Was Leitrim 'defaced' during the celtic tiger years?

JHMEG

I was on the train a few weeks ago and I overheard two gentlemen behind me talking about lack of "planning" by the county council and the over-development of parts of the county as a result.

Dromahair came in for particular criticism as having been 'defaced' and 'destroyed'. Indeed a quick look on daft.ie and Dromahair has 71 properties for sale and a population of 501. In contrast, Leixlip in Co. Kildare has 69 properties for sale but has a population 29 times the size (14,600).

From my own observations once beautiful little villages like Dromod are now defaced with "ghost estates", ie housing estates that are mostly, if not completely, empty.

Carrick has been defaced with Section 23 properties the likes of Lis Cara, Carrick's very own ghetto.

In addition how could "planners" let the pre-fab eye-sores that are Tesco and Woodies be built opposite the beautiful cut stone building and landscaped car park that belongs to MBNA?

I think the county that was probably once the most unspoilt in the country has been very badly damaged by the planners and property developers.

What do you think?

tuppence

JHMEG wrote: »

I was on the train a few weeks ago and I overheard two gentlemen behind me talking about lack of "planning" by the county council and the over-development of parts of the county as a result.

Dromahair came in for particular criticism as having been 'defaced' and 'destroyed'. Indeed a quick look on daft.ie and Dromahair has 71 properties for sale and a population of 501. In contrast, Leixlip in Co. Kildare has 69 properties for sale but has a population 29 times the size (14,600).

From my own observations once beautiful little villages like Dromod are now defaced with "ghost estates", ie housing estates that are mostly, if not completely, empty.

Carrick has been defaced with Section 23 properties the likes of Lis Cara, Carrick's very own ghetto.

In addition how could "planners" let the pre-fab eye-sores that are Tesco and Woodies be built opposite the beautiful cut stone building and landscaped car park that belongs to MBNA?

I think the county that was probably once the most unspoilt in the country has been very badly damaged by the planners and property developers.

What do you think?

I couldnt agree with you more. I suppose this was reflected in the most recent census too, when they couldnt get access to alot of places. Its not just the volume of the new builds, alot of the time it was the total insensitivity of design of the properties to the village that they were been built in. Dromahair has been visibly defaced, the Stonebridge estate being the one that managed to corrupt visibly every entrance of the village. :mad: Leitrim village has lost its charm imo, Dromad too. And Carrick was such a lovely town, it really didnt need that concrete infrastructure at its outskirts, light polution and all. In many ways you think you're coming in to a sizeable city or something rather than Carrick.
Its getting to a stage that its harder to think of a village/town that hasnt been badly effected. For me Mohill and Manorhamilton dont look as badly damaged to me, perhaps because any development is more subtle or in the case of Manor its scale could take it without it looking out of place. Suppose alot of these developers are feeling the pinch and alot are probably being baled out.......Where is the justice? Of course on the other hand there was alot of folk jumping on the get rich quick bandwagon using these tax subsidies too.

garbanzo

Yes I agree though we have no-one but ourselves to blame for letting all of this happen right under our noses. It is just so Irish.

il gatto

Planners go to town on single build houses, but seem to throw all the rules out the window for a developer. They could have made developers build more appropriate houses, nicer landscaping and zoned less obvious places and the developers would've complied. It was just too easy for all concerned. Planners should have to local, they should operate as a panel and the public should be consulted. As it was/is, planners are well paid civil servents who come up with strange decisions and who can quote any amount of patently ridiculous "reasoning" to back themselves up. You'll find when they decide to settle down somewhere, it won't be in one of their eyesore estates.

Having said that, I think although Dromahair has been ruined (and it has, in the most disgraceful way. Still, local celebs need the millions and everybody is only too keen to be cheerleaders for them), most of Leitrim isn't that bad. Maybe some struggling young people might get on the property ladder if there's so many vacant houses. I doubt it though. Greed. The Irish disease.

Rowley Birkin QC

First of all Planners don't make the decision, they make a recommendation and the County Manager signs off on the final decision.

Secondly, the Planners can only recommend a grant of permission based on the zoning laid out in the County Development Plan. Again the Planners will make recommendations for these zoning maps but any guesses as to who has the final say and are under no obligation to explain their decisions??

JHMEG

In my opinion planners made a lot of poor recommendations in the first place!

tuppence

I suppose how are we best to ensure that this defacement does not happen again? Or that houses that are laid idle can be best used for the public. I am thinking in light of the local elections coming up....Dont the councillors have a bearing on all this zoning etc? Ideas are welcome.

Rowley Birkin QC

Thats what I was alluding to. Councillors don't just have a bearing on the zoning, they can change it around whatever way they see fit after public consultation on the Dev. Plan is over.

jimmmy

JHMEG wrote: »

I was on the train a few weeks ago and I overheard two gentlemen behind me talking about lack of "planning" by the county council and the over-development of parts of the county as a result.

Dromahair came in for particular criticism as having been 'defaced' and 'destroyed'. Indeed a quick look on daft.ie and Dromahair has 71 properties for sale and a population of 501. In contrast, Leixlip in Co. Kildare has 69 properties for sale but has a population 29 times the size (14,600).

From my own observations once beautiful little villages like Dromod are now defaced with "ghost estates", ie housing estates that are mostly, if not completely, empty.

Carrick has been defaced with Section 23 properties the likes of Lis Cara, Carrick's very own ghetto.

In addition how could "planners" let the pre-fab eye-sores that are Tesco and Woodies be built opposite the beautiful cut stone building and landscaped car park that belongs to MBNA?

I think the county that was probably once the most unspoilt in the country has been very badly damaged by the planners and property developers.

What do you think?

I have to agree. Its a shame and a waste what has happened. The only winners was the government coffers, who benefited from the tax got during their construction. Many of the people who were persuaded to "invest" in bricks 'n mortar in Ireland, often with bank loans, are now in negative equity.

tuppence

bigkev49 wrote: »

Thats what I was alluding to. Councillors don't just have a bearing on the zoning, they can change it around whatever way they see fit after public consultation on the Dev. Plan is over.

What do you recommend? This isnt my area but I am interested in it. If they have that much influence surely it is imperative that we vote in ones that we feel are going to guard our natural environment rather than assist to debase it? I know that this is easier said than done as people were desperate for the "progress" (many called it) that hastened alot of this decline we are now witnessing.
Oh btw is there anything that can be done with one off bad planning that has already been done do you know? (Or is all a waste of time) I am thinking in particluar of St Angelas that I feel has ruined for many the natural scenary on Lough Gill? I realise that this is a neighbouring county but it influences Leitrim tourism I would have thought..:( Is there an influence on it? eg Could we get promises from councillors on the doorstep to bring a motion to paint it even........(okay I am, desperately clutching at straws! :rolleyes:)

Rowley Birkin QC

tuppence wrote: »

What do you recommend? This isnt my area but I am interested in it. If they have that much influence surely it is imperative that we vote in ones that we feel are going to guard our natural environment rather than assist to debase it? I know that this is easier said than done as people were desperate for the "progress" (many called it) that hastened alot of this decline we are now witnessing.

I'm not from Leitrim but my girlfriend is from Longford and I only know the villages and towns being spoken about here from driving through/stopping for a bite to eat. Have to say I find Carrick to be a lovely town, that empty development in the centre is a complete eyesore though.

I'm also just finishing my Degree in Town Planning. Honestly I think that all zoning should be done at a regional level, the system in Ireland is horribly outdated. If the zoning is carried out at the regional level then local politics can be , largely, removed from the equation and decisions can be made based on population predictions/trends, age profiles, availability of infrastructure in the region, individual towns place on the hierarchy of settlements, environmental designations etc. etc. etc. In practice this would mean that some towns/villages get zero or very little development but those that do make use of it and do not have entire estates lying idle. Entirely more sustainable than zoning everything everywhere and hoping some of it takes off.

Currently Planners can make all these recommendations based on fact regarding the DP but councillors can change zoning at a whim, not saying that this is corruption but their eyes are always focused on election time and keeping their constituents happy, i.e. making sure the development happens in their town and not down the road.

tuppence wrote: »

Oh btw is there anything that can be done with one off bad planning that has already been done do you know? (Or is all a waste of time) I am thinking in particluar of St Angelas that I feel has ruined for many the natural scenary on Lough Gill?

As to what to do with empty existing developments, I recently worked on a project with Dublin City Council where we suggested the Council negotiate temporary leases on behalf of Community Groups/Sports Clubs/Parent and Toddler Groups or allow them to be used as business incubator units at a low rent. Maybe something like that might work in some of these towns and villages. If its something like painting or rendering, go and check the planning decision to see if there was a condition on the grant stating that the outside of the building should be painted/rendered or if it should be screened from view.

One small point, and I really don't mean to come across as condescending but a development never "ruins" the view/scenery, it changes it.

tuppence

bigkev49 wrote: »

I'm also just finishing my Degree in Town Planning. Honestly I think that all zoning should be done at a regional level, the system in Ireland is horribly outdated. If the zoning is carried out at the regional level then local politics can be , largely, removed from the equation and decisions can be made based on population predictions/trends, age profiles, availability of infrastructure in the region, individual towns place on the hierarchy of settlements, environmental designations etc. etc. etc. In practice this would mean that some towns/villages get zero or very little development but those that do make use of it and do not have entire estates lying idle. Entirely more sustainable than zoning everything everywhere and hoping some of it takes off.

Currently Planners can make all these recommendations based on fact regarding the DP but councillors can change zoning at a whim, not saying that this is corruption but their eyes are always focused on election time and keeping their constituents happy, i.e. making sure the development happens in their town and not down the road.[PHP][/PHP]



PHP][/PHP]One small point, and I really don't mean to come across as condescending but a development never "ruins" the view/scenery, it changes it.

The regional theory you propose sounds good. In the meantime we are left with a system that could be open to exploitation I suppose.

Re the view: It was changed! (Ruined!!!) We are talking the Lake Isle of Innisfree here. There was no development except a small college, then they put up an extension that looks like the worst type of apartments people used to complain about on the mediterranean!:eek:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1019/1286200536_05886f6958.jpg?v=0

The photo doesnt even give the full extent of the environemental damage imo.

JHMEG

That's horrendous!:eek:

IIMII

God almighty - are they even occupied?

tuppence

Its about as shocking as it gets alright....:( Dont know what the occupancy is up there, whether its all students etc. There may be a conference centre within it too too. The views from them are probably great. The view of them from the Leitrim side lake...desperate. :mad: When you go up there, its all on different levels, a concrete jungle. :eek:

il gatto

bigkev49 wrote: »

First of all Planners don't make the decision, they make a recommendation and the County Manager signs off on the final decision.

Secondly, the Planners can only recommend a grant of permission based on the zoning laid out in the County Development Plan. Again the Planners will make recommendations for these zoning maps but any guesses as to who has the final say and are under no obligation to explain their decisions??

I know how it works and I also know the hassle people have had from anal planners making them jump through hoops while letting other people do as they wish. I don't want to decry your chosed profession, but planning in Ireland has a bad reputation with good reason. The County Manager doesn't bother looking at plans too closely unless it's something obviously out of place. It would be an impractical waste of time and probably not even possible in bigger counties unless they work 24/7.
The county development plan is drawn up by planners(the same ones that prevented Sligo from having a grocery shop outside the town center). And while in theory, the reasoning might be sound, the outcome is sometimes ridiculous.
If planners are not to blame, that means the council took all the bad decisions. If planners opinions are ignored, then we probably shouldn't be paying so many of them so much money. Either they take the rap for poor planning, or they hold their hands up and say we don't do anything which has an outcome as the councillors do as they please. Can't have it every way.

cronndiesel

JHMEG wrote: »

That's horrendous!:eek:

you should see it from the far side of lough gill or indeed any side but there is a solution just camofalge it (ever see how an army hides instillations??-"cant bomb what you cant see")
theres also a civilian version -you take a photograph of it from far away and its established (i think by a software programme these days but it can be done by a specialist or even an artist) what colours are sourronding it and paint/hang creepers on the walls to reduce the visual impact
its been around since the 60s. (does anybody know about this i only know the bare bones) The colours have to be spot on though and needs redoing every so often but it would be a job for someone
the new sheds being built by farmers under the euro farm building scheme have to be painted dark green and it makes a difference when you look from afar

il gatto

cronndiesel wrote: »

you should see it from the far side of lough gill or indeed any side but there is a solution just camofalge it (ever see how an army hides instillations??-"cant bomb what you cant see")
theres also a civilian version -you take a photograph of it from far away and its established (i think by a software programme these days but it can be done by a specialist or even an artist) what colours are sourronding it and paint/hang creepers on the walls to reduce the visual impact
its been around since the 60s. (does anybody know about this i only know the bare bones) The colours have to be spot on though and needs redoing every so often but it would be a job for someone
the new sheds being built by farmers under the euro farm building scheme have to be painted dark green and it makes a difference when you look from afar

So you're suggesting we bomb it? Fair enough. Where did I leave those detonators...:D

tuppence

il gatto wrote: »

So you're suggesting we bomb it? Fair enough. Where did I leave those detonators...:D

Thats a bit extreme aint it, cronndiesel was only recommending a paint job! If you must though, there in the cow shed...you might have problems finding it, its too well camoflaged.

JHMEG

tuppence wrote: »

you might have problems finding it, its too well camoflaged.

It's not. It has been demolished and in its place is a housing estate comprising 43 units, a mix of apartments, duplexes, semi-detached and detached residences.

Oh, and number one of the apartments, number 6B, is the only property occupied! :eek:

tuppence

JHMEG wrote: »

It's not. It has been demolished and in its place is a housing estate comprising 43 units, a mix of apartments, duplexes, semi-detached and detached residences.

Oh, and number one of the apartments, number 6B, is the only property occupied! :eek:

The shed is the only thing hard to find !
Is that the occupancy for St Angelas?

leinster93

Planning in Leitrim?? What planning.

On the Roscommon side of Carrick, just at the bridge, a developer had intended on knocking down the trees along the Shannon and erect a row of apartments, or so I believe. Some sort of building anyway. The trees are over a hundred years old, a crowing sanctuary for the crows in Summer time and a great landmark to Carrick.

Thankfully, a certain individual took a stand and called a town meeting to prevent this from going ahead but my point being there should have been more collective objections for the likes of Dromahair, Ballinamore, Rosinver etc. A bit late in the day. Much of the countryside has been defaced alright.

I would put that building over looking Lough Gill up there with the hateful watch tower in Lough Key Forest Park. Maybe, the government should incentivise the demolishing of a lot of buildings, giving employment to the country and help kick start the economy. What a bunch of cronies:mad:

il gatto

The tower is the least of Lough Key's worries. Building an f-ing hotel at the harbour and closing off carpaking space (not to mention a general lack of maintainance) are much worse. I think the ruin of Rockinham house would've been much easier on the eye than that tower though.

leinster93

Maybe when they're finished with the Spire on O'Connell Street they can send it down an put it where the tower is...maybe paint it green...

jimmmy

bigkev49 wrote: »

I'm also just finishing my Degree in Town Planning.

One small point, and I really don't mean to come across as condescending but a development never "ruins" the view/scenery, it changes it.

And to think you claim to have a "Degree in Town Planning", an education more than likely subsidised by the taxpayers someplace. If you really think a development never "ruins" the view/scenery, have a look at St. Angelas college from the other side of Lough Gill ; this development was mentioned in the previous post.

JHMEG

In fairness he's entitled to his opinion, something he put forward in a gentle and inoffensive way.

All 3rd level education is subsidised in this country.

Rowley Birkin QC

jimmmy wrote: »

And to think you claim to have a "Degree in Town Planning", an education more than likely subsidised by the taxpayers someplace. If you really think a development never "ruins" the view/scenery, have a look at St. Angelas college from the other side of Lough Gill ; this development was mentioned in the previous post.

I will have my degree in Spatial Planning & Environmental Management in two weeks, from D.I.T. Bolton Street, and I never received a single red cent in taxpayers money by way of a grant, rent assistance, nothing. I'm also a taxpayer by the way Jimmmy, part time at the moment along with a few years full time work, so park your presumptions at the door please.

To say a development "ruins the view" is entirely subjective, I'm not familiar with the development you are talking about above but to you it ruins the scenery, maybe to me it would enhance the scenery but the only objective way to describe it is that it changed the vista. Many people think the Spire on O'Connell Street in Dublin ruined the street, many think it enhanced the street, an objective observer knows that it merely changed the street.

What is the visual impact of the building? From how far away can it be seen and from how many places? Can the screening of the building be improved?

jimmmy

JHMEG wrote: »

In fairness he's entitled to his opinion, something he put forward in a gentle and inoffensive way..

True enough, but it does not say much for Bolton Street that it now produces graduates who, given their interest in the north-west, could not be bothered to even know or find out about the blot on the landscape at scenic Lough gill, seen clearly and standing out like a sore thumb from the far side of that large and beautiful lake. Another poster produced a photo link. It is a great pity, given that Bolton Street was once acknowledged as the premier establishment for such studies in the state.

JHMEG wrote: »

All 3rd level education is subsidised in this country.

My point entirely....pity the recipient of such education does not acknowledge that.

Rowley Birkin QC

jimmmy wrote: »

True enough, but it does not say much for Bolton Street that it now produces graduates who, given their interest in the north-west, could not be bothered to even know or find out about the blot on the landscape at scenic Lough gill, seen clearly and standing out like a sore thumb from the far side of that large and beautiful lake. Another poster produced a photo link. It is a great pity, given that Bolton Street was once acknowledged as the premier establishment for such studies in the state.


My point entirely....pity the recipient of such education does not acknowledge that.

I did look at that photo Jimmmy, the fact is that it is impossible to give an definitive answer on the visual impact of a structure based on one single photograph from one viewpoint. The area is heavily wooded, I would wager that from various positions the visual impact of building is greatly reduced.

Why do you think that Bolton St. has slipped from it's former position at the pinnacle of this kind of study? Many employers would disagree.

Regarding taxpayers assistance; my apologies, I thought you were referring to additional grants on top of the subsidised education to which everyone is entitled. As I pointed out I have contributed my fair share and not received anything above what everyone else is entitled to as per the education system in this country. This is getting way off topic though, if you have an issue with my education or how it was paid for take it up via PM.

jimmmy

Given you semmingly have an interest in the north-west surely it is incredible that you ( as a graduate with a degree in town planning ) are not familiar with the monstrosity defacing one of the premier and most picturesque lakes in the region ( if not the world), which has attracted much controversy ? Then you make a point in the same post "One small point, and I really don't mean to come across as condescending but a development never "ruins" the view/scenery, it changes it." Maybe you should take a drive around Lough Gill sometime.

If an English language graduate graduated from say Trinity or Cambridge and never heard of one of Shakespeares better known works I would not think much of their education either. This is not a personal attack on you ...its more a reflection of the education system / your college.

il gatto

bigkev49 wrote: »

I will have my degree in Spatial Planning & Environmental Management in two weeks, from D.I.T. Bolton Street, and I never received a single red cent in taxpayers money by way of a grant, rent assistance, nothing. I'm also a taxpayer by the way Jimmmy, part time at the moment along with a few years full time work, so park your presumptions at the door please.

To say a development "ruins the view" is entirely subjective, I'm not familiar with the development you are talking about above but to you it ruins the scenery, maybe to me it would enhance the scenery but the only objective way to describe it is that it changed the vista. Many people think the Spire on O'Connell Street in Dublin ruined the street, many think it enhanced the street, an objective observer knows that it merely changed the street.

What is the visual impact of the building? From how far away can it be seen and from how many places? Can the screening of the building be improved?

It's actually in Sligo, but overlooks a lake straddling (:D) the Sligo Leitrim border. Tbh it's a pretty much a monstrosity. I'm really suprised they weren't made to disguise it better. Put it this way, it's a like a piece of the Costa Del Sol has been transported to a wooded hillside, overlooking a particularly scenic lake and can be seen, day or night, for miles. The new college area is pretty well hidden by trees, but the accomodation is a true eyesore.

http://www.iiccc.info/st%20angela/images/iiccc_main_photo.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1019/1286200536_05886f6958.jpg?v=0

http://www.sasr.info/art/siteready/acc3.jpg

There is no "good" angle.