Bobby Sand death anniversary today

turgon

Joey the lips wrote: »

Is it not fair to say the real failure was in unionists not accepting articles 2 & 3 of the irish constitution rather than assuming it was the IRA??

Those articles did claim sovereignty over Northern Ireland. This was off course something the same to the unionists as the British being in the North was to the nationalists.

Joey the lips wrote: »

Today Che Guevara and Bobby Sands certainly are martyrs for tens of millions, sealing their their commitment to help others with their lives.

Che Guevara is no martyr, he is simply a pop icon by which t-shirt companies make money. If it wasnt for that famous picture no one would know him. He helped set up socialist Cuba, which isnt my idea of free and equal state.

Joey the lips

turgon wrote: »

Those articles did claim sovereignty over Northern Ireland. This was off course something the same to the unionists as the British being in the North was to the nationalists.



Che Guevara is no martyr, he is simply a pop icon by which t-shirt companies make money. If it wasnt for that famous picture no one would know him. He helped set up socialist Cuba, which isnt my idea of free and equal state.

Turgon, Your showing poor knowledge on both counts,

Point 1 what are you saying in relation to the conversation, so what! it has no bearing, The unionists failed to sign up to a peace agreement because of the articles who cares if they have one with england. This was not what instigated sunningdale and has noting to do with the original post of bobby sands

Point 2 You clearly no nothing about che Guevara I suggest you do further research before commenting! His own doctor Dr. Elida Guarva could teach you loads on him. In fact if you really new anything about him he would have objected to the "t shirt companies"

Call me a sceptic are you just trying to follow on your poor knowledge of northern politics with your poor knowledge of prostitution!

Kev_ps3

RIP Bobby. A great Irishman

dlofnep

Bobby Sands was a brave man, who I have a great amount of respect for. He died for his principles, which takes an immense amount of courage.

nkay1985

Driseog wrote: »

I bet most of the people able to ride the high horse of moral sensibility never faced descrimination on a daily basis by a state who's sole purpose was to look after one section of society only and to deminish the rights of the other side.

Never had family members harrassed and assaulted at the hands of what were supposed to be the police force of fair law and never were burned out of their homes by loyalist mobs who wanted to banish Irish catholics, nationalists and republicans from the face of the planet. Most men of violence were a product of their environment and if a state treats sections of a society with utter contempt then why is any body with a rational brain surprised that the result is violence and misery.

The hunger strikes lead to Sinn Fein increasing their political support and the rise of Sinn Fein lead to the eventual decommisioning of the IRA and the relative peace there is today even though I doubt that was what was in mind at the time.
R.I.P. Bobby Sands

I have to say that this is very well said. Some people refuse to try to put themselves in other people's positions before judging their actions.

Madworld wrote: »

Btw where you grow up is no excuse for ur actions. i v relations from the Fatima Mansions. They would tell you the same

I can't even begin to describe the ridiculousness of that post. Comparing pre-civil rights movement Northern Ireland to the Fatima Mansions? Don't get me wrong, I know those people have it tough but the two are on completely different plains.

I'm not from the North but I have been lucky enough to meet some great people from there, the one who had the most profound effect on me being Bridie Lynch, Kevin Lynch's sister. She explained how it was growing up in that society and the morning that Kevin was arrested. I won't go into detail but let's just say that it was a traumatic experience that nobody, even a criminal if you see it that way, should be subjected to.

I'd love for some of the high horse brigade here to have a real conversation with people who went through things unimaginable to us in the South, and see if their opinions would change a little.

futurehope

Driseog said:

I bet most of the people able to ride the high horse of moral sensibility never faced descrimination on a daily basis by a state who's sole purpose was to look after one section of society only and to deminish the rights of the other side. Never had family members harrassed and assaulted at the hands of what were supposed to be the police force of fair law and never were burned out of their homes by loyalist mobs who wanted to banish Irish catholics, nationalists and republicans from the face of the planet.

Well they weren't very good at it were they, considering the Catholic population of Northern Ireland actually grew. Perhaps they should have tried harder?:rolleyes:

Most men of violence were a product of their environment and if a state treats sections of a society with utter contempt then why is any body with a rational brain surprised that the result is violence and misery.

But Sands and his ilk claimed to be slaughtering women and children to bring about a United Ireland, not to end any discrimination (perceived or otherwise).

The hunger strikes lead to Sinn Fein increasing their political support and the rise of Sinn Fein lead to the eventual decommisioning of the IRA and the relative peace there is today even though I doubt that was what was in mind at the time.

Perhaps The IRA should just not have started in the first place and the outcome would have been the same (less 3500 corpses).

R.I.P. Bobby Sands

:rolleyes:

futurehope

Joey the lips wrote: »

Steve McQueen persuaded us, engaged our eyes, our emotions, our heads, our hearts. This is what happened! Brits behaving like Nazis. They stirred deep thoughts within us. But these weren’t Nazis. They were our own kind with a capacity for behaving like Nazis. McQueen convinced us this movie was not a movie. It was the real thing.

Nazis? If The Brits were Nazis, they'd have put the entire Catholic population of Northern Ireland in gas ovens. The only Nazis involved were Bobby and his pals.

dlofnep

futurehope wrote: »

Well they weren't very good at it were they, considering the Catholic population of Northern Ireland actually grew. Perhaps they should have tried harder?:rolleyes:

It's called reproduction.

futurehope wrote: »

But Sands and his ilk claimed to be slaughtering women and children to bring about a United Ireland, not to end any discrimination (perceived or otherwise).

No they didn't. They wanted to remove British rule from Ireland, so that all the nonsense that went with it (civil inequality, collusion, etc..) would be gone.

futurehope wrote: »

Perhaps The IRA should just not have started in the first place and the outcome would have been the same (less 3500 corpses).

Perhaps Britain should not have invaded Ireland in the first place? Perhaps the RUC should not have attacked the catholic/nationalist population in the first place? Perhaps the British state shouldn't have infringed upon the civil liberties of the catholic population in the first place? The IRA are a product of an environment that Britain created.

futurehope wrote: »

:rolleyes:

We can all roll our eyes. :rolleyes:

Nodin

futurehope wrote: »

Well they weren't very good at it were they, considering the Catholic population of Northern Ireland actually grew. Perhaps they should have tried harder?

A trite remark that evades the point.

futurehope wrote: »

But Sands and his ilk claimed to be slaughtering women and children to bring about a United Ireland, not to end any discrimination (perceived or otherwise).

And why, precisely, did they find the idea of a united Ireland so appealing?

IIMII

sFitz wrote: »

I'm sure that Bobby sands and all true Republicans didn't give a sh*t about this Celtic vs Rangers, protestant vs catholic bullsh*t.

I hate all the religious and sectarian crap and it seems much worse in lowlands Scotland than anywhere in Ireland. Can't believe that so many people go out of their way to express themselves via two corporate entities (Celtic & Rangers). No time for either club, and whatever about seeing their jerseys in Scotland, I haven't clue why people here wear them. Whilst it might I suppose marginally make sense for loyalists to wear the Rangers gear, I really can't see the relevance of Celtic or their corporate jersey to Ireland.

Sands is a hero though.

futurehope

nkay1985 wrote: »

I'm not from the North but I have been lucky enough to meet some great people from there, the one who had the most profound effect on me being Bridie Lynch, Kevin Lynch's sister. She explained how it was growing up in that society and the morning that Kevin was arrested. I won't go into detail but let's just say that it was a traumatic experience that nobody, even a criminal if you see it that way, should be subjected to.

Hilarious. Apparently we should be concerned about the "traumatic experience" endured by a clown who belonged to an organisation that murdered people whilst they sang hymns in church:


http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Darkley-massacre--39One-of.4712358.jp

BEYOND BELIEF.

dlofnep

futurehope wrote: »

Hilarious. Apparently we should be concerned about the "traumatic experience" endured by a clown who belonged to an organisation that murdered people whilst they sang hymns in church:


http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Darkley-massacre--39One-of.4712358.jp

BEYOND BELIEF.

Of course we should. But what has that got to do with Bobby Sands?

Joey the lips

Futurehope it does not take a person to figure when going through your previous posts that your roll is to be critical not actually add to any conversation just be critical, a bit like ian paisley i suppose.

You blamed the IRA for bringing down sunningdale and I asked you how. I showed you it was in fact the unionists but you have not commented on this?

You mission seems to be to knock every post! Get involved and add content!!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

nkay1985

futurehope wrote: »

Hilarious. Apparently we should be concerned about the "traumatic experience" endured by a clown who belonged to an organisation that murdered people whilst they sang hymns in church:


http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Darkley-massacre--39One-of.4712358.jp

BEYOND BELIEF.

That incident took place 3 years after Kevin Lynch died so I fail to see the relevance.

And I don't support the INLA but the reality is that he was a suspect in a crime at the time of his arrest. Innocent until proven guilty - ever heard of that? You can't just decide that one person has rights and the other doesn't.

And you're also overlooking the wider aspect of my statement. You didn't live through those times and I know for sure that you've never met anyone who has so you're in no position to understand what drove them to do what they did.

grahamo

futurehope wrote: »

Nazis? If The Brits were Nazis, they'd have put the entire Catholic population of Northern Ireland in gas ovens. The only Nazis involved were Bobby and his pals.

Thats a ridiculous statement!
You can say what you like about Bobby Sands but the man was willing to give his life for what he believed in. How many on here would be willing to do that? Not many I suspect

Happy Monday

grahamo wrote: »

Thats a ridiculous statement!
You can say what you like about Bobby Sands but the man was willing to give his life for what he believed in. How many on here would be willing to do that? Not many I suspect

Bobby Sands was also willing to take the lives of innocent Irish Protestants at his commander's will. His actions and those of the IRA ensured that the North will remain British for many decades to come.
And isn't interesting how angry Northerners who talked about 'Brits out' and condemened anyone who talked of compromise now walk past Carson's statue and under the Union flag to take their seats in the exercise of British democracy and under the Queen's direction.

Fratton Fred

grahamo wrote: »

Thats a ridiculous statement!
You can say what you like about Bobby Sands but the man was willing to give his life for what he believed in. How many on here would be willing to do that? Not many I suspect

so was Mohamed Atta

Mr. Incognito

Reproduced from my blog

Today is the 28th anniversary of Bobby Sands death. One year longer than he lived. I hadn't given it much thought at all until I clicked on a link in Boards and found my way to the lyrics of “ Back home in Derry”. Bobby Sands wrote that. I hadn't known until today. Maybe music draws on my heart more than politics on my mind but it made me re-examine my views or rather my lack of them on Bobby Sands.

Bobby Sands has become an icon. He is a lot of things to a lot of people. A terrorist, a poet, a criminal, an elected representative, a martyr, a freedom fighter, a fanatical political kamikaze breaking onto the bough of Thatcher's conservative government, but behind it all when you whittle away the romanticism, Bobby Sands was a person. A fellow human being who wrote that beautiful mournful lament and laid down his life for the courage of his convictions in the most agonising of ways. That takes a strength of will few of us could contemplate.

I wasn't even born when Bobby and his fellow nine dead hunger strikers took up their protest for political prisoner status. Their views seem as alien to me now as the Catholic civil rights repressions in the North that preceded it. Suffice to say they were a product of their interactions with their environment in much the same way their environment was to become a product of their actions. I'm not going into a subjective debate on the rights and wrongs, the scoring system in blood that has raged in the North since 1969. I'm simply not qualified. I'm trying to deduce, when they dust down the annuals of history what effect Bobby and his fellow hunger strikers had on the North and the rest of us that share this island.

The immediate after effect of Bobby Sands and his fellow prisoner's deaths was polorisation. Riots, murders and anarchy reigned. Divisions were drawn that still exist to this day. However, what is more subtle and also more pertinent to this day is the democratic election of Bobby Sands to Westminster as MP for Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Bobby's election gave the IRA a new weapon in the north. A democratic mandate. It is this weapon that has eventually usurped the rest of their arsenal and has give hope and peace to the North. It was in Bobby's election that many of the Nationalists cut their teeth in politics and they've been grinding them in a fury ever since.

I'm drawn back to the lyrics of his lament. The story of the 1803 rising. Of prisoners brought to Van Halen's land in chains and lamenting their home. There are many that chose to leave the North during the troubles, but to many, it was, and is, for all its flaws, home. Home is a word that resonates in the heart greater than all others. I think of Bobby Sands writing those lyrics and contemplating leaving it behind. Leaving Derry for England to his young wife and son, but he chose to stay, and eventually, he chose to die. It is impossible to know what he would have made of the consequences of his actions. Only Bobby Sands would know that, but the political mediation infrastructure that was seeded in his election eventually bore fruit to the current assembly and brought hope to the North. It is a legacy few of us could have accomplished in 27 short years.

R.I.P

Nodin

Happy Monday wrote: »

And isn't interesting how angry Northerners who talked about 'Brits out' and condemened anyone who talked of compromise now walk past Carson's statue and under the Union flag to take their seats in the exercise of British democracy and under the Queen's direction.

So you'd be happier if they kept up the armed campaign then?

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so was Mohamed Atta

So self sacrifice to any cause is now worthless because of Mr Atta? Fascinating.

Does this mean that the VC awarded to Corporal Sidney Bates for action against the Germans in 1944 is invalid, morally wrong, or what, exactly? Feel free to start a thread with your thoughts on the matter.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

So self sacrifice to any cause is now worthless because of Mr Atta? Fascinating.

Does this mean that the VC awarded to Corporal Sidney Bates for action against the Germans in 1944 is invalid, morally wrong, or what, exactly? Feel free to start a thread with your thoughts on the matter.

Corporal Sydney Bates didn't believe in killing innocent people to further his cause though did he. Bobby Sands was a terrorist, so was Mohamed Atta.

No need for another thread, but thanks for the offer.

Acacia

junder wrote: »

and if the provies were not blowing people up etc etc yes we could go on all day. Personely i will be commerating bobby sands death with a large slap up meal. "Would you like a pasty supper booby sands".

How original and witty to post the same crap Bobby Sands joke that's been doing the rounds for the past twenty eight years. You must be proud.

LordSutch

The whole hunger strike episode was a dark, dank, black & dirty chapter in this islands history, it was deliberately created by the Republican movement as a tool in which to exert pressure on Mrs Thatcher, it was the lowest form of leverage to get ones way, and in a way it did as was intended, but with the most cruel & depressing results. In a way, the hunger strikes were the first steps for Adams/McGuinness & Co out of the Republican swamplands which led to where Marty & his reformed republican politicians (now bypeds) engage by rational & political means, instead of their former measures which included all forms of terror from the A>Z book of Terrorism.

P.S. Sands & Co were deliberately sacrificed & used as part of Adams bigger plan, not an anniversary to remember, but rather one to forget & bury for good along with the black flags, black berets, black shirts, & black armbands.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Corporal ...(.....)..the offer.

But Bobby Sands didn't die killing innocent people, or anyone else for that matter. He laid his life down for a cause. Now you might argue that the IRA killed innocent people, and Sands was in the IRA, however Bates was in the British Army, and I do believe that carpet bombing as practised by 'Bomber' Harris was not overly worried about civillian casualties.....

You just grabbed a random boogieman and threw it to imply 'guilt' by association without thinking it through.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

But Bobby Sands didn't die killing innocent people, or anyone else for that matter. He laid his life down for a cause. Now you might argue that the IRA killed innocent people, and Sands was in the IRA, however Bates was in the British Army, and I do believe that carpet bombing as practised by 'Bomber' Harris was not overly worried about civillian casualties.....

You just grabbed a random boogieman and threw it to imply 'guilt' by association without thinking it through.

guilt by association? Sands was convicted of carrying guns? the fact he had the decency to kill himself before killing others is the only difference between him and any other terrorist.

Come up with all the whataboutery you like, he was a member of the IRA and was prepared to murder innocent people. As Camelot says, he was sacrificed by the IRA just as they would sacrifice any other living person, but they used his death to gain political mileage. He was a pawn, not a hero.

Hagar

Bobby Sands RIP

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

guilt by association? Sands was convicted of carrying guns? the fact he had the decency to kill himself before killing others is the only difference between him and any other terrorist.

Ahhh yes, the old emotional tirades...... The guilt by association refers to your use of a 9/11 Hijacker to imply that dying for a cause was somehow ignoble, they being the more acceptable 'Godwins' in threads of this sort.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Come up with all the whataboutery you like,.

I'm afraid its you thats indulging in whataboutery. By your logic if he's guilty, so is Corporal Bates, and indeed many others who've sacrificed themselves for a multitude of causes over the centuries.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

he was a member of the IRA and was prepared to murder innocent people. ,.

Was he? His writings have been published and I don't recall the "murder" of "innocent people" to be amongst his aims. Do you have any quotes or sources to back that up?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

He was a pawn, not a hero.

Again, another revelation. According to what I've read on the subject over the years, Bobby Sands knew exactly what he was doing, and the consequences. As he was in the IRA, and Officer commanding in the H-Block at the time, the idea he was a "pawn" is somewhat laughable.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

Ahhh yes, the old emotional tirades...... The guilt by association refers to your use of a 9/11 Hijacker to imply that dying for a cause was somehow ignoble, they being the more acceptable 'Godwins' in threads of this sort.

There is nothing wrong with dying for a cause, people are perfectly entitled to do that and history is full of noble people who have died for their beliefs. Where I have a problem is where people are prepared to let other people die on their behalf for their cause.

Nodin wrote: »

I'm afraid its you thats indulging in whataboutery. By your logic if he's guilty, so is Corporal Bates, and indeed many others who've sacrificed themselves for a multitude of causes over the centuries.

how the hell do you get that from what i have said? talk about a strawman arguement :rolleyes:

Nodin wrote: »

Was he? His writings have been published and I don't recall the "murder" of "innocent people" to be amongst his aims. Do you have any quotes or sources to back that up?

He was officer commanding of the prisoners in Long Kesh, had previously been arrested for fire arms offences, received a full paramilitary funeral yet he was only a poet

give me a break :rolleyes:

Nodin wrote: »

Again, another revelation. According to what I've read on the subject over the years, Bobby Sands knew exactly what he was doing, and the consequences. As he was in the IRA, and Officer commanding in the H-Block at the time, the idea he was a "pawn" is somewhat laughable.

so if he wasn't a pawn what was he? a fully paid up member of a terrorist organisation then, so the comparison to Mohamed Atta is a fair one, except maybe that Atta was more than likely more of a pawn.

Can'tseeme

Can'tseeme wrote: »

...and if the north wasn't a bitter sectarian hell hole for nationalists, we may not have seen young men and women flooding the ranks of the IRA. We could go on all day jimmmy...

there is fighting a war and then there is blowing up shopping centers

futurehope

nkay1985 said:

That incident took place 3 years after Kevin Lynch died so I fail to see the relevance.

The relevance is that he belonged to the same organisation that carried out those sickening sectarian murders, namely The INLA. The INLA existed for one reason and one reason only, to kill people in pursuit of it's political goals. Mr Lynch will obviously have been aware of that when he joined The INLA.

And I don't support the INLA but the reality is that he was a suspect in a crime at the time of his arrest. Innocent until proven guilty - ever heard of that? You can't just decide that one person has rights and the other doesn't.

Now I'm really going to embarrass you, I'm sorry but you've made it all too easy:

The INLA claimed Lynch as a member:

http://www.irsm.org/fallen/lynch/

Here's a picture of his INLA funeral:

http://www.irsm.org/fallen/lynch/kevin_lynch_funeral.html

In other words he was guilty. :rolleyes:

And you're also overlooking the wider aspect of my statement. You didn't live through those times and I know for sure that you've never met anyone who has so you're in no position to understand what drove them to do what they did.

Oh, I'm afraid I did live through 'those times' and I've met all sorts of people who were involved in one capacity or the other. :rolleyes: