Arsenal v Man Utd 2nd leg (first leg 1-0 utd)

lordgoat

kinaldo wrote: »

A professional foul, very sporting that.

No it wasn't. It was a necessary evil. Given that choice in a match i'd have done the exact same thing.

Do you know how important it was to not lose that game?

kinaldo

lordgoat wrote: »

No it wasn't. It was a necessary evil. Given that choice in a match i'd have done the exact same thing.

Do you know how important it was to not lose that game?

I believe they had to win that game to realistically stay in the title race, which they failed to do so, and the tackle coming in the last minute only served to deny Newcastle a chance of victory at Old Trafford.

SlickRic

lordgoat wrote: »

No it wasn't. It was a necessary evil. Given that choice in a match i'd have done the exact same thing.

Do you know how important it was to not lose that game?

i get you.

but even if it was so so important, still...

a standing ovation?

it doesn't make for good viewing to be honest. if it was liverpool and kuyt did it, i'd go 'fair enough it had to be done', but it wouldn't endear him to me to the extent that i'd stand and roar my approval. i'd hope i wouldn't.

it's a comment on the general fan's mentality, not on utd fans by the way, in case you're thinking i might be on my way down that road

Nalz

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Hang on there a second, you have already said that he caught him but it was after the ball and so said that it was not a penalty. I did ask for you to show me where in the laws of the game it says that you can foul a man after the ball was gone but you failed to come back to me on that so I am assuming you drew a blank. As he DEFINITELY caught the player it was a pen, the sending off is a different matter, I am not sure if anybody else could have influenced play from the angles I have seen it but if not and the ref thinks that Fabregas could still have gotten to the ball then it is a clear goalscoring opportunity then it was a red but I agree that it was not a decision the ref should have taken without consulting his assistant.

Come on lets be fair, alot of tackles cannot be made by winning the ball then immediately pulling out of the challenge in order to not touch the player after the ball was won. Some may argue that he could have done so. But thats ridiculous. Alot of tackles require a certain amount of physicality after the ball is played. No intent to bring the player down, impeed him or block him from getting the ball once the ball is played.

Its nearly impossible to tackle someone from and not get a bit of a player during or a split second after the ball was touched. He didnt follow through, kick the player intentionally or anything of the sorts.

I'm wondering why I bothered to reply now, but I feel sorry for him. He didnt deserve that red card, imo it wasnt a foul and he didnt bring him down unfairly. Please be fair

lordgoat

kinaldo wrote: »

I believe they had to win that game to realistically stay in the title race, which they failed to do so, and the tackle coming in the last minute only served to deny Newcastle a chance of victory at Old Trafford.

A Newcastle win would have ended the league. The tackle was timed perfectly.

Nalz

SlickRic wrote: »

yes i feel sorry for him.

but if it gets rescinded it makes a farce of the rules. it's not like it was an unbelievably horrendous decision. the ref got it wrong, but c'mon. it's not life and death we're talking here.

you'd swear he was a martyr who deserves to be resurrected from the dead.

sh*t happens.

not a great post there, imo

lordgoat

SlickRic wrote: »

i get you.

but even if it was so so important, still...

a standing ovation?

it doesn't make for good viewing to be honest. if it was liverpool and kuyt did it, i'd go 'fair enough it had to be done', but it wouldn't endear him to me to the extent that i'd stand and roar my approval. i'd hope i wouldn't.

it's a comment on the general fan's mentality, not on utd fans by the way, in case you're thinking i might be on my way down that road

I get what you're saying but putting the team ahead of your will always endear you to the fans. I think that's all it was.

And back on topic, i think from where the ref was he saw a foul, but i do think he should have held off a moment before going straight for his card.

Liam O

Dont know if they've been posted yet but heres the goals
Park: http://en.soccerclips.net/videos/arsenal-0-1-manchester-utd-park
Ronaldo 1: http://en.soccerclips.net/videos/arsenal-0-2-manchester-utd-ronaldo
Ronaldo 2: http://en.soccerclips.net/videos/arsenal-0-3-manchester-utd-ronaldo

Valmont

Since when were flying scissor leg locks acceptable?

SlickRic

Trilla wrote: »

not a great post there, imo

fair enough, possibly a little over the top...

but people were insisting it should definitely be rescinded when it clearly won't be, and it wasn't an horrendous decision by the ref, just an unfortunate one.

sh*t happens.

the use of 'martyr' and 'sh*t happens' so close together might not look the best in hindsight, but hopefully that's not your problem with the post.

it's pretty obvious, i hope, that i don't mean there to be any link between those two things at all.

but apologies if that is the issue.

eddiehead

Valmont wrote: »

Since when were flying scissor leg locks acceptable?

After reading this thread I'm under the impression that a Tombstone Pile-Driver would be acceptable as long as you win the ball FIRST!

Liam O

eddiehead wrote: »

After reading this thread I'm under the impression that a Tombstone Pile-Driver would be acceptable as long as you win the ball FIRST!

Oh come on! Fletcher got the ball and the player afterwards. What was he meant to do, fly away? It's not like he punched him in the face. He wasn't trying to take Fabregas down, his leg was in the way because he got the touch on the ball and Fabregas' momentum carried him into it. It was unlike the Spurs one because Gomez took Carrick down after he had changed direction and it could've been avoided

Jazzy

good stuff utd. gonna take some stopping ya in the final

Nalz

Valmont wrote: »

Since when were flying scissor leg locks acceptable?

please tell me your not talking about Fletchers tackle on Fabregas?

Xavi6

Haven't read the whole thread or seen the game but that Solksjaer tackle was brilliant and I'd have done exactly the same. Hero tbh.

Guy:Incognito

Xavi6 wrote: »

Haven't read the whole thread or seen the game but that Solksjaer tackle was brilliant and I'd have done exactly the same. Hero tbh.

If it was Barton he'd be called a scumbag.,

kinaldo

Had it been Stephen Ireland in a City shirt baring down on goal I'm sure our Xavi wouldn't be calling him a hero.

Smegball

For christ sakes, it showed his commitment to the team and his unselfishness, leave out the if it was [insert player from your team] baring down on goal you wouldn't be happy, well obviously fcking not.

But I can GUARANTEE you now, if that was a player from your own team which done that you would be praising it.

Stop the bitterness please and wise the fook up.

Smegball

kinaldo wrote: »

Had it been Stephen Ireland in a City shirt baring down on goal I'm sure our Xavi wouldn't be calling him a hero.

Kinaldo, heres a scenario for you...

Last day of the season, its the 88th minute, Newcastle are 1 goal up and its injury time, you are on the verge of staying up, Agbonlahor is one on one, if he scores Newcastle go down, would you be so vigilant of say Taylor scything down Agbonlahor, getting the red card and saving your team from conceding, I don't think so.

Please stop your obvious anti Man Utd bias cloud your judgement here:)

thegen

Missed the whole thing, caught the Fletch tacle on whatever station was showing it later on. Mistake, please revue ref. hate to see him miss final over bad decision.

LuckyLloyd

Smegball wrote: »

For christ sakes, it showed his commitment to the team and his unselfishness, leave out the if it was [insert player from your team] baring down on goal you wouldn't be happy, well obviously fcking not.

But I can GUARANTEE you now, if that was a player from your own team which done that you would be praising it.

Stop the bitterness please and wise the fook up.

Nope, not buying what you're selling here.

It is an incident like that, and the type of discussion around it that we are seeing in this thread, that encapsulates the stupidity, irrationality and hypocritical double standards of the typical football fan.

It simply isn't logical to say player X who does that is:

- a hero when he wears my team's jersey;
- a **** / cheat / wanker / tosser / cretin bringing the game into disrepute and should be banned for 6 games at least when he's taking down player Y who wears my team's jersey;

So, you may reserve the right to say "well, most people think like that - it's just the way things are". But I'm reserving my right to note that most people (and the vast majority of football fans) are idiots.

Smegball

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Nope, not buying what you're selling here.

It is an incident like that, and the type of discussion around it that we are seeing in this thread, that encapsulates the stupidity, irrationality and hypocritical double standards of the typical football fan.

It simply isn't logical to say player X who does that is:

- a hero when he wears my team's jersey;
- a **** / cheat / wanker / tosser / cretin bringing the game into disrepute and should be banned for 6 games at least when he's taking down player Y who wears my team's jersey;

So, you may reserve the right to say "well, most people think like that - it's just the way things are". But I'm reserving my right to note that most people (and the vast majority of football fans) are idiots.

Right then so, I will take my question to Kinaldo and change it slightly.

Last day of the season, its the 88th minute, Liverpool are 1 goal up and its injury time, you are on the verge of winning your first premier league title,Darren Bent is one on one, if he scores Liverpool drop two points and finish second in the league, would you be so vigilant of say Carragher scything down Bent, getting the red card and saving your team from conceding, I don't think so.

Fenix

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So, you may reserve the right to say "well, most people think like that - it's just the way things are". But I'm reserving my right to note that most people (and the vast majority of football fans) are idiots.

Lets not be harsh now... There is quite a lot of intelligent football discussion on this board, a hell of a lot more so than a few other boards I frequent...

Feel sorry for Fletch, he would have been assured of a place in the startin 11 in Rome i feel. He works like hell in these matches and really does somthing to justify him being there at all in my opinion. It's was a bad call from the ref but maybe he didnt have to make a split second decison or have the option of slow motion replays from 19 million different angles.

For a professional footballer, not much can top playing a part in the Champions League final, and seriously, who can't feel sorry for Darren at this point in time...

Loomis

Talk of scissor tackles etc is absolutely pathetic. It was a tackle from the side, not from behind, he won the ball and naturally enough he made contact with the player after willing the ball.
It happens every weekend and nothing is said because it's a ball-winning tackle. If it happened outside the box none of you would care.

OpenYourEyes

eddiehead wrote: »

They were looking for Arsenal fans

was waiting for that!;)

LuckyLloyd

Smegball wrote: »

Right then so, I will take my question to Kinaldo and change it slightly.

Last day of the season, its the 88th minute, Liverpool are 1 goal up and its injury time, you are on the verge of winning your first premier league title,Darren Bent is one on one, if he scores Liverpool drop two points and finish second in the league, would you be so vigilant of say Carragher scything down Bent, getting the red card and saving your team from conceding, I don't think so.

Which way I would answer this isn't the point. DUCY?

davyjose

I'm stunned people are agreeing it was a Red. It's actually just ridiculous anti-united bias at this stage.
Was Fletch supposed to just let Fabregas score? Because if not, then his only other option was to clear the ball, which he DID, brilliantly.

Football isn't a non-contact sport. Of course he's going to clash with Fabregas, but if he gets the ball then how can it be a professional foul? How? And I'm pretty sure if the Ref saw that from a different angle, he'd agree.

chalkitdown1

Scissor tackle my arse.



It's a shame he'll miss what would've been the biggest game of his career because of this.

Fenix

It was a ****ing great challange, Fabregas was about to pull the trigger, he got in front and took the ball, I was never a massive Fletcher fan but seriously its sad he'll miss the final over that. Ref's make bad decisions, nothing more to be said.

ITT-Pat

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Nope, not buying what you're selling here.

It is an incident like that, and the type of discussion around it that we are seeing in this thread, that encapsulates the stupidity, irrationality and hypocritical double standards of the typical football fan.

It simply isn't logical to say player X who does that is:

- a hero when he wears my team's jersey;
- a **** / cheat / wanker / tosser / cretin bringing the game into disrepute and should be banned for 6 games at least when he's taking down player Y who wears my team's jersey;

So, you may reserve the right to say "well, most people think like that - it's just the way things are". But I'm reserving my right to note that most people (and the vast majority of football fans) are idiots.

In fairness to Ole, I doubt he would have made the foul if it meant he would get a 6 match ban. imo, a professional is what it is and doesn't make a player a cheat as he knows that he will be punished as severely as the laws state he will/should be.



Also I don't think people realise that despite Ole's 'heroic' foul where he sacrificed himself for the team, United still lost the title that day(this could be wrong as I was a young teenager at the time, but I'm very sure its right)

Xavi6

kinaldo wrote: »

Had it been Stephen Ireland in a City shirt baring down on goal I'm sure our Xavi wouldn't be calling him a hero.

Of course not but I'd understand the player's reasons for doing it. If someone has the opportunity to win their side something by committing a foul, cynical and all as it may be, then they should take it.

Boggles

ITT-Pat wrote: »

Also I don't think people realise that despite Ole's 'heroic' foul where he sacrificed himself for the team, United still lost the title that day(this could be wrong as I was a young teenager at the time, but I'm very sure its right)

No there was still a bit of ball left to play as far as I remember, United were ahead in the league but the Arse had a couple of games in hand, came down to one point for a finish.

Hobart

Fenix wrote: »

It was a ****ing great challange, Fabregas was about to pull the trigger, he got in front and took the ball, I was never a massive Fletcher fan but seriously its sad he'll miss the final over that. Ref's make bad decisions, nothing more to be said.

It was a great tackle. It will be appealed and the red card will be rescinded, I've no doubt on that.

On the game itself, I thought Utd were f**king brilliant tbh (as much as it pains me to say), and would be worthy CL champs. They can really turn it on when they put their mind to it. Don't know who I would prefer to be in the final with them:

A nail bitten repeat of last year with Chelsea or a free flowing 7 goal thriller with Barca. Think I'll go with Barca, although I have a sneaky feeling that Chelsea will do a 1 goal win tonight.

BaZmO*

Hobart wrote: »

It was a great tackle. It will be appealed and the red card will be rescinded, I've no doubt on that.

No doubt? Are you sure about that?

Hobart

BaZmO* wrote: »

No doubt? Are you sure about that?

Yep. It will definitely be appealed, and you can clearly see he made contact with the ball. If they were taking odds, while I would not put my children's inheritance on it, I would have a hefty wodge on it. ./Edit, actually just realised that you can't appeal it:eek:. The ref should do the decent thing so, and withdraw the card (if he can) as the tackle, if it was appealable (is that a word??) would be deemed to be not worthy of a red tbh (wodge firmly back in pocket )

Boggles

Hobart wrote: »

Yep. It will definitely be appealed, and you can clearly see he made contact with the ball. If they were taking odds, while I would not put my children's inheritance on it, I would have a hefty wodge on it.

You can't appeal it though?

Hobart

Boggles wrote: »

You can't appeal it though?

See edit ^.

Boggles

Anyone know why you can't appeal in Europe?

Very silly and unfair rule.

deisedevil

Hobart wrote: »

Yep. It will definitely be appealed, and you can clearly see he made contact with the ball. If they were taking odds, while I would not put my children's inheritance on it, I would have a hefty wodge on it.

Fergie said himself last night that there is a rule preventing an appeal on the red card so the suspension will stand. Heartbreaking for Fletch, one of our best last night, worked like a demon and has done for most of the season. He deserves to be there, particularly as it clearly wasn't a penalty.

L'prof

Hobart wrote: »

Yep. It will definitely be appealed, and you can clearly see he made contact with the ball. If they were taking odds, while I would not put my children's inheritance on it, I would have a hefty wodge on it. ./Edit, actually just realised that you can't appeal it:eek:. The ref should do the decent thing so, and withdraw the card (if he can) as the tackle, if it was appealable (is that a word??) would be deemed to be not worthy of a red tbh (wodge firmly back in pocket )

It's already been discussed that the red card can't be appealed, aybe this rule will change after this season, I dunno!

It was a great tackle, but coming across a player like that in the box is asking for trouble. Even if you make the tackle, like Fletcher did last night, can you really trust the referee and his assistants to see that???

Boggles

deisedevil wrote: »

Fergie said himself last night that there is a rule preventing an appeal on the red card so the suspension will stand. Heartbreaking for Fletch, one of our best last night, worked like a demon and has done for most of the season. He deserves to be there, particularly as it clearly wasn't a penalty.

Houghton screaming, "what did he do it for, just let him score."

Ray the reason he will be missed so much in the final is that he would always try and make that tackle.

c0rk3r

As a neutral this was an awful game. Arsenal needed to score first to make a decent game out of it. In the 4th minute Arsenal then needed to score 3 goals to win. Not impossible or improbable. They could still do it. Then in the 11th minute the game was completely beyond reach. I just hope Chelsea and Barcelona put on a better show tonight.

Congrats to utd. The better team and will probably win the championship

deisedevil

jasonorr wrote: »

It was a great tackle, but coming across a player like that in the box is asking for trouble. Even if you make the tackle, like Fletcher did last night, can you really trust the referee and his assistants to see that???

Boggles answered that very well:

Boggles wrote: »

Ray the reason he will be missed so much in the final is that he would always try and make that tackle.

Some players can't help making tackles like that, he was on auto pilot, he saw someone bearing down on goal and didn't think about the CL final, he just went on instinct and made a very good tackle. How the ref couldn't see the ball change direction like that I'll never know.

L'prof

deisedevil wrote: »

Boggles answered that very well:

Some players can't help making tackles like that, he was on auto pilot, he saw someone bearing down on goal and didn't think about the CL final, he just went on instinct and made a very good tackle. How the ref couldn't see the ball change direction like that I'll never know.

The fact doesn't change, it's a risky tackle! The odds were against him once he decided to commit to a tackle within the penalty area. Yes, the ball changed direction, but the ref couldn't see whether Fletcher made contact with Fabregas first or whether it was even Fletcher that got a touch on the ball.

Boggles

jasonorr wrote: »

but the ref couldn't see whether Fletcher made contact with Fabregas first or whether it was even Fletcher that got a touch on the ball.

If the Ref is not 100% sure, he can't give the peno. Ref fúcked up, 2 quick with the decision, linesman not consulted or copped out.

ROCKMAN

Yes i'm in the its not a peno camp. But to be devil's advocate......

Like the spurs game, the position of the ref at the time of the incident was a major factor . In both case the Ref was behind and had the player between them and the ball. Now in the spurs game the so-called touch (srry red tinted glasses) was on the far side of the linesman but last night the linesman should have seen the contact (srry again these dam glasses) and been able to assist.
Last nights Ref without assistance ,from his position and only having a split second decide it easy to see why he give the peno.
Yes I am gutted for Fletcher ,but he is just the latest victim of human errors which can never be rule out completely from live sport. However as the old chestnut goes why we have to live with these human errors when the all this modern tech is available is completely beyond me.
Also the idea put forward by LuckyLloyd in another thread about a challenge flag I really like. Maybe someday modern football may catch up with the modern world.

Hobart

jasonorr wrote: »

The fact doesn't change, it's a risky tackle! The odds were against him once he decided to commit to a tackle within the penalty area. Yes, the ball changed direction, but the ref couldn't see whether Fletcher made contact with Fabregas first or whether it was even Fletcher that got a touch on the ball.

Ya see, this is the thing the really pisses me off about the so called "modern game". It's a contact sport FFS. Fletcher clearly made contact with Fabregas before he got the ball, but 99% of tackles involve contact between two or more players, it's part of the game. While the odds might have been against him (I've really no idea what that means tbh) he made a fantastic and (imo) very fair tackle in the box, something that I would imagine is incredibly technically hard to do from that position, and yet he was punished for it. If players were to take the attitude like you have outlined above, in matches (and some do), we would have very very boring games and it would suck whatever competitive life that there is left out of "old style" tackling.

I'm no fan of Fletcher's at all, I think he is lacking in more areas than he excels in, but I take my hat off to him for the tackle he made, and I do hope that he gets mentioned in the Ref's report, and that the ref says that he made a mistake. It would a shame for him to miss out on such a big game, for what was a brilliant piece of football.

deisedevil

jasonorr wrote: »

The fact doesn't change, it's a risky tackle! The odds were against him once he decided to commit to a tackle within the penalty area. Yes, the ball changed direction, but the ref couldn't see whether Fletcher made contact with Fabregas first or whether it was even Fletcher that got a touch on the ball.

Imagine what people would be saying about him if he had just left him go clear through. He's an honest lad giving an honest effort but the ref left him down. The odds shouldn't have been against him, he won the ball cleanly, are you saying that it's gone to the stage where no one can make any tackle on the box for fear of the ref making a mess of it. They might get the odd one wrong like a keeper barely getting a fingernail to a ball like Gomez did but one that looked to be clearly a good tackle is a huge mistake by the ref and when the ball was there and Fletch knew he could boot it away then he wasn't going to hold back, at that exact moment in his mind he'd have seen nothing wrong with it.

ShooterSF

SlickRic wrote: »

fair enough, possibly a little over the top...

but people were insisting it should definitely be rescinded when it clearly won't be, and it wasn't an horrendous decision by the ref, just an unfortunate one.

sh*t happens.

the use of 'martyr' and 'sh*t happens' so close together might not look the best in hindsight, but hopefully that's not your problem with the post.

it's pretty obvious, i hope, that i don't mean there to be any link between those two things at all.

but apologies if that is the issue.

If only I could go back in time and quote that. Not to you specifically but non-United fans going mental in a past match thread.

I have the say the performance by United last night was delightful. The part that has been lacking all season is the clinical finishing. Something that improved last night. Hope we carry the form in to the derby.

Xavi6

Just saw extended highlights and that third goal was simply stunning. The first two were easily preventable though.

As for the sending off, I'm not surprised it was called that way, but my inital reaction was superb tackle from Fletcher.