Junkies at jervis Street last night

Rob_l

havana wrote: »

Sorry won't let me quote the edited post for some reason but about personal responsibility. Absolutely. Without it you'll never get clean. But that does not diminish the fact the the system does not provide the necessary pathways out of drug use or homelessness for those that have decided it is time to do something about it. If someone has reached that point it's no good if they have to wait 6 months for some sort of treatment. Who knows where they will be by then.

The system is a failure I'll accept that, but is treatement the answer?

What is the success rate of these?

havana

There are numerous forms of treatment and success can be measured in many ways. My point is that the problem with our system is treatment for the most part means just one thing - methadone. And in my experience that doesn't work for everyone. Especially with out the right supports in place. With the right support methadone or other substitute therapies can work. But for those who have tried it and it maybe didn't work then there should be other alternatives or at least the opportunity to detox from methadone in a residential setting with other methods used also. Currently there are only a handful of such places available, which is totally inadequate.

also the structures need to be in place on the completion of such a programme. Not much point in someone coming out to sleep in a doorway again or in a hostel with active users

Rob_l

havana wrote: »

also the structures need to be in place on the completion of such a programme. Not much point in someone coming out to sleep in a doorway again or in a hostel with active users

Granted thats true, but what do you suggest doing with them?

A seperate group home for people on treatment?
Which if drugs start to creep back in as they begin to abuse again then it becomes a junkie home

OR giving them social housing?
Which if they go back on drugs becomes a junkie hole

There has to be some treatment method that gives high enough success rates before you can do anything collectively with drug abusers, otherwise your just shuffle them from one location to another while the con you and themsleves into believing they want to quit.

havana

There has to be a continuum of care. (How DO you spell that?) and it has to be holistic. So when someone completes treatment there is good aftercare in place. There are options around retraining or employment. Family interventions to reintegrate people back into their family. Relapse prevention. Treatment should also offer to involve basic lifeskills which are then carried on in after care. Services working together for smooth transistion in for example supported independent living for a time. Tenancy sustainment support to help people maintain accomodation.

Yeah there is alot involved. But a few weeks in a residential centre or unsupported detox in the community is rarely adequate.

Rob_l

havana wrote: »

There has to be a continuum of care. (How DO you spell that?) and it has to be holistic. So when someone completes treatment there is good aftercare in place. There are options around retraining or employment. Family interventions to reintegrate people back into their family. Relapse prevention. Treatment should also offer to involve basic lifeskills which are then carried on in after care. Services working together for smooth transistion in for example supported independent living for a time. Tenancy sustainment support to help people maintain accomodation.

Yeah there is alot involved. But a few weeks in a residential centre or unsupported detox in the community is rarely adequate.

Now for the real deal breaker as i see it, where does support for something like this come from, at a time when the country has nothing to sepnd how can a government justify increasing the spending to cover this support for something that many people myself included will feel those we are trying to help are directly responsible for their own situation and further we have very little gaurantee of success.

Many people would feel rightly or wrongly that money would be better spent in other ways, for more deserving causes than those who whose only affliction was to a very real extent brought on by themselves.

havana

True. And funding to the few services already there is constantly being cut. But those that will complain about money being spent this way are probably also the ones who complain about 'junkies' on the streets. Granted not everyone will avail of these services either cos they don't want to or are not in that place yet but there are many who want it right now and its not availableg also for those who don't avail of programmes such as this there apd things that can be done to reduce both the affects on the individual and on society in general but they would be even less welcomed by the general public. People need to be realistic. The problem is there. People are using and to make any impact money needs to be spent.

JessieJames

Rob_l wrote: »

I doubt very much anyone could justifiably claim that when they started taking heroin they didn't know how harmful and toxic it is.

from my experiences with old classmates and friends they wouldn't start off with something as strong as heroine but rather something like smoking then hash then coke and so on, like when there bodies cant get enough of a "BUZZ" from one drug they move to a stronger one. i would say they know very well how harmful it is but the "BUZZ" seems to outweigh there own health. it was sad to see to say the least

JessieJames

Acacia wrote: »

I hate walking down Talbot Street on my own precisely because of this problem. I just don't feel safe. I also think that they sometimes target girls on their own to ask for money because they know they'll be intimidated. Has happened to me a few times, not that they were rude or violent towards me, I just felt like I couldn't say no to them because I was on my own.

once near tara street station 3 junkies were standing around & one walked towards me and asked for a shot of my mobile, it was a no win situation i could have
1) said i have no credit which they probably would have forcefully taken my mobile and seen i had credit and have taken offense to that (to put it nicely)
2) said no and try get by them (there was 3 so that was very unlikely)
3) give it to them and hope they give it back

thankfully i was lucky enough that there was a train passing by and there was loads of people around and i managed to walk by and pretend i didn't hear him, it scares me to think what might have happened if it had have been night time...

havana

havana wrote: »

True. And funding to the few services already there is constantly being cut. But those that will complain about money being spent this way are probably also the ones who complain about 'junkies' on the streets. Granted not everyone will avail of these services either cos they don't want to or are not in that place yet but there are many who want it right now and its not availableg also for those who don't avail of programmes such as this there apd things that can be done to reduce both the affects on the individual and on society in general but they would be even less welcomed by the general public. People need to be realistic. The problem is there. People are using and to make any impact money needs to be spent.

Why the hell shouldn't we complain about junkies? Last summer(And I'm sure this summer will be the same) I was working in town and even going a short distance of 1-200 feet you'd encounter so ****ing many of them. It was sickening. All wanting something.. smokes or change off you.
I remember having lunch in the smoking area of bruxelles one afternoon and the absolute amount of junkies that came begging from all the American tourists etc that were there. I mean it looked so bad and some of the women seemed pretty afraid tbh.

I was in the smoking area of another pub in Drumcondra last Friday and a junky was going around every seat in the place asking for change. He'd come up be nice while asking for money then if he didn't get some money he'd pretty much tell you to "**** off" and move on to the next person...pretty oblivious to the fact that everyone could hear what he was saying. Some fools were even giving him money after they'd seen him get aggressive with some of the other people there. Anyway he comes to me and I say I'm broke(which I pretty much was) but I made the mistake of leaving my lighter on the table. And a little argument ensued because he wanted my lighter and thought that me not giving it to him I was "bein ****innnn cheeeeeky".

I've never had good dealings with a junky. Anyone have some good stories of them making funny jokes or something while they rob you to cheer up havana?


Oh and to the guy who bought heroin from junkies...that's the most retarded shít I've ever heard.

Rob_l

JessieJames wrote: »

from my experiences with old classmates and friends they wouldn't start off with something as strong as heroine but rather something like smoking then hash then coke and so on, like when there bodies cant get enough of a "BUZZ" from one drug they move to a stronger one. i would say they know very well how harmful it is but the "BUZZ" seems to outweigh there own health. it was sad to see to say the least

The gateway drug theory isn't really a very valid one to me, if that was the case surely a country like holland would have a disporportionately higher number of heroin addicts than elsewhere and this is not the case.

I think we are now leaving the main point of the original conversation which was centred around junkies in dublin and not a broader drugs are bad mkay type argument

JessieJames

JessieJames wrote: »

once near tara street station 3 junkies were standing around & one walked towards me and asked for a shot of my mobile, it was a no win situation i could have
1) said i have no credit which they probably would have forcefully taken my mobile and seen i had credit and have taken offense to that (to put it nicely)
2) said no and try get by them (there was 3 so that was very unlikely)
3) give it to them and hope they give it back

thankfully i was lucky enough that there was a train passing by and there was loads of people around and i managed to walk by and pretend i didn't hear him, it scares me to think what might have happened if it had have been night time...

What about...

4) "Sorry, my phone got robbed by a junkie last night"

:P

Rob_l

JessieJames wrote: »

once near tara street station 3 junkies were standing around & one walked towards me and asked for a shot of my mobile, it was a no win situation i could have
1) said i have no credit which they probably would have forcefully taken my mobile and seen i had credit and have taken offense to that (to put it nicely)
2) said no and try get by them (there was 3 so that was very unlikely)
3) give it to them and hope they give it back

thankfully i was lucky enough that there was a train passing by and there was loads of people around and i managed to walk by and pretend i didn't hear him, it scares me to think what might have happened if it had have been night time...

This isn't reserved for just junkies i had a very similiar story with a group of young lads hanging down by the boardwalk and they were not clearly heroin junkies just clearly scumbags seen my shiny new iphone and shouted at me to come eerrrr and then ran towards me i was lucky the bouncers were on the door outside the bars across the road and walked over to stand by them while i finished my call while the lads all watched me

JessieJames

Rob_l wrote: »

The gateway drug theory isn't really a very valid one to me, if that was the case surely a country like holland would have a disporportionately higher number of heroin addicts than elsewhere and this is not the case.

I think we are now leaving the main point of the original conversation which was centred around junkies in dublin and not a broader drugs are bad mkay type argument

i meant from my own experiences. for the people i went to school with it seemed to be the case for most if not all of them.

JessieJames

Rob_l wrote: »

This isn't reserved for just junkies i had a very similiar story with a group of young lads hanging down by the boardwalk and they were not clearly heroin junkies just clearly scumbags seen my shiny new iphone and shouted at me to come eerrrr and then ran towards me i was lucky the bouncers were on the door outside the bars across the road and walked over to stand by them while i finished my call while the lads all watched me

i totally agree its not just junkies but at least with a group of lads u may have less of a risk of being jabbed with a potentially infected needle in the process of being robbed/battered as happened to my bro one xmass luckily it was not a dirty needle... i have to say fair play to the bouncers

havana

I never said people can't complain. I said they can't have it both ways. If people want the issue dealt with it's going to cost money. At least it will if dealt with in a way that most decent people in society could live with. I'm sure you'd be quite happy to stick them on ireland's eye so you don't have to acknowledge the issue.

and i've had more negative experiences with drug users than you've had dinners. But i've had a hell of a lot more positive ones. So thanks for your concern but i don't need any 'funny' stories to ensure i don't go thru life full of anger and laking compassion.

Nice tone by the way!

havana

So can i ask rojomadojo how would you propose dealing with the issue? And realistic suggestions please, not let them all kill each other/ ship them off to an island etc

Rob_l

havana wrote: »

So can i ask rojomadojo how would you propose dealing with the issue? And realistic suggestions please, not let them all kill each other/ ship them off to an island etc

I know you didn't ask me but here is my thoughts

I dont think treatment works I really dont believe many want to quit once they get there they lose something, and part of that something is the will to live a normal life. A very good friend of mine walked down this road a long time ago and i left him to die his junkie death it sickened me but I think once they get to this stage those that want help will seek out a way but trying to help them all is futile.

More needs to be done to look at how they got there and stop new people from joining them rather than treating those lost already lost as I see it. How a person can choose to ruin their bodies and lives and why they accept that choice has to be the way to the solution.

havana

Very few users i know don't want to live a 'normal' life. And they can never do that without treatment of some sort. maybe they don't see that there is any way out but with the right intervention their certainly is. Yes there are those who have reached a point where they have lost the will to live and for those other options are required for themselves and the benefit of society as a whole.

Some of the most productive members of society i know are former users and their brilliance would have been lost if they and everyone else took the attitude that it was too late, just let them kill themselves.

Yes people chose to take drugs but no one chooses the life it can lead to but most times by the time they realise where it is heading it can be to late to stop it at that point

catussa

Just about the Garda - judges - whoever-fault-it-is discussion.
My scooter got robbed a few weeks ago in Dominic St, I actually recovered it because I saw them carrying it away - some kids from the social housings there.
The Garda guy, that took all the details off me, was very helpful and nice and he went on about how disgraceful he finds his job - because the legal system doesn't work and there is nothing that can be done about those kids, because they are under 18. And even if they are over 18 and being taped on CCTV, they will be arrested for a few days/hours and then let out again - so it is really the system here.
Being from GErmany, I am really proud of their legal system, which punishes even under-18s - by working in public institutions - for free - to pay back the vicitim/caused damage. This has extremely reduced crime rates in Germany - and i believe that without punishment, those people will never learn.
Speaking about the missing prison places to punish those people just makes me sick - it is a shame!!!

IanCurtis

Solution:

Syringe, Bleach, Death.

Who's gonna care? Not me, not their families and not the tax-payers.

Darwin's survival of the fittest.

Easy.

arybvtcw0eolkf

IanCurtis wrote: »

Solution:

Syringe, Bleach, Death.

Who's gonna care? Not me, not their families and not the tax-payers.

Darwin's survival of the fittest.

Easy.

Four pages of warnings and infractions - solution - banned - EASY.

.

celt262

InTranceWeTrust wrote: »

First I would just like to say that it is important to remember that not all heroin addicts are bad people. Yes a lot of them are scum, but like everything there are a few decent ones there as well.

Dublin has a HUGE heroin problem, much more so than in any other European city I've been to. Heroin was by far the easiest drug to find that I ever bought (tried it a few times - not an addict), and it is a bit unnerving to know that there are people selling it openly on the street (in my experience this doesn't happen with other drugs).

What can be done about it? I'm not going to derail this thread because obviously there is not clear solution. Previous tactics have not worked, I believe legislation, regulation and rigorous education have a real chance of success. But like I said, discussing the various options will only lead to the thread being closed so perhaps best to leave it here.

You are no better than these people, they wouldnt admit to having a problem either. Did you wake up one morning and go what will i do today, sure i may aswell take some Heroin?

arybvtcw0eolkf

celt262 wrote: »

You are no better than these people, they wouldnt admit to having a problem either. Did you wake up one morning and go what will i do today, sure i may aswell take some Heroin?

Tone it down.

celt262

Sorry for given my view on his post.

arybvtcw0eolkf

celt262 wrote: »

Sorry for given my view on his post.

You'll catch more bee's with honey then with vinegar