Why aren't all cars automatic?

Keith186

shamblertine wrote: »

What reason is there for still making manual gearbox cars? Can't think of any advantage myself to having a manual gearbox.

The simplest answer is that there's still a market for manual gearboxes but this will decline sharply in the next 15 years I'd say.

Automatics are already gaining a good bit more of a market share.

You should be able to get manuals in a decade or two but they'll probably cost more that the auto version as they would be manufacturing less of them.

I've drove both, they both have their good points I have to say but I couldn't believe how poor the automatic was going up hills, even slight slopes no matter what ratio I was in. It was a new 1.8L petrol and it was worse than my 10 yr old 1.4L petrol at going up slopes.

Matt Simis

copacetic wrote: »

No, I said that the 0-62s are done by racing drivers, without using the clutch to get the best possible time.

Yeah, I could never get my S4 even close to the 4.5sec 0-60 it was capable of. At those speeds you need a terrific manual box plus be a great driver. Or a decent auto.

copacetic wrote: »

Could be, but SMG has been around for a long time now. It's more likely that they left it in full auto and it's not a fair comparison, the SW will be looking at Yaw and Lean to work out what to do and flying through a slalom isn't much of a real life situation, after 2 or 3 swerves it'd be expecting DTC to take over, if they turned that off they should have gone into full manual mode too.

All true, tho note that SMG isnt a dual clutch box or has a torque convertor, its not comparable to DSG. Infact it has no clutches at all!

copacetic

Matt Simis wrote: »

All true, tho note that SMG isnt a dual clutch box or has a torque convertor, its not comparable to DSG. Infact it has no clutches at all!

True of course, BMW are definitely well behind the Porsche/VW/Audi group on DSG. Steptronic has caught up with Tiptronic pretty much though so I'm sure they will catch up soon. The emissions benefits are driving it.

m@cc@

It's like going to Bundoran on your summer holidays. Sure, it might be easier than flying to the South of France but in terms of enjoyment....well I know what I'd prefer.

Eoin

Thanks Mr Cantona. It's actually more like going to the south of France but manual = Ryanair.

SV

MarkN wrote: »

Iguana anyone with a bit of experience (never had to do it myself) can drive a car without a clutch as a temporary measure say if the clutch is gone in the car...

I've done it a fair few times alright, fairly easy.

Not because the clutch went though, just to experiment. Fairly good at it now :-)

galwaytt

smccarrick wrote: »

Why aren't all cars automatics

The two most obvious reasons are: 1 people buy what garages/dealers stock, and traditionally, that's manual, and 2, price. Traditionally, auto boxes cost more. Once upon a time, at least, in the US, it was the other way around.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I agree with pretty much all the arguements against auto boxes, however nobody has stated that DSG style boxes arent automatic gearboxes. They do have clutches so they are considered manual gearboxes. BMW`s SMG isnt a true sequential either but thats another issue. The large percentage of autos on the road are the old fashioned 4 speed boxes which are truely awful.

Well, I think what's on offer to the public now is a plethora of 'automatics'. If we define automatics as 'anything not needing a clutch pedal or manual shifting of the gears' then all the Torque Convertor+Brake Band/Tiptronic/DSG/SMG/CVT/PDK/Multitronic etc etc can be included. In that group, then, there are some fabulous choices - none of which are 'manual'. Sure, many have a 'manual' option, but in the main, it's a manual override of an automatic function. In that context a DSG is very much an automatic.

It's also very good.

unkel

Matt Simis wrote: »

Afaik BMW switched from 4 to 5 speed autos in the mid 90s.

AFAIK, the 5-series went 5 speed in 1990 (apart from the lower end models) and the 7-series went in 1992. My '94 E34 530i V8 was 5 speed (but not steptronic)

BMW introduced steptronic in 1996. My '96 E38 735i V8 does have steptronic

BTW steptronic = tiptronic. Tiptronic is a system developed by Porsche and licensed to many car manucturers (like BMW), who can give it a different name if they like

copacetic

unkel wrote: »

AFAIK, the 5-series went 5 speed in 1990 (apart from the lower end models) and the 7-series went in 1992. My '94 E34 530i V8 was 5 speed (but not steptronic)

BMW introduced steptronic in 1996. My '96 E38 735i V8 does have steptronic

BTW steptronic = tiptronic. Tiptronic is a system developed by Porsche and licensed to many car manucturers (like BMW), who can give it a different name if they like

woah, are you sure? My understanding was that steptronic is BMWs own in house developed system, not a rebrand. They wouldn't license it from Porsche?

unkel

copacetic wrote: »

woah, are you sure? My understanding was that steptronic is BMWs own in house developed system, not a rebrand. They wouldn't license it from Porsche?

I always thought BMW licensed it from Porsche like everyone else using it. But I could very well be wrong

Anyone any linky to clear this up? I did a 1 minute google and the results were confusing, but I did come across several references that BMW indeed owns the steptronic technology

copacetic

unkel wrote: »

I always thought BMW licensed it from Porsche like everyone else using it. But I could very well be wrong

Anyone any linky to clear this up? I did a 1 minute google and the results were confusing, but I did come across several references that BMW indeed owns the steptronic technology

yep, I was all over google too! but no firm info really..

Esel

Stoned Hippy wrote: »

In full autos you can't choose what gear you're in at all.

ORLY? Any full autos I've ever driven have a lever which can be used to select individual gears. The box won't let you downshift if the revs would be too high for the lower gear though, which can only be A Good Thing.

Berty

As an everyday car I would prefer an automatic but cannot bring myself to spend more money on something every other country gets for nearly the same price.

If I was lucky enough to have a weekend runabout it would have to be Manual.

Atomic Pineapple

The reason we still have manuals is simple, consumer choice.

I want and enjoy manual cars much more than automatics and I like to buy a manual car, the opposite is true for some people.

As long as enough people want manual and automatic cars there'll be a choice there for both.

pmg007

An automatic car is often a grand dearer to buy new..After a few years its worth way less than a manual and very often quite difficult to sell. Should an auto box give trouble its very expensive to repair and until recent years there was very few repair specialists for auto boxes. I guess a mauual box is stronger and can take more abuse also we can repair/replace them cheaply and easier. I have an auto classic merc which I love but prefer my manual for every day motoring. I had a mini auto which packed up and I converted to manual. Also a mk2 escort and a nissan micra which when converted to manual returned 100 miles more per fill of the tank than with the auto box.

Eoin

pmg007 wrote: »

An automatic car is often a grand dearer to buy new..After a few years its worth way less than a manual and very often quite difficult to sell.

Depends on the car. I'd say trying to shift a manual 530 or equivalent Merc wouldn't be easy.

Matt Simis

eoin wrote: »

Depends on the car. I'd say trying to shift a manual 530 or equivalent Merc wouldn't be easy.

Yeah, anything fancy, newish and prestige, the manual is the kiss of death. Was looking at 6 series (new model) and the manuals were the cheapest and slowest to move 2nd hand. Personally I wouldnt mind, Id rock either.

netwhizkid

I drive an automatic and absolutely love them, I tried Manual and I really cannot believe in the 21st century that people are still driving these cars which are no different to Robert Stephenson's Rocket of 1829. The majority of people of who gripe about autos have never driven one are pretty narrowminded ie. "the gays and women" comment.

Manual technology is outdated and is really only cheaper because the companies cannot be bothered making Automatic due to four things.

1)Punitive Taxation the taxation of motor vehicles in Europe is disgraceful especially when a public transport alternative does not exist.

2)Manuals are seen as a challenging drive and all they contribute to is more deaths on the roads and bad driving engrained in youth from the beginning. Anybody in Killarney this weekend would be shocked to see the mentality. "Oh look I have a car with go faster stripes and it was imported from Japan, I am better than fast & furious, Autos are for gays". The majority of Manual cars on the road are pure muck due to punitive taxation keeping prices high and specs low. People buy the mass manufactured cheap muck from Asia.

3) Manuals cost alot to repair and cluthes, bearings and flywheels are going constantly, alot of Auto boxes are sealed for life. Manuals are cheaper to manufacture meaning higher profits for the rip off Irish motor industry.

4) Irish traffic road behaviour. Alot of Irish in the country drive a tractor or similar first and never engage in something more challenging than a simple roundabout. In the United states Autos are ubiquitous due to the busy roads and need to be alert at all times, if you don't move of a redlight in nanoseconds the horn behind will go, none of these things apply here and most Irish people are terrible drivers who accept bad roads, crap cars and extremely high taxation. Autos need a minimum of 1.8l to be even there and most American cars are on average 3litre 6 cylinder delivering plenty torque to the auto box. Such cars would never sell here due to the taxation.

I dislike manuals alot as an incident a few years ago almost claimed my life due to I been forced to drive them (by parents, peers, and instructors) when I was not good and with little experience. I stalled after taking off in second gear by mistake in a Petrol piece of junk while turning off a main road and was in the path of a 30ft lorry who came around the bend doing 100kmh and I was within inches of losing my life. When I parked the car I swore to myself I would never drive a manual again or allow my future children to. I was not in control of the car and alot of my peers have not been so lucky and Manual cars have filled manys a coffin.

Matt Simis

Do perhaps think you have allowed your perception of manuals be altered by that emotionally jarring incident and perhaps you are a bit OTT on the whole thing?

Boycotting Manuals (and disallowing your kids.. :rolleyes:) is like avoiding alcohol incase you become an alcoholic. You let it control your life (the transport aspect of it anyway). Cars are tools, learn how to control them.

The_Conductor

netwhizkid wrote: »

I drive an automatic and absolutely love them, I tried Manual and I really cannot believe in the 21st century that people are still driving these cars which are no different to Robert Stephenson's Rocket of 1829. The majority of people of who gripe about autos have never driven one are pretty narrowminded ie. "the gays and women" comment.

I disagree- people who enjoy driving- as opposed to those who drive simply to get from A to B- inevitably drive manuals.

netwhizkid wrote: »

Manual technology is outdated and is really only cheaper because the companies cannot be bothered making Automatic due to four things.

Not necessarily- manual technology and the manner in which it enables people to make choices for themselves, as oppossed to having decisions arbitrarily hoisted on them by a computer- is seen as irreplaceable. All professional digital cameras- are manual. People enjoy using machinery- learning how it behaves in different circumstances, experimenting and enjoying their interactions with their tools.

netwhizkid wrote: »

1)Punitive Taxation the taxation of motor vehicles in Europe is disgraceful especially when a public transport alternative does not exist.

Motor taxation in this country is punitive- certainly- however there is no distinction between manual and automatic cars. That distinction is a manufacturer distinction, period.

netwhizkid wrote: »

2)Manuals are seen as a challenging drive and all they contribute to is more deaths on the roads and bad driving engrained in youth from the beginning. Anybody in Killarney this weekend would be shocked to see the mentality. "Oh look I have a car with go faster stripes and it was imported from Japan, I am better than fast & furious, Autos are for gays". The majority of Manual cars on the road are pure muck due to punitive taxation keeping prices high and specs low. People buy the mass manufactured cheap muck from Asia.

Its a bit much to say manual cars are to blame for boy-racers and road deaths tbh. A throwaway statement that the majority of manual cars on the road are pure muck- is ridiculous, and wholly without merit. I am not aware of who considers manuals to be a challenging drive- its easier to drive a manual car, than it is to ride a bicycle, imho.

netwhizkid wrote: »

3) Manuals cost alot to repair and cluthes, bearings and flywheels are going constantly, alot of Auto boxes are sealed for life. Manuals are cheaper to manufacture meaning higher profits for the rip off Irish motor industry.

I'm not sure what make or model of car you have in mind when you're suggesting that clutches, bearing and flywheels are going constantly. I've been driving for almost 20 years without any of these going on me. Also- it costs more to service an automatic than it does a manual (again a sweeping generalisation- but its more accurate than suggesting the upkeep of a manual is more than an automatic).

netwhizkid wrote: »

4) Irish traffic road behaviour. Alot of Irish in the country drive a tractor or similar first and never engage in something more challenging than a simple roundabout. In the United states Autos are ubiquitous due to the busy roads and need to be alert at all times, if you don't move of a redlight in nanoseconds the horn behind will go, none of these things apply here and most Irish people are terrible drivers who accept bad roads, crap cars and extremely high taxation. Autos need a minimum of 1.8l to be even there and most American cars are on average 3litre 6 cylinder delivering plenty torque to the auto box. Such cars would never sell here due to the taxation.

I was driving tractors from age 8- and do so even these days on occasion. I drive mostly in an urban setting however, also spend roughly 8-10 weeks a year motorway driving on the continent. If you think Irish drivers are impatient at traffic lights- you really don't want to drive in urban France, Spain, Portugal- or worst of all- Italy.

Regarding an automatic having to be a larger engine- thats totally without foundation. In general an automatic is less fuel efficient than a manual-however this in no manner means a larger engine is necessary. In the US manuals are also the same size as automatics- its simply not a factor in people's purchasing preferences. I've driven a 1.4 litre automatic diesel- by god it almost stalled on anything other than level ground- but the manual equivalent was identical (if anything it was more thirsty- as you were more inclined to rev the engine higher).

netwhizkid wrote: »

I dislike manuals alot as an incident a few years ago almost claimed my life due to I been forced to drive them (by parents, peers, and instructors) when I was not good and with little experience. I stalled after taking off in second gear by mistake in a Petrol piece of junk while turning off a main road and was in the path of a 30ft lorry who came around the bend doing 100kmh and I was within inches of losing my life. When I parked the car I swore to myself I would never drive a manual again or allow my future children to. I was not in control of the car and alot of my peers have not been so lucky and Manual cars have filled manys a coffin.

This is a personal preference- not an accurate analysis of the relative safety or lack thereof of a an automatic versus a manual. If you look at road traffic statistics from the US- you get precisely a reciprochal picture. The type of car does not cause accidents- the manner in which it is controlled by the driver does. You stalled a manual by taking off in the wrong gear- its unfortunate, thankfully you are here to tell the story. A personal experience of my own is being rear ended at 100km per hour on the Blanchardstown Slip of the M50 by a driver driving an automatic Mazda 6- whose attention wandered. It wrote off both vehicles, thankfully we both walked away from it. Her car wasn't at fault- her lack of attention was. I could see her coming straight into the back of me at speed in the rear view mirror as I waited, stationary, with my handbrake on, at the traffic lights. She was looking at an accident on the opposite side of the motorway- not the traffic immediately ahead of her (which was a continuous stationary queue to the top of the slip).

vibe666

SV wrote: »

There must be a clutch.

if there has to be a clutch to be a real 'manly' driver then great, a DSG gearbox has two clutches to make you twice the man.

SV wrote: »

As for the comment about manuals only being faster on paper and noone being able to reach those figures on this forum? I'll accept that challenge. ;-)

cool. can you prove that you can change gear in less than the 8 milliseconds it takes a DSG to change gear?

admittedly that's when it anticipates the next gear you need in advance. if you were to need a gear that wasn't anticipated, it *could change gear as slowly as 400ms, but you have to drive pretty erratically to do that.

add to that practically no power loss during a gear change and better fuel economy than regular auto boxes (and a lot of manual ones) and it seems like a pretty good deal.

i've driven manuals most of my life with a few autos mixed in every so often, but now i have a big comfy motor with a leather interior, power steering and an auto box and i can cruise around almost indefinitely without feeling a bit tired. i felt better after a trip to cork for a wedding in my current motor than i used to feel driving the 45 minutes to and from work in my old motor.

yeah, maybe it's the lazy way to drive, but why not? you don't need to be on the edge of your seat everywhere you drive, you should take it easy (and have a cadburys caramel).

sorry SV, wasn't picking on you specifically, just replying in general to the 'manuals are teh best' posts and you'd said the right things to quote.

copacetic

smccarrick wrote: »

I disagree- people who enjoy driving- as opposed to those who drive simply to get from A to B- inevitably drive manuals.

This may have been true 10 or 15 years ago but is not at all true now, I know plenty of people buying GTIs with DSG and M3s with SMG etc. Porsche and Ferrari are planning to make manual a special order only option at great expense on all their ranges, are all these people just trying to get from A to B with no enjoyment??

MarkN

pmg007 wrote: »

An automatic car is often a grand dearer to buy new..After a few years its worth way less than a manual and very often quite difficult to sell.

Where do they come from??

Try quite a few grand dearer.

Any car that falls into the "needs to be an automatic" is not worth less, quite the opposite.

Try shifting on a manual BMW 335i, S-Class, E-Class or BMW 630i and make that crazy statement stand up!

milltown

smccarrick wrote: »

I disagree- people who enjoy driving- as opposed to those who drive simply to get from A to B- inevitably drive manuals.

No I don't.
When I leave work after a 12 hour night shift and have to spend an hour getting into town for an appointment, I don't mind a bit. I put my "gaybox" in drive and spend my concentration on what's going on around me.
On other days, when the mood takes me and the conditions are right, I nudge the lever to the left, into sport, and drive for the fun of it, using one of the two pedals to get the right speed, and the big roundy thing to pick the right line through a bend. To be honest, I rarely even use the steptronic.

I think most of the nay-sayers drive an auto for a few hours or a few days and make their lifelong decision based on that. I've had mine for over two years and know how it behaves, what sort of throttle angles or engine speeds it will change gear at. I'm not claiming to be a super driver but I know how to drive my car. The manual fanboys haven't learned properly how to drive an auto and are maybe too dependent on engine braking, mistaking it for "control".

smccarrick wrote: »

Motor taxation in this country is punitive- certainly- however there is no distinction between manual and automatic cars. That distinction is a manufacturer distinction, period.

Are you unaware of the VRT system? The old system charged 30% on top of the cost of the auto option. The new system, in many cases, pushes the less economical autos into higher bands for both VRT and annual road tax.

Zube

milltown wrote: »

I think most of the nay-sayers drive an auto for a few hours or a few days and make their lifelong decision based on that.

I think you are too kind: most of the naysayers have never driven an auto at all.

Of course most people drive smaller cars which don't really suit the old slushmatic boxes, and DSG only appeared in 05. Even when all models are available with a really good autobox, people will still have reasonable concerns about reliability and cost to repair the new autoboxes in the long term.

Zube

milltown wrote: »

The new system, in many cases, pushes the less economical autos into higher bands for both VRT and annual road tax.

Seems fair to me. The same system can push a DSG equipped car into a lower bracket, as DSG boxes are more economical than manuals, in test conditions at least. This isn't picking on autos, it's picking on less efficient cars.

Drummerboy08

Jesus, this forum attracts some clowns sometimes.

I have always driven a manual. I like driving a manual, for lots of little reasons, but the main reason is i like the experience of driving a manual.

Obviously there are lots of pro's and con's to auto boxes, here's a few IMO -

Con's
- Auto's are generally more expensive to buy
- Auto's usually have a higher tax band
- Can have a poor resale value in certain size/models of car
- Can be expensive to repair in the event of breakdown
- Can cause a vehicle to use more fuel

Pro's
- Great in stop/start traffic/Long cruising journeys
- Can often have a better resale value (Again, depends on the car)
- Can be alot smoother in the changes through gears

I personally would only buy an auto if i was buying something big, like a Merc E class, BMW 5 series. If i was buying something small, like a Nissan Micra, i'd stick to the manual boxes.

Again, some cars only come with auto boxes, as its become the norm for someone to buy one with an auto box, making the development of a manual box useless (Jaguar XF for one)

One of the biggest reasons IMO that manual boxes are still around, is simply the purchase and running costs involved (buying, tax, fuel)

Just my opinions however!

milltown

Zube wrote: »

Seems fair to me. The same system can push a DSG equipped car into a lower bracket, as DSG boxes are more economical than manuals, in test conditions at least. This isn't picking on autos, it's picking on less efficient cars.

Hence why I said "the less efficient autos". I'll say it one more time: Road tax should be paid at the pump. It should be a usage tax, not an ownership tax. Taxed on the CO2 system my car would be 1 gram into the top tax rate but I do less than half the average annual mileage. It's like issuing speeding tickets to anyone whose car is capable of going over 120kph. /Rant

To be fair this thread has been less about cost of ownership and more about fanboyism anyway. Change a few details and it could be any PS3 vs. XBox360 or Liverpool vs. Man U thread. Can't we all just get along?

Eoin

Drummerboy08 wrote:

Auto's usually have a higher tax band

Obviously only post '08 ones.

Anyway, I can completely understand why people drive manuals. I'd say apart from the peformance cars with the elaborate dual clutch auto boxes, a manual does give you more control and gives a more connected driving experience.

My issue is with the notion that an auto is a completely unrewarding drive - that's just not true. Take something like a e38 with a V8. It's a luxurious drive, but handles better than a lot of cars that size. Put the foot down, and you get pushed back into the seat, and it goes like the clappers. A manual in that car would be a horrible thing to deal with. Likewise, my current car handles well and is nice in traffic. Put the gearstick to the left, and it's in sport mode and I find it a joy to drive.

If I was getting a weekend car for fun, it would probably be a manual but that would depend entirely on the car. My next car will probably be an auto, but again - it depends what car I get. If it's an e46 M3, then I have concerns over the maintenance of the SMG gearbox. If it's something like a 535d, then it will be auto.

VanhireBoys

I rarely drive autos. When we went on honeymoon I got a Mustang GT as a rental car. I really wanted a Focus but thats the way it happened....! It took about 10mins to get used it.. You just adapt no problem unless you are a total dimwit altogether...! To me it dosent matter what transmission the car is fitted with.... I wouldnt shoot a car down just cause it was an auto.

I drove a friends 1.6 focus auto and it was grand. One of the best autos I drove was a 1.8 Almera auto. The worst was a 07 Megane auto but thats nothing to do with the box...

But Jaysus that Mustang......! mmmmm

The Recliner

I used to have a Jag XK8, they only come in Auto

The combination of the V8 engine and the Auto was superb, it was quick off the line from a standing start and when overtaking it was excellent, put the foot down and it would drop a gear and take off

I have also driven a manual Micra hire car and it is the biggest piece of sh!t I have ever been in

I wouldn't write off manual or Auto based on just those experiences, I think it comes down to the right box in the right car, in some it is terrible and in other excellent

I have an RX-8 currently and it is a great car but I still love that Jag and probably always will

nialler

ninty9er wrote: »

I'd be fairly certain that most S-Class or 3-Series drivers aren't even aware they have a manual shift option. An M3 driver probably would, but that's only a probability.

Little plus and minus signs either side of "D" display reads the gear setting so when overtaking while in DS double tap to the negative wait for your revs to hit 3+ thousand foot to the floor and you whizz by what's in front of you, I wouldn't generalise about an S-class driver's ability to know that there's a manual shift option, sports settings on the suspension, summer/winter settings and suspenion lift for rough ground, don't forget the kickdown but not as responsive as the manual gear settings.

And as milltown said there is an element of fanboyism about the thread, basically it's all down to personal preference, I like being carted around in my front room in relative comfort and safety, some people enjoy a more involved experience and there's been some good and bad points for both manuals and auto boxes, each to their own.

vibe666

actuallythought of some minus points for an auto.

you can't push start one if the battery is flat like you can with a manual.

if you need to get it towed the driving wheels need to be lifted off the ground so you can't tow it behind another car, it needs to be professionally recovered.

and no, i didn't break down over the weekend.

Matt Simis

nialler wrote: »

Little plus and minus signs either side of "D" display reads the gear setting so when overtaking while in DS double tap to the negative wait for your revs to hit 3+ thousand foot to the floor and you whizz by what's in front of you, I wouldn't generalise about an S-class driver's ability to know that there's a manual shift option, sports settings on the suspension, summer/winter settings and suspenion lift for rough ground, don't forget the kickdown but not as responsive as the manual gear settings.

The Phaeton is an SClass competitor with similar features but by the sounds of it has a more aggressive gear box (and gear selection algorithim) in Sports Mode. Regarding not being as responsive vs Manual (Tip) Mode, the "Drive" Setting isnt, but the S Mode does something you cant with the Manual up and down selection, Ive seen it drop from 5th to 2nd (3 gear drops in less time than 1 drop in manual mode) for maximum acceleration. Basically the "Up/Down" function on the Tip. box is virtually useless when paired with 2 good auto modes. It is useful for engine braking, but I tend to coast through corners and such.

Bearing in mind its a diesel (and people say they dont use gears), thats some serious torque it puts down when it wants to move. To the point of 4 wheel (quattro) spin on on loose surfaces.

The very first 600 Phaetons were Manuals and apparently a snoozefest (largely due to a puny 3.2L V6 engine). They quickly and quietly dropped the manual in favour of Tiptronics across the range, it didnt suit the car at all.

VinnyTGM

Matt Simis wrote: »

The Phaeton is an SClass competitor with similar features but by the sounds of it has a more aggressive gear box (and gear selection algorithim) in Sports Mode. Regarding not being as responsive vs Manual (Tip) Mode, the "Drive" Setting isnt, but the S Mode does something you cant with the Manual up and down selection, Ive seen it drop from 5th to 2nd (3 gear drops in less time than 1 drop in manual mode) for maximum acceleration. Basically the "Up/Down" function on the Tip. box is virtually useless when paired with 2 good auto modes. It is useful for engine braking, but I tend to coast through corners and such.

Bearing in mind its a diesel (and people say they dont use gears), thats some serious torque it puts down when it wants to move. To the point of 4 wheel (quattro) spin on on loose surfaces.

The very first 600 Phaetons were Manuals and apparently a snoozefest (largely due to a puny 3.2L V6 engine). They quickly and quietly dropped the manual in favour of Tiptronics across the range, it didnt suit the car at all.

You know that you can drop 3 gears in a manual straightaway aswell.
Also auto boxs have less power going to the wheels compared to manuals.

Zube

VinnyTGM wrote: »

Also auto boxs have less power going to the wheels compared to manuals.

[Family Fortunes] NEH-Neh![/Family Fortunes]

Matt Simis

VinnyTGM wrote: »

You know that you can drop 3 gears in a manual straightaway aswell. Also auto boxs have less power going to the wheels compared to manuals.

Lol, you dont say? We were comparing Tiptronic manual gear selection modes vs full auto mode.
Regarding less power going to the wheels, do you know what tiny amounts we are talking about and at that, only until the torque convertor gets upto speed, then the efficiency is about the same. If you want to talk performance differences, how about brake-torque launches on Drag racers? A feature of race Auto boxes.

Im middle of the road for the boxes, the right box for the right car. Stupid one liners dont add anything.

stratos

Tearing into a corner far too fast, using the brakes to slow a bit, ramming it down a gear let the clutch out, hear the engine scream, the back squirm, brake a bit, clutch in, ram down another gear clutch out, feel the back get looser, engine screaming, hit the apex, floor the accelerator feel the rear hunker down, clutch in, up a gear nail the accelerator. now you can't do that with an automatic gearbox . oh and they use more fuel so the they are less green.:P.

Zube

stratos wrote: »

Tearing into a corner far too fast, using the brakes to slow a bit, ramming it down a gear let the clutch out, hear the engine scream, the back squirm, brake a bit, clutch in, ram down another gear clutch out, feel the back get looser, engine screaming,.

I suppose you think this sort of mechanical abuse of your clutch is "engine braking". You're not the first.

stratos

engine braking ,breaking who cares. you have more control and a massive smile on your face when it works out, and a story to tell when it doesn't.:D

copacetic

stratos wrote: »

Tearing into a corner far too fast, using the brakes to slow a bit, ramming it down a gear let the clutch out, hear the engine scream, the back squirm, brake a bit, clutch in, ram down another gear clutch out, feel the back get looser, engine screaming, hit the apex, floor the accelerator feel the rear hunker down, clutch in, up a gear nail the accelerator. now you can't do that with an automatic gearbox . oh and they use more fuel so the they are less green.:P.

You can do all that minus the 'clutch' bits which are hardly important in most newer autos, and they don't use more fuel.

maidhc

Lots of reasons manuals are more popular:

a) Cheaper
b) More suited to smaller displacement cars
c) Generally more economical
d) And now, diesel autos seem to have very high Co2 emissions relative to the manual versions.

galwaytt

stratos wrote: »

Tearing into a corner far too fast, using the brakes to slow a bit, ramming it down a gear let the clutch out, hear the engine scream, the back squirm, brake a bit, clutch in, ram down another gear clutch out, feel the back get looser, engine screaming, hit the apex, floor the accelerator feel the rear hunker down, clutch in, up a gear nail the accelerator. now you can't do that with an automatic gearbox . oh and they use more fuel so the they are less green.:P.

What you're describing has nothing to do with gearbox's..........just poor driving.

It's also indicative of the fact you don't know the majority of cars are now fwd...........so even doing the above...........will just put you through a hedge......

And you're wrong about the economy and green, as well.

galwaytt

maidhc wrote: »

Lots of reasons manuals are more popular:

a) Cheaper
b) More suited to smaller displacement cars
c) Generally more economical
d) And now, diesel autos seem to have very high Co2 emissions relative to the manual versions.

a) yes. This is just down to qty produced. Once they become the norm, that price gap will disappear.
b) no. More often used in low-torque cars (e.g. petrol)
c) No. DSG more economical than manual
d) see c)

stratos

I drive a mixture of manual and auto box cars. I have never driven a front wheel drive car hard ( i wouldn't want to) so I can't comment on them. The auto box gives you less control I'm not talking semi automatic.
Autoboxes use more fuel than manuals it's just a feature of losses in the torque convertor, and they weigh a lot.
I use the auto car when I feel lazy and just want to go somewhere. I use the manual to put a smile on my face or just do a bit of technical driving.
I have no idea why This got so attacked, driving a manual can be very technicaly rearding. I don't know why this is considered bad driving, the car is on song at 5000 rpm coming out of a corner and nailing it with less just won't work.
Autoboxes have their place but i don't think they will ever become the norm.

DUBLINHITMAN

ive seen alot of nice cars and as soon as i see the park neautral stick i cringe turns me off completly
i used to drive automatic machines in work good for that but road cars NO thanks

kdak

manual is for someone who likes driving, better response from the car and imo better all round, auto is ideal for executive crusiers and low cc engines as they are more ideal for learning to drive with out added stress of gear changes, cutting out ect. triptonic(semi auto) is ideal for race bread cars r35gtr newwer moddel ferrari's ect where the milli secounds count for the race

Eoin

kdak wrote: »

manual is for someone who likes driving, better response from the car and imo better all round, auto is ideal for executive crusiers and low cc engines as they are more ideal for learning to drive with out added stress of gear changes, cutting out ect. triptonic(semi auto) is ideal for race bread cars r35gtr newwer moddel ferrari's ect where the milli secounds count for the race

I'll say it again - just because a car is an automatic does not mean it's a completely disconnected driving experience.

I think learners should start in a manual, and then make their mind up once they've got their licence.

maidhc

galwaytt wrote: »

a) yes. This is just down to qty produced. Once they become the norm, that price gap will disappear.

But they are far more complex!

galwaytt wrote: »

b) no. More often used in low-torque cars (e.g. petrol)

I would disagree. Autos have traditionaly been the preserve of larger more expensive cars. E.g. Mercedes. I know Nissan in particular fitted a fair few to smaller cars, but I think the power losses in traditional autos meant that it was invariably 2.0+ petrol engines.

galwaytt wrote: »

c) No. DSG more economical than manual

Probably, but DSG is a new technology and not an auto in the sense of having a torque converter. It isn't widely available, and will never be a contender until the price comes down.

galwaytt wrote: »

d) see c)

Yes, but if you take the BMW 520d (for example) you will see it makes no sense to get the auto.

TomMc

DUBLINHITMAN wrote: »

ive seen alot of nice cars and as soon as i see the park neautral stick i cringe turns me off completly
i used to drive automatic machines in work good for that but road cars NO thanks

Comparing a modern auto car with something like a forklift, is like comparing a manual car with an old tractor.