Do people really hate Voyager and Enterprise?

dyl10

Borg, holodeck(Hirogen + WWII, Fair Haven etc.), time travel, Species 8472 episodes are all strong points for Voyager, but Voyager had a bad habit of not really having a spine of story line episodes and instead made pretty much every episode seem watchable to anyone not following the show. Similar to how the Next Generation did, just not nearly as well.

DS9 had a solid main story line, was quirky in places(in it's spin off episodes) and had a good political angle. The Klingon and Ferengi episodes were good. The Main storyline was a lot stronger than Voyager's, but anything involving the Bajoran's or Major Kira was hell.

L31mr0d

EnterNow wrote: »

Season 2.....Episode 4.....The Outrageous Okona........utter televised feces.

Worse than the recap episode "Shades of Gray", worse than the drunken Data sex episode "The Naked Now"... or the more than slightly racist "Code of Honor"?

The Outrageous Okona is pretty bad but far from the worst imo. Heck it even had a pre-superman Teri Hatcher.

I also thought the banter on the bridge was good when those little ships locked on their lasers to the enterprise. Data trying to learn how to tell a joke on the holodeck was pretty funny also.

Myrddin

L31mr0d wrote: »

Worse than the recap episode "Shades of Gray", worse than the drunken Data sex episode "The Naked Now"... or the more than slightly racist "Code of Honor"?

The Outrageous Okona is pretty bad but far from the worst imo. Heck it even had a pre-superman Teri Hatcher.

I also thought the banter on the bridge was good when those little ships locked on their lasers to the enterprise. Data trying to learn how to tell a joke on the holodeck was pretty funny also.

Yup, worse than all of them imo. The comic on the holodeck cmon like....

The Naked Now is another example of terribleness, but then again it had the classic quote - "I feel strange, but also good!"

The outrageous okona, is a really, horrendous episode, and for me (after seeing every single episode of all other treks) is without a doubt, the worst episode Ive ever endured.

Pride Fighter

EnterNow wrote: »

Yup, worse than all of them imo. The comic on the holodeck cmon like....

The Naked Now is another example of terribleness, but then again it had the classic quote - "I feel strange, but also good!"

The outrageous okona, is a really, horrendous episode, and for me (after seeing every single episode of all other treks) is without a doubt, the worst episode Ive ever endured.

What about the episode with Beverley being Scottish and some sort of metaphysical being in the episode as well. It is so bad I am describing it poorly as it is the worst Trek episode ever and I want to put it out of my mind, aaaarrrrrgggggghhh.

Myrddin

Pride Fighter wrote: »

What about the episode with Beverley being Scottish and some sort of metaphysical being in the episode as well. It is so bad I am describing it poorly as it is the worst Trek episode ever and I want to put it out of my mind, aaaarrrrrgggggghhh.

Thats the Episode "Sub Rosa", yes its bad, but seriously, watch okona - its a different league man.

thelordofcheese

Pride Fighter wrote: »

It is muck, Galatep or some rubbish is mentioned. Some Bajoran weirdo stabs the Cardi, if you think that is good, you obviously dont know quality if it smacked you.

Well, i'm pretty sure i can ignore your opinion from now on. I'd ask what you consider to be a 'good' episode, but i'm almost afraid of the answer.

Pride Fighter

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Well, i'm pretty sure i can ignore your opinion from now on. I'd ask what you consider to be a 'good' episode, but i'm almost afraid of the answer.

Any episode without Bajoran religion, the profits, Kai Winn, Vic Fontaine, Sisko as a sci-fi writer in the 50's is a good episode of DS9. Everyone I know agrees with me. DS9 episodes without those are a higher calibre Star Trek episode, problem is there are too few of them.

Myrddin

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Any episode without Bajoran religion, the profits, Kai Winn, Vic Fontaine, Sisko as a sci-fi writer in the 50's is a good episode of DS9. Everyone I know agrees with me. DS9 episodes without those are a higher calibre Star Trek episode, problem is there are too few of them.

But surely the whole point of those episodes is to gradually shape the destiny of Sisko, towards what happens in the end. Thats ultimately what DS9 is about, so I dont think your quite getting it.

There are LOADS of brilliant episodes involving the prophets, path wraiths, kai-winn/gul dukat arc etc etc. Most of them I cant remember because Im currently watching TNG (Time Squared and Q-Who last night....marks a turning point in season 2, heading towards brilliance)

I wont put in spoliers about the reason the prophets feature so much, but its all to do with sisko and his destiny.

somuj

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Any episode without Bajoran religion, the profits, Kai Winn, Vic Fontaine, Sisko as a sci-fi writer in the 50's is a good episode of DS9. Everyone I know agrees with me. DS9 episodes without those are a higher calibre Star Trek episode, problem is there are too few of them.

so your telling me that when kai-winn and gul dukat enter the fire caves and release the pa wraiths and dukat turns back into a cardasian and becomes their emmisary isn't brilliant

Mal-Adjusted

somuj wrote: »

so your telling me that when kai-winn and gul dukat enter the fire caves and release the pa wraiths and dukat turns back into a cardasian and becomes their emmisary is brilliant

Hey, cop on! at least give a spoiler warning for people who haven't seen it!:mad:

thelordofcheese

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Any episode without Bajoran religion, the prophets, Kai Winn, Vic Fontaine, Sisko as a sci-fi writer in the 50's is a good episode of DS9. Everyone I know agrees with me. DS9 episodes without those are a higher calibre Star Trek episode, problem is there are too few of them.

Ahh, i didn't realise you'd found yourself a circle of bad taste.

Duet is a goddamn fantastic episode there is no other option.

And those elements you claim are universally rubbish, aren't. They can and have been used badly, but they've also been used well.

One thing i will take issue with is lumping Kai Winn in with the 'bad'.
I think Kai Winn was a good character, petty, power hungry and a total bitch. It was a constant from her introduction in when she was still a Vedek right until trying to screw up the entire universe because she wanted to be more important than sisko. Everything she did was for her own advancement and she'd switch sides without pausing for breath if she thought things were going against her.
She was pratically space macbeth, with her vaulting ambition being the thing that got her killed in the end.

Pride Fighter

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Ahh, i didn't realise you'd found yourself a circle of bad taste.

Duet is a goddamn fantastic episode there is no other option.

And those elements you claim are universally rubbish, aren't. They can and have been used badly, but they've also been used well.

One thing i will take issue with is lumping Kai Winn in with the 'bad'.
I think Kai Winn was a good character, petty, power hungry and a total bitch. It was a constant from her introduction in when she was still a Vedek right until trying to screw up the entire universe because she wanted to be more important than sisko. Everything she did was for her own advancement and she'd switch sides without pausing for breath if she thought things were going against her.
She was pratically space macbeth, with her vaulting ambition being the thing that got her killed in the end.

I understand what you are saying.I just never liked her. As for DS9 it is tied last with Enterprise for Trek series IMO. Does not mean I hate it, I love all Trek series, just with varying degrees for each one.

chopperbyrne

Had a look through the episode lists of the first three Voyager series and there's only a handful of bad episodes.

Mostly run of the mill TNG style Trek, but there are some absolute gems in those first three series.

It's a pity it steadily went downhill from there.

norrie rugger

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Had a look through the episode lists of the first three Voyager series and there's only a handful of bad episodes.

Mostly run of the mill TNG style Trek, but there are some absolute gems in those first three series.

It's a pity it steadily went downhill from there.

DS9 lived up to its billing as a character driven Trek. One that explored long term storylines and peoples reaction to them

Voyager went back to a reset-button style of Trek. That works fine for TNG, as they were the flagship, in Federation space, but Voyager should have been battered and bruised all the way home.
BSG did this very well, to be honest so did Enterprise in season 3.

Rawr

EnterNow wrote: »

But surely the whole point of those episodes is to gradually shape the destiny of Sisko, towards what happens in the end. Thats ultimately what DS9 is about, so I dont think your quite getting it.

There are LOADS of brilliant episodes involving the prophets, path wraiths, kai-winn/gul dukat arc etc etc. Most of them I cant remember because Im currently watching TNG (Time Squared and Q-Who last night....marks a turning point in season 2, heading towards brilliance)

I wont put in spoliers about the reason the prophets feature so much, but its all to do with sisko and his destiny.

I'll agree with you there EnterNow.

However, despite those episodes relevance to the overall plot, I often found Bajoran-heavy episodes to be at the lower-quality end of things. I find the whole idea of the Bajorans to be a good concept, poorly executed.

Ensign Ro started the whole ball moving back in TNG when the Bajorans were little more than low-budget-alien-of-the-week. But it was a good introduction. Having fleshed them out into a relationship with the Cardassians, made for a good oppressor vs. oppressed plot.

When DS9 came onto our screens at first, I was a little concerned about the fact that it was mostly set around Bajor. Ensign Ro was cool and all...but on the whole, the Bajorans seemed bland and kind of pointless. The religion idea is a good one. But really, I feel that it's an idea that they took too far. Bajorans are cast into two different character types: Religious Zealot, Rebel Fighter, or both.

Thus, no matter where you are in Trek, a wrinkley nose almost always comes with the phases 'The Will of the Prophets' or 'Your pah is strong <rip off ear>' Yes, I know. They do this all the time with trek aliens. The Klingons only say 3 different things...but at least they're fun! They are either drunk, extremely violent...or both

The Bajorans are pretty much one of the few failings I can find with DS9. When the show ignored the Bajorans in favor for Starfleet and all of the stuff happening beyond the Bajor system, the show was mostly gold. (Vic Fontain, that 50s episode and anything with Ferengi can be excluded from that reference.)

chopperbyrne

It was supposed to be Liutenant Ro as the first officer of DS9 too, but Michelle Forbes didn't want the role.

Sci-fi writers obviously like her character though as she replaced Odo as Chief of Security on DS9 in the novels set after the end of the series.

Myrddin

Rawr wrote: »

I'll agree with you there EnterNow.

However, despite those episodes relevance to the overall plot, I often found Bajoran-heavy episodes to be at the lower-quality end of things. I find the whole idea of the Bajorans to be a good concept, poorly executed.

Ensign Ro started the whole ball moving back in TNG when the Bajorans were little more than low-budget-alien-of-the-week. But it was a good introduction. Having fleshed them out into a relationship with the Cardassians, made for a good oppressor vs. oppressed plot.

When DS9 came onto our screens at first, I was a little concerned about the fact that it was mostly set around Bajor. Ensign Ro was cool and all...but on the whole, the Bajorans seemed bland and kind of pointless. The religion idea is a good one. But really, I feel that it's an idea that they took too far. Bajorans are cast into two different character types: Religious Zealot, Rebel Fighter, or both.

Thus, no matter where you are in Trek, a wrinkley nose almost always comes with the phases 'The Will of the Prophets' or 'Your pah is strong <rip off ear>' Yes, I know. They do this all the time with trek aliens. The Klingons only say 3 different things...but at least they're fun! They are either drunk, extremely violent...or both

The Bajorans are pretty much one of the few failings I can find with DS9. When the show ignored the Bajorans in favor for Starfleet and all of the stuff happening beyond the Bajor system, the show was mostly gold. (Vic Fontain, that 50s episode and anything with Ferengi can be excluded from that reference.)

Fully appreciate that, and you expressed it well. I just feel that because DS9 is in the very near vicinity to Bajor, no matter what you do with the series - it would be unrealistic NOT to have a heavy Bajoran influence on the show.

Also regarding your point about the Bajoran's being either religious zealots and/or rebels, you have to remember that there was a planetary occupation of Bajor. So its quite natural that, being a religious folk anyway, the vast majority of them are going to look to their Gods through the traumatic years they went through. And of course, being of a planetary scale, the resistance movement was obviously goint to be quite large - producing quite a lot of rebels. These are mostly the only Bajorans we were shown in the show, Im sure there were many roles on the surface. Look at the Romulans, to this day we've never really gotten a glimpse into Romulan society at its most day to day level, they are mostly portayed as miltaristic oppresors.

I do accept however that DS9 is not quite like trek as we know it. Its much grittier, more real, deep exporation of characters in a non "Roddendery Universe". I loved it, I thought Sisko was an amazing character in post season 2 stuff (Mr Brooks is a remarkable actor), Chief OBrien I loved, Worf coming to the show was another masterstroke, I loved more or less everything about the show post season 2. Yes it differs from trek as we know it, but it makes damn good watching.

stateofflux

i think DS9 really picked up when worf arrived and the dominion story started, very very cool concept of an army of basically heroine addicts....couldnt stand all the religious bajoran yawnville episodes or vic fontaine holodeck "we can't think of a story" episodes...

Voyager started terribly...janeway has no sense of humour and the storys were lacking ...imo the series only picked up when the doctor got more screen time, 7 of 9 arrived and the ship went through a real hammering....so from about season 4 it is a good show....

I dont get enterprise....crap stories,crap charachters led by the gob****e from quantum leap...with zero charisma....the ship looks too modern....it should be a floating heap of junk with everything failing all the time....really really bad.....

just goes to show how good the original series was and how well the original cast worked together....the screen chemistry between shatner, bones and spock is untouchable ......

chamlis

stateofflux wrote: »

Voyager started terribly...janeway has no sense of humour and the storys were lacking ...imo the series only picked up when the doctor got more screen time, 7 of 9 arrived and the ship went through a real hammering....so from about season 4 it is a good show....

Voyager didn't get better when 7 of 9 arrived, it got better when Kes left....

Rawr

chamlis wrote: »

Voyager didn't get better when 7 of 9 arrived, it got better when Kes left....

+100 My feelings also.

Each Trek I've watched seemed to have some kind of tipping point which defined the series, and equally a point where it jumped the shark.

For DS9, the tipping point seemed to be 'The Jem Hadar'/'The Search' but you could go further to say that it was 'The Way of the Warrior'. For the most part, I was a casual watcher of DS9 until there. I then followed the show, as I did with TNG.

Voyager's tipping point is certainly 'Scorpion' and episodes around it. Kes was a lousy character, and her departure did seem to mature the series a good deal. Seven of Nine (her replacement) was less of a pointless character, but alas was not much of an addition either. Voyager was stronger and watchable until Season 7, where show had certainly jumped the shark. From there, it seemed to be stalling for time until their traditional Season 7 finale.

Enterprise took a very long time to get it's feet. That was kind of the point of the show, but the way they did it made for uncomortable viewing. It was essentialy Voyager Lite, with all of the story and situation conventions of the previous series. The ship appeared odd, the shuttles looked stupid, the damned ship had shields (polorised hull), and even a working transporter. The whole pre-TOS concept, although good in itself, just didn't work here. For the first time in years, I had stopped watching a Trek show outright, and would only occasionally return to see if things had improved...usually they hadn't. The only potential tipping point in Enterprise I can think of...is the Xindi arc. Once the damned Sulliban/Temporal Cold War arc was ditched, the show improved. However, I feel that the show jumped the shark long before this...and thus it never really caught on with me, or a lot of other people it seems.

Mal-Adjusted

Rawr wrote: »

+100 My feelings also.

Each Trek I've watched seemed to have some kind of tipping point which defined the series, and equally a point where it jumped the shark.

For DS9, the tipping point seemed to be 'The Jem Hadar'/'The Search' but you could go further to say that it was 'The Way of the Warrior'. For the most part, I was a casual watcher of DS9 until there. I then followed the show, as I did with TNG.

Voyager's tipping point is certainly 'Scorpion' and episodes around it. Kes was a lousy character, and her departure did seem to mature the series a good deal. Seven of Nine (her replacement) was less of a pointless character, but alas was not much of an addition either. Voyager was stronger and watchable until Season 7, where show had certainly jumped the shark. From there, it seemed to be stalling for time until their traditional Season 7 finale.

Enterprise took a very long time to get it's feet. That was kind of the point of the show, but the way they did it made for uncomortable viewing. It was essentialy Voyager Lite, with all of the story and situation conventions of the previous series. The ship appeared odd, the shuttles looked stupid, the damned ship had shields (polorised hull), and even a working transporter. The whole pre-TOS concept, although good in itself, just didn't work here. For the first time in years, I had stopped watching a Trek show outright, and would only occasionally return to see if things had improved...usually they hadn't. The only potential tipping point in Enterprise I can think of...is the Xindi arc. Once the damned Sulliban/Temporal Cold War arc was ditched, the show improved. However, I feel that the show jumped the shark long before this...and thus it never really caught on with me, or a lot of other people it seems.

when do you think these shows "jumed the shark"?
jumping the shark, if i remember correctly, is when a show does something stupid, totally unbelievable (tough for a sci-fi show) or something these characters wouldn't do based on what we know of them, all in a desparate grab for ratings... this usually triggers a slow decline for the series.

norrie rugger

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

when do you think these shows "jumed the shark"?
jumping the shark, if i remember correctly, is when a show does something stupid, totally unbelievable (tough for a sci-fi show) or something these characters wouldn't do based on what we know of them, all in a desparate grab for ratings... this usually triggers a slow decline for the series.

For me, introducing a tame Borg in a catsuit did it.
or having no real tension between Maquis and Federation

Rawr

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

when do you think these shows "jumed the shark"?
jumping the shark, if i remember correctly, is when a show does something stupid, totally unbelievable (tough for a sci-fi show) or something these characters wouldn't do based on what we know of them, all in a desparate grab for ratings... this usually triggers a slow decline for the series.

I'm probably not using the phrase 'jumping the shark' correctly, but I like it since it's a very short way of saying that a show had passed it's peak and was only going to decline.

Voyager had seemed to have 'jumped the shark', perhaps as per it's proper use, by Season 7's 'Drive', where the crew dropped everything to host...a space Grand Prix. However it's decline was well underway by then, with the Borg by then a joke, and with later episodes of the season including that damned Klingon episode and the lack-luster finale.

Enterprise seemed to had jumped the shark by Season 2's 'The Expanse'.
It seemed to me that this was a case of a massive re-set button being hit. Enterprise was fitted with Photon Torpedoes instead of those dinky missles they had. T'pol ignors the Vulcans altogether and joins starfleet to remain with the crew (and yet never puts on a proper uniform:D). Trip asks Archer to forget about following a yet to exist Prime Directive, and the ship becomes lost without support from home.
Instead of Voyager Lite, it becomes....Voyager. As odd as it sounds, Voyager was better at being Voyager than Enterprise.

I'm certain that the show did actually improve from here, and the gimpses of it that I bothered to watch were pretty good. But there in itself is the issue, at least for me. By Season 3 of Enterprise, I could not be bothered to watch the show weekly. For all of Voyager's failings, I would still find myself watching the show most weeks until about Season 6 / 7.

I am wondering if others felt as I did by this stage of the series original broadcast. It was canned after Season 4, but was nearly gone with Season 3 anyway (and possibly even Season 2...I can't remember where I heard that).

Mal-Adjusted

norrie rugger wrote: »

For me, introducing a tame Borg in a catsuit did it.
or having no real tension between Maquis and Federation

I think you're a little bit confused on what "jumping the shark" actually means.

there's no denying that seven was a good character, but did they have to make it that obvious? and the starfleet/maquis thing was a problem from the very third episode...

norrie rugger

i am saying that having a tame borg was unbelievable and too much of a reach.

I do not think that she was a good character. Also the fact that she was targeted at 13 year olds.
She was a pointless addition, used to garner a ratings boost.
Also, her addition began the sisification of the borg, into a toothless enemy of the week, just so they had an excuse to bring the borg into the show, with out being a serious threat to voyager

Mal-Adjusted

yet the quality of the show drastically improved from that point on, at least for the next three and a bit years.

norrie rugger

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

yet the quality of the show drastically improved from that point on, at least for the next three and a bit years.

I do not think that it did improve.
I believe it to be the weakest of the Trek's.

They decided to "jazz" it up - to hide the weakness of the show.

There was massive potential, especially after contact was made with the Federation and the entrance to Borg space but it was cast aside, for more "Punch Through" mentality

Rawr

norrie rugger wrote: »

I do not think that it did improve.
I believe it to be the weakest of the Trek's.

They decided to "jazz" it up - to hide the weakness of the show.

There was massive potential, especially after contact was made with the Federation and the entrance to Borg space but it was cast aside, for more "Punch Through" mentality

I going to agree with both yourself Norrie, and Mal-adjusted here, in some respects.

From Season 3 onwards, Voyager did become a good deal more watchable than the first 2 seasons. Some of the show's best episodes do happen after Scorpion.

However, at the very same time I feel that Seven of Nine's inclusion took away from the show and indeed any episode where she got more than a couple of token lines. Jeri Ryan seemed to have been a good actress, but unfortunately for her, the direction and writing of her character resulted in a 2D Vulcan clone who's catch-phase (and entire script) became: "When I was in the collective...<insert anecdote here>"

As a result of her and the Doctor's 'training' of her, I feel that the cheese-factor of Voyager did steadily climb, despite the better quality episodes.

Stark

I really enjoyed Voyager the first time round. But watching it again, it's lost most of its appeal, especially when you're not left wondering what the final fate of the crew will be. TNG on the other hand is still as fresh as it ever was on repeat viewing.

Enterprise: dog **** with the exception of season 4.

norrie rugger

watch season 3 again. Much better when you know where they were going with it