him the right to try and prove himself worthy. I'd be amazed if Cheika didn't make him first choice next season. Although it's not his decision, O'Driscoll has already publicly stated that the 10 jersey is Sexton's. Let's give him the chance and see how he fares. If he performs and improves, fair enough. If not, we'll need another option.

Micky Dolenz

NickNolte wrote: »

I agree. Although I think his last 3 performances have earned him the right to try and prove himself worthy. I'd be amazed if Cheika didn't make him first choice next season. Although it's not his decision, O'Driscoll has already publicly stated that the 10 jersey is Sexton's. Let's give him the chance and see how he fares. If he performs and improves, fair enough. If not, we'll need another option.

I agree also, but he really stood up when it counted and you could see he was loving it. It really does bode well for his future career.

Podge_irl

MG wrote: »

I think there is a lot of hype and euphoria over Sexton at the moment. He needs to be judged with a colder eye.

I've seen Sexton play maybe 15-20 times. In that time, I've been pretty unimpressed in all bar two games (one and a half actually) - HEC SF and final).

I've seen him play a similar number of times and would have only not been impressed by him in 2 or 3 games. He had a poor start to this year, but was consistently excellent last season.

Stev_o

Is he in the CC squad? Surely the idea now would to be give him as much game time in any form of green jersey considering the teams we are playing in the AI.

danthefan

Stev_o wrote: »

Is he in the CC squad? Surely the idea now would to be give him as much game time in any form of green jersey considering the teams we are playing in the AI.

Yeah he's going to the CC.

MG

Podge_irl wrote: »

I've seen him play a similar number of times and would have only not been impressed by him in 2 or 3 games. He had a poor start to this year, but was consistently excellent last season.

For some reason that reminds me of the Homer Simpson quote "I’m not easily impressed. Wow! A blue car!"

I suppose it shows that people see the game differently but I know a lot of people who who didn't rate Sexton before a month ago (remember the Ireland A game discussion). The question is whether we were wrong or whether he's going through a purple patch.

Something I meant to say in my earlier post is that the thing which annoyed me most about Sexton this year was his try against Scotland A (I think), where he celebrated his try early and knocked on the ball while doing a spectacular dive over the line (the ref didn't see it and the try was awarded).

For me that moment sums up the question - is this current run of form a "try" or a "knock on" that has so far gone unseen.

sock puppet

MG wrote: »

For some reason that reminds me of the Homer Simpson quote "I’m not easily impressed. Wow! A blue car!"

I suppose it shows that people see the game differently but I know a lot of people who who didn't rate Sexton before a month ago (remember the Ireland A game discussion). The question is whether we were wrong or whether he's going through a purple patch.

Something I meant to say in my earlier post is that the thing which annoyed me most about Sexton this year was his try against Scotland A (I think), where he celebrated his try early and knocked on the ball while doing a spectacular dive over the line (the ref didn't see it and the try was awarded).

For me that moment sums up the question - is this current run of form a "try" or a "knock on" that has so far gone unseen.

He did have a good season last year. The only criticism he got was for his awful performance in the CC. And anytime he's come on this season he's had an impact.

Podge_irl

MG wrote: »

For some reason that reminds me of the Homer Simpson quote "I’m not easily impressed. Wow! A blue car!"

I suppose it shows that people see the game differently but I know a lot of people who who didn't rate Sexton before a month ago (remember the Ireland A game discussion). The question is whether we were wrong or whether he's going through a purple patch.

Sexton was impressive in both wins over Munster last season. I don't know how anyone who saw the games could think otherwise.

I was in no way surprised with the way he came on in the semi and had it been up to me he would have started that game.

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

Nearly 11 full games worth of gametime isn't bad at all considering the competition. Earls anyway is a more naturally talented player, and it's much easier to play a young outside back than a young OH, because a young OH has much more potential to lose you a game. Anyway the point is he was with Leinster, not Marys.

It was less than he got the previous season! As for playing Earls - why wasn't Sexton playing on the wing/full back/centre if it was difficult to get game time at OH - to be able to play several positions is now the 'new black'.

Are you suggesting then, he was brought on when the game was won when you say that a 'young OH has more ...... to lose you a game.' As for being with Leinster, and not getting any game time with Mary, you mean he only played 11 games of rugby this season :eek:

That is nothing to do with Declan Kidney.

I'd say it has ... Earls benched for Heineken Cup Final in Cardiff last year. He also got his first Ireland cap last autumn from Kidney. Bearing in mind that Kidney was/is a Career Guidance Counsellor, I'd expect he would have mapped out a career path for Keith.

I can't see how not playing last season helped Earls make the Lions.

It clearly hasn't held him back. Losing games for Munster by missing tackles wasn't going to get him picked any sooner for either Ireland or the Lions. Look at the stick O'Gara gets for not being Johnny Wilkinson.

Semantics.

The devil is in the detail. So you now agree that 20/30 minutes coming off the bench is probably a good way to introduce both Sexton & Healy to the international scene and maybe starting them against some second tier nations would help their progression.

Kidney might surprise you yet though (Tomas O'Leary made his debut against the ABs and did really well in a pivotel position). Kidney seems to know what he is doing and when to do it, wouldn't you agree?

NickNolte

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I agree also, but he really stood up when it counted and you could see he was loving it. It really does bode well for his future career.

Definitely. What I'm saying is that he's now earned the chance to prove himself. He's still a work in progress so let's see how he gets on. Cheika definitely needs to give him as much game time as possible. We've won the Heineken Cup so the monkey is off our back. It's time to award Sexton the experience of a whole season. It could be good for Ireland as well as Leinster.

danthefan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sexton was impressive in both wins over Munster last season. I don't know how anyone who saw the games could think otherwise.

I was in no way surprised with the way he came on in the semi and had it been up to me he would have started that game.

There was a poll on Leinsterfans before the SF, the vast majority wanted him to start the game.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

As for playing Earls - why wasn't Sexton playing on the wing/full back/centre if it was difficult to get game time at OH - to be able to play several positions is now the 'new black'.

Please tell me you're not actually serious...

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

Please tell me you're not actually serious...

Sorry to break it to you, but that seems to be the thinking nowadays from the top coaches. Think Luke McAlister, Felipe Contepomi, Hernández ... to start with.

Edit: Paul Warwick gets his game at FB for Munster when O'Gara is playing 10. Works really well.

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

It was less than he got the previous season! As for playing Earls - why wasn't Sexton playing on the wing/full back/centre if it was difficult to get game time at OH - to be able to play several positions is now the 'new black'.

Are you suggesting then, he was brought on when the game was won when you say that a 'young OH has more ...... to lose you a game.' As for being with Leinster, and not getting any game time with Mary, you mean he only played 11 games of rugby this season :eek:



I'd say it has ... Earls benched for Heineken Cup Final in Cardiff last year. He also got his first Ireland cap last autumn from Kidney. Bearing in mind that Kidney was/is a Career Guidance Counsellor, I'd expect he would have mapped out a career path for Keith.



It clearly hasn't held him back. Losing games for Munster by missing tackles wasn't going to get him picked any sooner for either Ireland or the Lions. Look at the stick O'Gara gets for not being Johnny Wilkinson.



The devil is in the detail. So you now agree that 20/30 minutes coming off the bench is probably a good way to introduce both Sexton & Healy to the international scene and maybe starting them against some second tier nations would help their progression.

Kidney might surprise you yet though (Tomas O'Leary made his debut against the ABs and did really well in a pivotel position). Kidney seems to know what he is doing and when to do it, wouldn't you agree?

Sorry but I'm not going to address any of that, you seem to read whatever you want to read in peoples posts and I'm not getting bogged down for pages and pages.

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

Sorry but I'm not going to address any of that, you seem to read whatever you want to read in peoples posts and I'm not getting bogged down for pages and pages.

If you don't want to get bogged down in pages and pages of posts, don't throw out some completely unfounded comments and when anyone questions you on them you disappear off in high dudgeon.

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

If you don't want to get bogged down in pages and pages of posts, don't throw out some completely unfounded comments and when anyone questions you on them you disappear off in high dudgeon.

Nothing I posted is unfounded. I hope you had an enjoyable weekend.

thecoolfreak

thehighground wrote: »

Sorry to break it to you, but that seems to be the thinking nowadays from the top coaches. Think Luke McAlister, Felipe Contepomi, Hernández ... to start with.

Edit: Paul Warwick gets his game at FB for Munster when O'Gara is playing 10. Works really well.

Every player you mention above started out playing at centre, not out half. Sexton is an out and out fly half. He isn't going to play atany other position, just like Wilkinson, O'Gara, Jones, etc.

thehighground

thecoolfreak wrote: »

Every player you mention above started out playing at centre, not out half. Sexton is an out and out fly half. He isn't going to play atany other position, just like Wilkinson, O'Gara, Jones, etc.

What about Warwick ... and that maybe with regard to Sexton only playing at OH. Cipriani plays at FB as well. Didn't Paddy Wallace start off as an OH? What is the big problem with being able to play two positions?

What about the French - they seem to have a lot of players who can play (generally) the centre and the OH position.

Wilkinson also plays as a centre, as I think does Jones. O'Gara is probably the only one who doesn't play any other position knocking around at the moment.

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

Nothing I posted is unfounded. I hope you had an enjoyable weekend.

Indeed ... well unsubstantiated then.

I had a good weekend, thanks for asking ... really enjoyed being able to watch a Final with my eyes open. Its just great that we have all the important rugby silverwear in Ireland for a year.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

What about Warwick ... and that maybe with regard to Sexton only playing at OH. Cipriani plays at FB as well. Didn't Paddy Wallace start off as an OH? What is the big problem with being able to play two positions?

What about the French - they seem to have a lot of players who can play (generally) the centre and the OH position.

Wilkinson also plays as a centre, as I think does Jones. O'Gara is probably the only one who doesn't play any other position knocking around at the moment.

Out-halves tend to be either 10/12s or 10/15s if they can play multiple positions.

Both of those positions are full at Leinster, they weren't at Munster, hence Warwick taking the 15 berth. Him making such a success of it was a happy bonus almost.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Out-halves tend to be either 10/12s or 10/15s if they can play multiple positions.

Both of those positions are full at Leinster, they weren't at Munster, hence Warwick taking the 15 berth. Him making such a success of it was a happy bonus almost.

I think Cipriani played FB for England to ease him in as an international.

Explain to Podge & thecoolfreak that it is not an unusual idea for players to play several positions.

Actually when you think about it, Leinster are unusual is that most players just stick to one position (i.e., Heaslip, Jennings, etc) unlike Munster back row who all play all positions (Leamy played as a centre this year) and you don't know where half of them are going to start (except the tight 5*, Stringer & ROG).

MOD plays backrow as well.