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Minister for education attends a private meeting with the SU.
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05-05-2009 12:37pmOn Tuesday the 5th of May NUIM SU attended a private meeting with Fianna Fail minister Batt O’Keefe – no notification was given to the student body. The SU while technically the representative organ of the student populace, did not inform the campus of the ministers arrival.
Batt O’Keefe is behind the current Gov move to re-introduce third level fees – legislation that is opposed both by the majority of the student population and the nation at large. The failure/refusal of the SU to notify the body it purportedly exists to represent should be taken either as sign of incompetence or betrayal. The NUIM student union is the only union nationwide to have failed with regards ministerial visits. The vast majority of USI collages have to date held protests pending ministerial visits in addition to engaging in blockades and occupations of Gov departments.
One can only speculate with regards the central comities internal intentions or motivations, however what is clear is that they have not acted in a transparent or democratic manner. The SUs purpose is by all accounts to serve as an organ of the campus thereby representing the interests of the student body proper – so long as the central committee acts in secrecy they fail in their function.
FEE holds that change will not come about via lobbying or small scale activism - large scale grassroots organization is required with a view towards tactical unity. FEEs membership has grown rapidly since its conception in sep 2008 - it now operates in all national universities. We have been involved in numerous leaflet campaigns, seminars, protests, occupations, blockades and banner drops receiving media attention and heightening general awareness. I would urge anyone interested to get involved with your local branch and encourage others to do likewise.
UCD: ucdfee@gmail.com 0857189621
TCD: trinityfee@gmail.com 0876799341
Cork: feecork@gmail.com 0861918224
Galway: feegalway@gmail.com 0861243064
UL: ulfightfees@gmail.com 0877675890
Maynooth: feemaynooth@gmail.com
NUIM – FEE2
Comments
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I really think they need to crack down hard on the nonsense campaigning.
I have mentioned on other threads about my experiences at WIT and other institutions, and the last few years here have been particularly hateful.
I work out of Auxilia with moderate funding, enough to get me by, and exactly the same as the level at which the exec officers are paid. I am held accountable for my actions, my research progress is audited, I am called to account to a government department twice a year with extensive written reports, and I am bound to stick to, and complete my work.
The X-factor tshirt slogan free sweet campaigning s**te gets a little less tolerable every year, and with the prospect of fundamental change, there needs to be a framework of accountability in place for the SU also.
I cant see any incentive for effort in the absence of genuine passion (with the notable exception of welfare as mentioned).
I am a bit sick of the petty politics though, they should be ashamed.0 -
Agree with efla, I'm all for 'Vagina Warriors' tshirts but when you're the only S.U in the country to stand by (Or eh....actually walk over and shake hands with Batty) as the Minister for Education struits across your campus you've a problem. I'd also agree that there is the prospect of fundamental change that many S.Us are missing out on, and by not moving beyond tokenistic one week campaigns they're caught in an endless cycle.
The S.Us in this country were once able to speak up (oh hai SPUC) but at the minute there's no real sign of action. The fact NUIM couldn't even live up to the tokenistic efforts of TCD is tragic.
*I'm involved with FEE, should state this.0 -
Its very much extremes with SU politics; reaction and token shouting or cowardly welcoming. A representative executive should be capable of engagement and debate, rather than resorting to either of the above.
Unfortunately I have yet to see any student organization take a reasoned, long term view.
Candidate vetting may be the way to go. Awful lot of wasters ran this year. In fairness though, I can understand the complete absence of attraction.0 -
This is a tough one, personally I think they probably should have announced it.
However I'm presuming if they had of announced it they would have sacrificed the meeting with the minister which could be argued such a stance would be more effective in putting across student concerns, possible solutions and to hear what exactly the ministers position is on the subject.Batt O’Keefe is behind the current Gov move to re-introduce third level fees – legislation that is opposed both by the majority of the student population and the nation at large.
That is a very generalised statement. Despite what PrivateEye says in the other post, the SU did organsie a bus to the student protest in Dublin but not a lot of people turned up which would suggest the opposite or apathy to the subject.
Still its hard to defend the current SU.0 -
Good post Beau, raises good arguments/questions. To reply to some of 'em....
They organised a bus in October, but none in February. Feb.4th was the national demo, on which they wanted students to get the train with the S.U. We were in the station just before them and realised we'd be quicker getting the bus. By bus, I mean Dublin Bus.
They did run one in October, true. Its up to the S.U to push the buses however, look at the huge drives made by UCC, UCD etc. to get numbers out. There was no bus for the national demo however, when even Dublin Unis ran buses.
As for the idea of meeting the Minister. Durka etc. already have. All they got out of it was a photoshoot.
This isn't USI Unis versus non-USI Unis, but an actual strong national united front. To prove that, look at this quote from the President of UL, another non USI college:
http://www.limerickblogger.ie/blog/2008/11/no-minister-will-enter-ul-unimpeded
...Theres a national movement against fees, on the S.Us part, and NUIM is not a part of it.0 -
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Well in all fairness to them they did push it through the usual medium of posters, the spoke etc. (personally I think ALOT more could be done) but they didn't get the response that you could say that this was an issue that a large number of the NUIM student body supported. Just because other Uni's are going about it in a certain way dosen't mean we have to follow suit.
However I agree there has been no clear mission statement from the SU of where they stand and what they plan to do about it. Take a look here http://www.nuimsu.com/spoke/christmas-special/batt-o-keeffe-campus every issue is given a one liner and as far as I remember the issues raised were never brought up again. Would you consider writing up an email with your complaints and sending it to Durka? You could post it up here and post up the response. That could be very interesting!
As a matter of interest what have FEE being doing to whip up a movement? I have seen the odd poster and that newspaper article on the noticeboards but nothing that would push the student body into unified action or debate. What about organising a bus for students when the student union failed? I do remember you mentioning something in a post some time back. Do you guys go to the Union Council meetings? (I've never been)0 -
As a matter of interest what have FEE being doing to whip up a movement? I have seen the odd poster and that newspaper article on the noticeboards but nothing that would push the student body into unified action or debate. What about organising a bus for students when the student union failed? I do remember you mentioning something in a post some time back. Do you guys go to the Union Council meetings? (I've never been)
all fair questions, to answer them:
1) Reponse letters from FEE to The Spoke were rarely published. A response to a letter attacking us as a movement for the approach we took to University Presidents (Hugh Brady in UCD and John Hughes in Maynooth) was never published. This meant that the space for debate was never there. This is something the Uni Paper should give.
2) We call our meetings publically, and always poster for them. It was out of one of these meetings the decision was made to take a direct action against the Dept. of Finance. (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0416/breaking31.html http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/students-occupy-dept-of-finance-offices-in-dublin-1710975.html) So in relation to what FEE have done to build a national campaign, we've constantly emphasised that we are a grassroots, open movement willing to take that form of action. It was out of people saying 'Well what are YOU'SE going to do' that that action took place. Many of the faces there that day were new. So FEE, I would hope, presented itself as an open organisation and actions like that one were our way or trying to build a national movement (After the sitdown at the Dail, the occupation of Paul Gogartys office, and the Dept. occupation, we seen growth in our numbers- I think these things are connected, saying that we don't keep track of 'membership' - we have people that go to one meeting in six and people who never miss one.
3) As for Debate, after our national conference (Attended by NUIM, NUIG, UCD, NUIG, UCC, UL, TCD) we held a discussion with a representative from t he U.S.I where we debated the way forward. FEE has written articles in Maynooth and has openly called for the debate on NUIM rejoining the USI to be re-opened. We've constantly pushed the line talking with the Fianna Fail ministers at this stage is pointless. I think a mass-campaign of direct action would get the goods. That ever-quotable line from the UL SU that "no government minister will come on this campus unimpeded" to me said it all.
After a meeting between student representatives and a senior Department official, at which the students submitted a written of list concerns, the protest ended.
As tokenistic as the ending to the action was, the action itself was worth much more than what happened in NUIM today with the SU 'voicing concerns' to the same man they already did, just last semester.
4)We've tried to engage with groups we don't feel the S.Us have, education workers in particular. We've recieved huge support from several lecturers and so on in Maynooth. We've also attended Education cuts demos about primary and secondary level education, something achknowledged on the day by the organisers. In UCD, FEE attended several SIPTU meetings of the workers. In NUIM we made efforts to get in touch with the canteen workers (...which brings us back to this 'Maynooth Experience/Community' ****e they peddle around here) but nothing came of that for various reasons (Though they constantly told us they appreciated the efforts, we would have loved something concrete to come out of this)
5) One member has gone to Union Council a few times, but as a group we've not been great on this front I admit. We'll be there tomorrow night though. I think the importance of U.C is one lesson we'll take away from all this. We're not perfect!
On the media front, FEE NUIM in particular have done well. The Sunday World, Northside People, Irish Indepdent, Irish Times and Irish Examiner all carried pieces that made reference to FEE NUIM. There's only so far that stuff can take you though.
Its very positive to see USI and SUs (UL, UCD, TCD) protesting against O' Keefe in new ways (USI occupied a Government Dept. too not too long ago, are they 'too militant' for the SU :rolleyes: ) and actually taking it to the government. Do I think FEE played any part in this change of tactics. A *small* bit, yes.
I think all in all FEE did well this year, I hope you can see from the above I'm critical of some of what we did in retrospect but all in all I think we did bring new people into the campaign nationally. Little things like you said (A bus for Feb4) should have been done, but such is life... I would argue our campaign of direct actions were our attempts to push the student body towards unified action, obviously we didn't succeed to the extent we would have liked to but I know USI and the sort see where we were coming from and I don't think our actions were a waste.
In the event of protests on campus, FEE has worked WITH SU's (See the report on the Lenihan blockade in UCD) but I think the obvious problem in Maynooth was that while FEE wouldn't be seen as some sort of militant threat in a college where the S.U themselves were willing to take direct action (UL,UCD) in a college like Maynooth were the S.U adopted a much different approach they couldn't get their head around our attitude. Nationally however, I think FEE is now on the same, or a very similar wavelength, to the 'Student Movement' I've thought this since UCD SU and USI started having sitdowns0 -
To the members of FEE. What mandate have you received from the student population. As far as I'm aware you are a small minority with little or no support on campus. How many members do you have? Have any FEE candidates succeed on getting elected to the SU or any other student bodies?0
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Hand_Of_Steel wrote: »To the members of FEE. What mandate have you received from the student population. As far as I'm aware you are a small minority with little or no support on campus. How many members do you have? Have any FEE candidates succeed on getting elected to the SU or any other student bodies?
Hey.
Basic information:About FEE
Free Education for Everyone (FEE) is a grassroots group of students and college staff, set up to fight the re-introduction of fees while campaigning for genuinely free education for all. FEE groups exist in UCD, Trinity, Maynooth, UCC, UL and NUIG. FEE activists have organised protests, occupations and blockades across the country over the past number of months.
Name of Campaign: FEE (Free Education for Everyone)
Aims of Campaign:
Lobbying or photo-stunts will not be sufficient to defeat fees. The campaign stands for the building of a mass activist grassroots student campaign to fight the attempt to bring in fees and fight for genuinely free education.
This campaign clearly starts in UCD, but fees cannot be defeated in one college alone – the campaign should aim to make connections and spread to other colleges.
Build links with college workers and school students to create the necessary movement to stop fees.
So, FEE is made up of ordinary students and open to all, I don't think people need a 'mandate' for that to be honest. We don't think you need to be in any formal position to organise against something.
FEEs numbers on campus? It varies hugely to be honest. Some meetings have 15/20 people at them, some 40. We've noticed that we've made a kind of 'friends of FEE' group too though. During the occupation of the Dept. of Finance for example, there were 4 NUIM students there who hadn't attended a meeting but supported the idea. Thats normal enough to find in all the colleges. We get people who go to one meeting, vanish, and show up again weeks later. You'll get this in any campaign obviously.
....are we a small minority? Obviously yes. Lets face it in NUIM though. YFG/ÓgraFF could hold a combined AGM in a phone-box. 40 people in a meeting room on a good day is very exciting 'round here. FEEs numbers around the country are hard to work out to be honest. We recently had a national conference with good attendance from all the Unis.
One of our ultimate aims, ironically- is to get to talk to the Minister. Not us, but the ELECTED student representatives.
The problem with yesterday is the 'meeting' was timed around a photo-shoot. Allowing Ministers on campus for such events, and having brief tokenistic chats with them is not enough. We need to get USI and reps for non-USI Unis like us to the table with the Minister and his Department.
The USI and lots of SUs have adopted real tactics recently with regards Ministers on campuses. It will help us get to the 'real' talks.
FEE is a small group of students, granted.I think it irks people they're not sitting on X board or Y board, but I don't see why thats neccesarily a bad thing. The S.Us need to lead the way on this campaign, everyone knows that.
As for elections, FEE ran in NUIG and UCD. I dont have the fingers to hand but in both cases the levels of support were high enough to warrant continuing on. FEE has put forward (and won) referendums in UL and UCD (UCD- One Day Shutdown, UL- 'What Kind of Fees do you want the SU to canvass for?' - FEE had Number 4 (No Change to system/ fund through prog. taxation) added to the list. Not surprisingly, it won.
Support for FEE on campus is quite good. We get alot of those 'meetings are very boring but fair play blahblah' type emails. We also got good solid support (and every now and then a few bob :pac: ) from lecturers and staff here and there too. This is always nice to be honest.
FEE NUIM has, media wise, managed: The Irish Times, The Irish Independent, The Irish Examiner, FM104, Northside People, Q102, Newstalk, Phantom FM and local media.
It's basically a mix-match of students (some with political backgrounds: FEE would have members of Labour Youth, Ógra SF, the Workers Solidarity Movement, Socialist Party etc. in its ranks, along with people who really wouldn't be politically minded as such and are interested in the campaign against cutbacks/fees) who wanted to start a campaign themselves.
We've made good links too. The USI came to our conference and discussed the way forward. FEE went to a number of teachers demos in recent months and talked to teachers and their unions. We also sent support (and recieved it back) to numerous trade unions and various odds and ends like the Waterford Crystal occupation too (A bloke involved with that occupation actually spoke at the last USI march remember) We've been in touch with parents groups from various schools too.
We never present ourselves as some formal voice of any University, but rather a group of individual students who have decided to mobilise amongst ourselves, much like the Coalition for Free Education before us in 2002/3.
you could be trollin', I don't know, but I hope the above answers some questions.0 -
Well done NUIM SU - the only reason you are annoyed is because you wanted to ensure that there was no possibility for a discussion and an exchange of views - what you wanted was the opportunity to throw eggs (either literally or metaphorically) and prevent the discussion.
There will be fees of some form - get your head around it, stop living in denial and get organised in a manner that accepts it and strives to ensure that the resulting structures are the fairest to the students and the parents and the wider population and ensure maximum encouragement of the under priviledged to engage in 3rd level.0 -
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Well done NUIM SU - the only reason you are annoyed is because you wanted to ensure that there was no possibility for a discussion and an exchange of views - what you wanted was the opportunity to throw eggs (either literally or metaphorically) and prevent the discussion.
A real exchange of views will have to happen formally with representation from all Student Unions over intense discussion with the Minister/Department for Education.
This won't happen on a campus, and it won't happen before some photo-shoot. He came here for that purpose on Tuesday, not to talk to our S.U.
Having such ridicolous 'talks' without informing the Student Body do nto help put the neccesary pressure on O' Keefe/his Dept. to push for real talks between Student Reps. and O' Keefe.
I wouldn't (I don't think the rest of FEE would either, either here or nationwide) oppose O' Keefe talking withthe S.Us (As in multiple S.Us) and hammering it out on the issue. That has to happen. The problem is the nature of the 'talks' NUIMSU have had with O' Keefe. He came here for a photo-op, you didn't oppose his visit and ultimately that's a failure.
As for throwing eggs?
I didn't see anyone from the USI/UL SU/TCD SU/UCD SU chuck eggs.
When FEE occupied the Dept. of Finance I can promise you we didn't throw anything around either :rolleyes:
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Note: I wouldn't use the block caps in the signs anymore. First, block caps take the human eye c. 70% longer to read. Furthermore, it looks kinda student-y, full of angst and not entirely worth taking seriously. Gotham is a good choice, though I'd keep it sans serif.0
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Note: I wouldn't use the block caps in the signs anymore. First, block caps take the human eye c. 70% longer to read. Furthermore, it looks kinda student-y, full of angst and not entirely worth taking seriously. Gotham is a good choice, though I'd keep it sans serif.
Graphic Design: Serious Business.
You're right though.
I can't over-state that I really think the S.Us (as in nationwide) will lead the way on this one next year, I actually have alot of hope NUIMSU will take a different approach to the whole thing. Ultimately we're stressing that the SUs are the ones who will hopefully get to meet the Minister/Dept. in a real and constructive way so they'll have to be at the front of the campaigns to bring them to the table. We'll wait and see!0 -
Hand_Of_Steel wrote: »To the members of FEE. What mandate have you received from the student population. As far as I'm aware you are a small minority with little or no support on campus. How many members do you have? Have any FEE candidates succeed on getting elected to the SU or any other student bodies?
Hand of Steel.
I do not know if you were present at the Hustings debate for the VP candidates. If you were, you may recall that a major issue which was by members of the audiance was that the Union Council was not an effeciant working body, and not very representative of the Student Body of Maynooth.
As for FEE candidates being elected, FEE have not actually ran any candidates in any elections in Maynooth thus far. As an organisation we are a democratic body, who do not claim to be representative of the student body, but who do not hide our aims of building a mass democratic student movement, to be mobolised in opposition of FEEs.0 -
I'm actually for college fees for everybody!
but that's something i don't want to get into here.
The majority of students are against college fees(well duh!)
Did the S.U. have a liability to inform the student body of his visit?
I think it depends on "how soon before the visit they were informed of the visit"
&
"what it was actually about"
Fianna Gael are filling everyone with a load of crap about how the government owes them something!
IRELAND IS SCREWED HELP YOUR COUNTRY OUT AND GET A FRIGGIN LOAN!0 -
PrivateEye wrote: »Graphic Design: Serious Business.
You're right though.
Actually, I take it back. Glossy paper would be better. Also, pixellated pictures. And comic sans. Incoherent sentences, can't forget them. And best put yourself on the front cover, that's always popular. And do your utmost to make it look like you clearly haven't asked a single other person what they thought of it - market research and second opinions are the downfall of every good publication.
And don't distribute it anywhere you don't feel like walking. Like THE SOUTHERN HALF OF THE COLLEGE.0 -
Interested in seeing what form the new Spoke will take on next year, was it in that magazine format the year before too? A radical change would be amazing, but unlikely.
Time'll tell.
As a graduated student you'll still be able to write bits and pieces I'd preume anyway?
....
back to the Minister:"what it was actually about"
Again can't help but feel the need to stress what basically everyone in the Student movement wants is real, vigorous debate with the Minister and his Department. The issue with these meetings is they are coming out of sham-visits. He didn't come out to meet our Exec, he came out to wear a hard-hat and have his photo taken. The S.Us have to get him to the table, in a real way, where things can be won and its not just a tokenistic 'I did something else when I was on campus before I vanished again' add-on to the visit.
Next year will be interesting. It's worth the incoming Presidents of the various unions hammering this one out, and a Student Forum (open to all students) in the University at the start of the new year where anyone in possesion of a student card can give an opinion on all this, and what steps, if any people think should be taken in the event of future visits, be it a picket/blockade/other form of action/S.U boycott of event etc.0 -
Actually, I take it back. Glossy paper would be better. Also, pixellated pictures. And comic sans. Incoherent sentences, can't forget them. And best put yourself on the front cover, that's always popular. And do your utmost to make it look like you clearly haven't asked a single other person what they thought of it - market research and second opinions are the downfall of every good publication.
And don't distribute it anywhere you don't feel like walking. Like THE SOUTHERN HALF OF THE COLLEGE.
MEEowww!:p0 -
The majority of students that oppose fees are obviously completely unaware of the realities of the situation.
Either we can pay fees and try to support our universities through the economic crisis or we can all sit around bitching and moaning until the government give in and they have to cut funding to the departments leaving us with degrees that are such poor quality you may as well use them as toilet roll.0 -
As already pointed out (maybe), the Minister was on campus primarily to turn the sod on the new NIRSA/NCG/An Foras Feasa building site (beside John Hume). A photo-op and a quick chance for him to have a few words with the 100 or so who turned up - most of whom were staff from NCG/NIRSA/An Foras Feasa and executive types like the President, Vice Presidents, PR crowd and Ministerial staff (Was There. Got T-Shirt, and morning off work
)
I didn't hear about the sekrit meeting until later, I can assume it's srs bsns though. The confirmation of attendance from the Minister's Office didn't come through until Friday I believe, which leaves it very short notice to get anything going. With the 4 gardai present, one of whom looked like he couldn't handle the stiff breeze, you wouldn't of had a hard time getting near enough to throw some eggs0 -
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The majority of students that oppose fees are obviously completely unaware of the realities of the situation.Either we can pay fees and try to support our universities through the economic crisis or we can all sit around bitching and moaning until the government give in and they have to cut funding to the departments leaving us with degrees that are such poor quality you may as well use them as toilet roll.
No, the majority of studants who oppose fees are completely aware of the situation. The current Gov having caused a speculative crisis are now ushering in a wave of cutbacks designed to make the general population pay the cost. The national debt now stands at 10% thanks to the actions of an elite minority. The people of this nation should ‘’not’’ be obliged to take on the toxic debt run up by speculators and their neo-liberal friends in FF. Indebted institutions should be declared bankrupt and the remaining assets should be nationalized. Neo Liberal policy can only be defeated via large scale social movements - the medical card being a perfect example.
As for the role of student unions, executive committees are only as good as whoever occupies them. Conservative executives are generally in favor of the comodification of education under one guise or another - however deceptively assume an ''anti fees'' stance in order to obtain passing support.0 -
The current Gov having caused a speculative crisis are now ushering in a wave of cutbacks designed to make the general population pay the cost. The people of this nation should ‘’not’’ be obliged to take on the toxic debt run up by speculators and their neo-liberal friends in FF. Indebted institutions should be declared bankrupt and the remaining assets should be nationalized. Neo Liberal policy can only be defeated via large scale social movements - the medical card being a perfect example.
So who pays the debt? The system is f*cked up but thats capitalism and greed for you, we can only learn from our mistakes. Hopefully this crisis will bring in effective regulation and boundaries to the amount of risk banks can take on.
The medical card is/was another ridiculous social welfare payment, how is it right that someone that earns over 200k gets "free" education system and health care and the rest of society has to pay for it (and 'it' not being very good either). Policies like these cripple a countries finances, especially when such vast amounts of money could be put to much more useful causes.
So do you think the government should have let Irish banks collapse? Where are your savings? Where is you or your parents mortgage held? That would be a complete disaster for the whole economy and the people within it.
I found a great blog about free fee's with which I agree with a lot.
http://www.irishelection.com/08/the-free-fees-fantasy/0 -
Actually, I take it back. Glossy paper would be better. Also, pixellated pictures. And comic sans. Incoherent sentences, can't forget them. And best put yourself on the front cover, that's always popular. And do your utmost to make it look like you clearly haven't asked a single other person what they thought of it - market research and second opinions are the downfall of every good publication.
And don't distribute it anywhere you don't feel like walking. Like THE SOUTHERN HALF OF THE COLLEGE.
lol burn0 -
Teamshadowclan wrote: »lol burn
My rage in this is unmatched.Blog linked by Beau wrote:If indeed we are serious about hooking in to a global knowledge economy, and frankly, for a small open economy, there is little option, we need to push our universities up the rankings. This does not mean that we are going to compete with Oxford or Harvard. The elite universities are a class apart and we don’t have to worry about them. What we need to do is to be as good as the plain ordinary universities in Europe or the US. I’m thinking of say matching the University of Helsinki, or Oslo, or some of the mid ranking State universities in the US. This cannot be done without vastly greater funding to build up world class facilities, to attract top academics, and to fund pioneering research programs.
Read through it. Good blog!0 -
So who pays the debt? The system is f*cked up but thats capitalism and greed for you, we can only learn from our mistakes. Hopefully this crisis will bring in effective regulation and boundaries to the amount of risk banks can take on.
Declare indebted capitalists bankrupt, (liquidate the debt) and nationalize/expropriate any remaining assets. The people of this nation should not be made pay for the criminal actions of an elite minority, they should be compensated.The medical card is/was another ridiculous social welfare payment, how is it right that someone that earns over 200k gets "free" education system and health care and the rest of society has to pay for it. Policies like these cripple a countries finances, especially when such vast amounts of money could be put to much more useful causes.
Health like education is right - not a privillige. I think healthcare should be socialized. In relation to funding, I support the implimentation of progressive taxation to the extent that the most wealthy in society will (in effect) pay their own bill ''through tax''. The wealthiest groups in this nation pay very little as it stands.So do you think the government should have let Irish banks collapse? Where are your savings? Where is you or your parents mortgage held? That would be a complete disaster for the whole economy and the people within it.
Im in the credit union but thats off topic, I advoate socialization - (not collapse). The notion that alternatives to FFs program dont exist is neo liberal propaganda at its worst. The est 21 billion in corib gas should be nationalized - the 103 million a year sub to exclusive private schools should be scrapped and the corp tax brought to the EU average.
As for that ridicules article - the term ''knowledge economy'' is little more than a buzzword designed to alleviate the fears of the naive, this economy is ****ed. As far as im aware Indian/Lithuanian computer programmers are just as well educated as Irish ones. The Celtic boom was a result of Irelands (low tax) - however eastern European states are now adopting the same approach.Wage reductions in the region of 10% arnt going to place us in competitive relation with such markets. Neo Liberal economists seem to be suggesting that we undercut third world labor rates in order to pay off the class who caused the crisis to begin with LOL.0 -
Declare indebted capitalists bankrupt, (liquidate the debt) and nationalize/expropriate any remaining assets. The people of this nation should not be made pay for the criminal actions of an elite minority, they should be compensated.
I presume you are talking about the Swedish approach? It could go either way really, in theory its not a bad solution but "the assets" aren't even close to being worth what they were paid for so the government just takes on bad debt and certainly not even close to leaving any compensation. I just don't think the government are the right people to be running the banks or the economy. Generally government run operations aren't efficient and wasteful. I know what you are going to say but thats where regulation comes in. Bashing the government for their incompetencies and then advocating socialisation in contradictory. You are probably right though in this case as the government has taken on all the debt with this guarantee anyway and nationalisation could be a way of getting a return in the future. blah blahHealth like education is right - not a privillige. I think healthcare should be socialized. In relation to funding, I support the implimentation of progressive taxation to the extent that the most wealthy in society will (in effect) pay their own bill ''through tax''. The wealthiest groups in this nation pay very little as it stands.
So nobody becomes wealthy and motivation goes out the window. You are limiting peoples choices on what they do with their well earned money. While I agree that our taxes could be increased I don't believe in this notion that the all high earners are bad and should be punished for it. I hate this idea of a welfare state, everyone has a right to health and education but lines have to be crossed somewhere. We actually have a similar viewpoint only you are forcing people to throw their money at these things and limiting choice.
This is getting off topic.As for that ridicules article - the term ''knowledge economy'' is little more than a buzzword designed to alleviate the fears of the naive, this economy is ****ed. As far as im aware Indian/Lithuanian computer programmers are just as well educated as Irish ones.0 -
Ron Paul 2012!0
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I presume you are talking about the Swedish approach? It could go either way really, in theory its not a bad solution but "the assets" aren't even close to being worth what they were paid for so the government just takes on bad debt and certainly not even close to leaving any compensation. I just don't think the government are the right people to be running the banks or the economy. Generally government run operations aren't efficient and wasteful. I know what you are going to say but thats where regulation comes in. Bashing the government for their incompetencies and then advocating socialisation in contradictory. You are probably right though in this case as the government has taken on all the debt with this guarantee anyway and nationalisation could be a way of getting a return in the future. blah blah
No, not the Sweedish approach. Im aware the assets are not worth as much in market terms, however they can be used for social projects, job creation ect. I advocate complete divorce from the debt, not ''re-configuration'' of the terms of payment.So nobody becomes wealthy and motivation goes out the window. You are limiting peoples choices on what they do with their well earned money. While I agree that our taxes could be increased I don't believe in this notion that the all high earners are bad and should be punished for it. I hate this idea of a welfare state, everyone has a right to health and education but lines have to be crossed somewhere. We actually have a similar viewpoint only you are forcing people to throw their money at these things and limiting choice.
Its the ordinary taxpayer who has ''no choice'' in relation to the payment of ''upper class'' debt. The current situation entails proposals that public assets be privatized, wages reduced and social supports removed, accumulation through dispossession, a form of upward re-distribution.Oh right, its ridiculous, why? You go on to suggest that it doesn't matter what our colleges are like because 'the knowledge economy' is BS and that cheaper labour can be found somewhere else, so why bother with uni's at all and neither the government or students will have to pay fees. Issue sorted.
The term ''knowledge economy'' is a bull**** buzzword designed to circumvent serious socio-economic analysis. The debt when broken down = 100,000 for every person in country. The Govs only solution is the implementation of neo-liberal ''structural adjustment'', austerity ect - on the premise that it will stimulate economic growth, however in (reality) all it will do is further transfer public assets into the hands of the economic elite who in turn will invest in the stock market. Furthermore, capital being mobile will go where tax's are low and labor is cheap - thats just the way it works.
If people want to change the overall condition then capital should be taken under public ownership and organized in a democratic manner, the alternative is debt bondage.0 -
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PrivateEye wrote: »
Next year will be interesting. It's worth the incoming Presidents of the various unions hammering this one out, and a Student Forum (open to all students) in the University at the start of the new year where anyone in possesion of a student card can give an opinion on all this, and what steps, if any people think should be taken in the event of future visits, be it a picket/blockade/other form of action/S.U boycott of event etc.
An SU boycott of something? I may be showing my age here but last time anyone in the SU tried to boycott something it was 6 of us against the rest of the union and the executives conduct at the time was poor. They resorted to slander, name calling, illegal accessing of information anything to prevent the student body from having a say.
This was the famous coke boycott by the way.0
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