Why aren't all cars automatic?

zynaps

I think some of the opinions espoused towards automatics are based on very outdated assumptions.

Efficiency: Modern automatics (in fact, most in the last 15-20 years or so) use a lockup clutch (once you hit about 45kph) to bind the input and output shafts through the torque converter, rather than using the fluid to transfer power. At low speeds, gear changes in a manual waste some energy burning up the clutch, too. Autos are getting more and more efficient all the time really.

And not all auto gearboxes are the same; I've got one of the CVT Micras (before they brought in stupid conventional auto boxes in 2003) which is very nice to drive. I don't even knock it into neutral at the lights - once your foot is off the gas, it won't push forwards, so I can just stop and put the handbrake on. Also it's got fairly serious engine braking (maybe a little more than I'd like) - especially at low speeds, if you take your foot off the accelerator you can feel it slowing down quickly. I usually just ease my foot off slowly as I come up to stopped traffic, only braking at the end to stop from about 10kph.
It's also never "between" gears like a conventional auto or manual, which is nice, and being a CVT, the Micra doesn't suffer from the "gear hunting" problem conventional autos face when climbing hills etc.

Obviously the "no fun to drive" is completely in the eye of the beholder - anyone who claims this is an argument against autos is talking rubbish. I enjoy going out in mine, even more than I did in my old manual Fiesta. So much more relaxing, especially into corners, start/stop traffic, up steep hills etc.

And the "more control" argument is pretty weak. By that logic, wouldn't you prefer to be constantly adjusting the choke, modifying the distributor timing and whatever else, as you're going down the road? Probably not

Probably the only downsides for me are the high RPMs (normal driving is always ~2000 RPM, pretty heavy acceleration is up to 3000, dunno what flooring it in Ds mode is like since I've only used it once and didn't like it) and the slightly excessive engine braking effect.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but there seems to be a bit too much ranting about how manuals are great and autos are for the old, gay and female I'm none of these (yet) and I enjoy driving both manuals and autos, but for me a (decent) automatic is more relaxing and leaves me with more concentration to spend on observation, steering and just basically driving the thing properly.

Cookie_Monster

I'd only prefer an auto in heavy traffic.

Manuals are so much more engaging otherwise

golfdiva

Most people who rattle on about the benefits of manual have never driven an auto for a period of time to offer a objective opinion.

Most auto drivers have changed from manual and know which is better

Pdfile

NiSmO wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

taxi drivers go fast ??


not hen im in the back for some reason ?! :mad:

moonage

Driving an automatic is a more refined and civilised experience.

With a manual, the fiddling around with a lever and pedal seems rather pointless and unnecessary; all that pushing, pulling and dragging for nowt.

In this day and age, it's surprising that this crude technology hasn't been consigned to a musuem.

>>>

ytareh

Cant believe so many motoring 'enthusiasts' here favouring auto over manual for general use...unless things have really come forward in last 10 years autos ARE slower,dearer , use more fuel and worst of all liable to change up or down in mid corner ...


3min11sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPOW1kLvWEg

R.O.R

ytareh wrote: »

Cant believe so many motoring 'enthusiasts' here favouring auto over manual for general use...unless things have really come forward in last 10 years autos ARE slower,dearer , use more fuel and worst of all liable to change up or down in mid corner ...

Thnings really have come forward in the last 10 years and we are now seeing a greater demand for Auto's both new and used.

The difference it can make on a journey with lots of traffic is amazing. If I have to go out of the office, I'll always take an auto if we have one hanging around.

Gary ITR

Before anybody else chimes in just take note this thread is about 7 months old

Tar.Aldarion

ytareh wrote: »

Cant believe so many motoring 'enthusiasts' here favouring auto over manual for general use...unless things have really come forward in last 10 years autos ARE slower,dearer , use more fuel and worst of all liable to change up or down in mid corner ...


3min11sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPOW1kLvWEg

Do you know how long ten years in technology terms? :-O

Cookie_Monster

Onkle wrote: »

Before anybody else chimes in just take note this thread is about 7 months old

No reason not to continue the discussion though.

My mother has an auto grand vitara and I drive it often enough. Its not great, changes up and down randomly at times.

The_Conductor

I know its not an automatic- but I'm in love with sports gear boxes.
I've had a chance to play with a tiptronic box, and I want one.......

Barr

I was a die hard manual advocate and used to look down on auto cars.

Then my Dad lent me his SAAB auto. Hated it for the first week, kept putting my hand down to change gear and there was nothing.

By the time he wanted it back I was totally converted and now see manuals as a bit pointless unless there in a "sports car "

Tragedy

There's just something visceral about slotting the gear into place.

Torquey diesel with heavy clutch and really satisfying manual gearbox = so enjoyable to drive outside town, nevermind overtaking on the likes of the N7.

Lisnagry

shamblertine wrote: »

What reason is there for still making manual gearbox cars? Can't think of any advantage myself to having a manual gearbox.

Control

Matt Simis

smccarrick wrote: »

I know its not an automatic- but I'm in love with sports gear boxes.
I've had a chance to play with a tiptronic box, and I want one.......

Tiptronics are Autos!? I assume you are referring to SMG, like in the BMW M5 (E60)?

Tragedy

Matt Simis wrote: »

Tiptronics are Autos!? I assume you are referring to SMG, like in the BMW M5 (E60)?

Tiptronic are autoboxes, geartronic in volvos for example.

The_Conductor

Tragedy wrote: »

Tiptronic are autoboxes, geartronic in volvos for example.

Yep- its a Volvo geartronic- absolute joy to use......

Barr

Lisnagry wrote: »

Control

Control of what ?

Matt Simis

Tragedy wrote: »

Tiptronic are autoboxes, geartronic in volvos for example.

Thats exactly what I said. Still an Auto box but with a fancy "manual" control mode. Im referring to smccarrick's post about tips not being autos.

Barr wrote: »

Control of what ?

Presumably control of being in the gear you want ahead of the point an auto would be, because you know what you are going to do (over take truck, accelerate up hill, sharp left at top for instance) before the auto does. But you know that and are just being argumentative.

DublinWriter

Berkut wrote: »

Automatic cars are for old farts and woman and F1 drivers..

...and Americans.

When I was there I was asked if I could drive 'stick' and when I answered in the affirmative you'd swear I'd just told them I'd undertaken a PhD in particle physics by the looks of awe I got.

Lisnagry

Barr wrote: »

Control of what ?

The car.

Busta Hyman

eoin wrote: »

I've a 525 auto, and love it. I've also test driven a 740 and also found it excellent to drive.

just skimming through the posts but i have to say my mams car is a 2.8 l (i think) 5 series and the auld fellas in a 4.4l 7 series both are absolutly gorgeous and fast as fcuk with auto gearboxes but they are big engines with lots of powers and tourqes. my missuses 1.6l focus i fear would be a much less plesent experience with an auto box

stratos wrote: »

Tearing into a corner far too fast, using the brakes to slow a bit, ramming it down a gear let the clutch out, hear the engine scream, the back squirm, brake a bit, clutch in, ram down another gear clutch out, feel the back get looser, engine screaming,

trhats just pure mechanical abuse and not to mention the bit where the pistons go through the bonnet and your gearbox and clutch disentegrates! for fast cornering i was taught to brake in a straight line , off the brakes soft acell turn in and accelerate right through the apex to exit

stratos wrote: »

engine braking ,breaking who cares. you have more control and a massive smile on your face when it works out, and a story to tell when it doesn't.

tbh your method sounds like your not in control of the car .... or your keyboard

The_Conductor

Busta Hyman wrote: »

just skimming through the posts but i have to say my mams car is a 2.8 l (i think) 5 series and the auld fellas in a 4.4l 7 series both are absolutly gorgeous and fast as fcuk with auto gearboxes but they are big engines with lots of powers and tourqes. my missuses 1.6l focus i fear would be a much less plesent experience with an auto box

You're very obviously not comparing like with like- but a 1.6 Focus *is* a massive stepup from what the average driver out there drives, and handles incredibly well.

Cormac2791

manuals are more fun

btkm8unsl0w5r4

cormacharraghy wrote: »

manuals are more fun

So is a 1.6 focus manual more fun than a 4.2 V8 auto? Its about engine size, autos dont work well with smaller engines, the auto boxes in these small cars are also a bit rubbish. Its why high end car are mostly auto, because the have good auto boxes and engines to match. As for all that engine breaking stuff, my auto does that, it downshifts, engine breaks, throttle blips and rev matches and I can control the gears manually if I want, so no disadvantage except no clutch pedal. As for the post talking about stepping the back out, thats a very slow way to corner.

The reason most car a manual is cause it is cheaper and better for ringing out the performance of small engined cars.

Paul_D

Taken directly from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_transmission#Benefits_and_drawbacks

Manual transmissions generally offer better fuel economy than automatic torque converter transmissions; however the disparity has been somewhat offset with the introduction of locking torque converters on automatic transmissions. Increased fuel economy with a properly operated manual transmission vehicle versus an equivalent automatic transmission vehicle can range from 5% to about 15% depending on driving conditions and style of driving. Manual transmissions do not require active cooling and generally weigh less than comparable automatics. The manual transmission couples the engine to the transmission with a rigid clutch instead of a torque converter which slips by nature. Manual transmissions also lack the parasitic power consumption of the automatic transmission's hydraulic pump.

Manual transmissions also generally offer a higher selection of gear ratios. Many vehicles offer a 5-speed or 6-speed manual, whereas the automatic option would be a 4-speed all the way up to an (more recently) 8-speed. The higher selection of gears allowed for more uses of the engine's power band, allowing for higher fuel economy and power output. This is generally due to the space available inside of a manual transmission versus an automatic since the latter requires extra components for self-shifting, such as torque converters and pumps.

Manual transmissions are more efficient than conventional automatics and belt-driven continuously-variable transmissions. The driver has more direct control over the car with a manual than with an automatic, which can be employed by an experienced, knowledgeable driver who knows the correct procedure for executing a driving maneuver, and wants the vehicle to realize his or her intentions exactly and instantly. When starting forward, for example, the driver can control how much torque goes to the tires, which is useful on slippery surfaces such as ice, snow or mud. This can be done with clutch finesse, or by starting in second gear instead of first. An engine coupled with a manual transmission can often be started by the method of push starting. This is particularly useful if the starter is inoperable or defunct. Likewise, a vehicle with a manual transmission and no clutch/starter interlock switch can be moved, if necessary, by putting it in gear and cranking the starter. This is useful when the vehicle will not start, but must be immediately moved e.g. off the road in the event of a breakdown, if the vehicle has stalled on a railway crossing, or in extreme off-roading cases such as an engine that has stalled in deep water.

Currently only fully manual transmissions allow the driver to fully exploit the engine power at low to medium engine speeds. This is due to the fact that even automatic transmissions which provide some manual mode (e.g. tiptronic or DSG), use a throttle kickdown switch, which forces a downshift on full throttle and causes the gearbox to ignore a user command to upshift on full throttle. This is especially notable on uphill roads, where cars with automatic transmission need to slow down to avoid downshifts, whereas cars with manual transmission and identical or lower engine power are still able to maintain their speed.

In contrast to most manual gearboxes, most automatic transmissions have a free-wheel-clutch. This means that the engine does not slow down the car when the driver steps off the throttle. This leads to more usage of the brakes in cars with automatic transmissions.

Manual transmissions place slightly more workload on the driver in heavy traffic situations, when the driver must often operate the clutch pedal. In comparison, automatic transmissions merely require moving the foot from the accelerator pedal to the brake pedal, and vice versa. Manual transmissions require the driver to remove one hand periodically from the steering wheel while the vehicle is in motion. This causes the driver to burn an average of 29 more calorie per hour than when using an automatic transmission.

The NHTSA reports that manual transmissions also result in 37% fewer accidents per mile driven. Experts believe that this is due to the extra attention required while driving a stick-shift. For example, it is difficult to use a cell phone while driving a manual transmission.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Everything above it true, if the year was 1995.

Paul_D

Armani Rich Medicine wrote: »

Everything above it true, if the year was 1995.

What about the fact that you can push start a manual and it's better for icy conditions (like today)

The_Conductor

Paul_D wrote: »

it's better for icy conditions (like today)

Depends- some models have modes specifically tailored for icy conditions.

Guy:Incognito

Paul_D wrote: »

What about the fact that you can push start a manual and it's better for icy conditions (like today)

My car had a button for icey and snowy weather. Doing it yourslef is for losers.:)

Eoin

Paul_D wrote: »

What about the fact that you can push start a manual and it's better for icy conditions (like today)

I can't even remember the last time I had to jump start a car I've owned - it certainly wouldn't be anywhere near a factor that I would consider. Icy weather - have tiptronic if needs be, but it wasn't really an issue in the snow we had this year.

neilthefunkeone

because i have a choice.... Manual...

stringbox

Aren't manuals more efficient?

The_Conductor

Is it time to lock this zombie thread?

Guy:Incognito

stringbox wrote: »

Aren't manuals more efficient?

Not so much anymore, but small engined diesel cars are more efficient than larger petrol ones, so seeing as the efficiency line is being used so much, why are'nt we all driving the most fuel efficient car possible?

copacetic

smccarrick wrote: »

Is it time to lock this zombie thread?

+1 on this, same arguments repeated over and over with repeated use of uninformed 'truths'

mooman

smccarrick wrote: »

Is it time to lock this zombie thread?

Yes, because it's a stupid argument. Everybody knows automatics are for fat Yanks and taxi drivers.

c4cat

unkel wrote: »

We're talking 0-100km/h acceleration, I presume? On a modern decent car with a tiny bit of performance (I'm not talking a 1l Micra here) a manual is typically only faster on paper. This means the acceleration times when it is driven by a professional racing driver who knows the car very well indeed.

For you, me and everyone else who has ever posted on this forum, the manual is slower

Autos are great when you want to pull away quick fm a standing start, eg when you need to pull away quick from traffic lights to change lanes ahead, also less tiring if you got to do a lot of city driving. I think if Autos came befor the manuals, manuals would never have caught on

-Chris-

smccarrick wrote: »

Is it time to lock this zombie thread?

copacetic wrote: »

+1 on this, same arguments repeated over and over with repeated use of uninformed 'truths'

Done!

mooman wrote: »

Yes, because it's a stupid argument. Everybody knows automatics are for fat Yanks and taxi drivers.

And quotes like this are the reason it is now locked...