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Bobby Sand death anniversary today

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    #62
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    . Where I have a problem is where people are prepared to let other people die on their behalf for their cause..

    As he himself was the first to die, its hardly applicable here, is it.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    .
    how the hell do you get that from what i have said? talk about a strawman arguement ..

    The 9/11 Hijacker? No, more what I outlined earlier.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    .
    He was officer commanding of the prisoners in Long Kesh, had previously been arrested for fire arms offences, received a full paramilitary funeral yet he was only a poet ..

    I never mentioned poetry, or said that he was "only" anything. You stated that he "was prepared to murder innocent people." I just asked for backup to the statement that those were his aims.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    .
    so if he wasn't a pawn what was he? a fully paid up member of a terrorist organisation then,..

    He was a volunteer, unless you have information to the contrary....
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    .
    so the comparison to Mohamed Atta is a fair one, .

    Well, as Bobby Sands didn't actually kill anyone in his protest, no, its not really apt.


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    #63
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    futurehope wrote: »
    The relevance is that he belonged to the same organisation that carried out those sickening sectarian murders, namely The INLA. The INLA existed for one reason and one reason only, to kill people in pursuit of it's political goals. Mr Lynch will obviously have been aware of that when he joined The INLA.

    'The <US military> carried out the <My Lai massacre>. The <US army> exists to kill people in pursuit of <US victory>. All <US soldiers> are aware of that when they join.'

    You can use that one with the RUC, UDR, Russians, Chinese.....Feel free to c&p to discussion of choice.


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    #64
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    Nodin wrote: »
    'The <US military> carried out the <My Lai massacre>. The <US army> exists to kill people in pursuit of <US victory>. All <US soldiers> are aware of that when they join.'

    You can use that one with the RUC, UDR, Russians, Chinese.....Feel free to c&p to discussion of choice.

    You are completely correct as regards The US, Russian and Chinese armies.

    You are, of course, completely wrong as regards The UDR and RUC.

    Killed by UDR: 8 people
    Killed by RUC: 55 people

    If the purpose of The UDR and RUC was to kill people, they didn't make a very good job of it did they? Looks to me like their purpose must have been something completely different. :confused:


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    #65
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    I don't suppose the mods can make a sub-forum for armchair republicans? This really is getting tiresome.


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    #66
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Nodin wrote: »
    As he himself was the first to die, its hardly applicable here, is it.

    The 9/11 Hijacker? No, more what I outlined earlier.

    I never mentioned poetry, or said that he was "only" anything. You stated that he "was prepared to murder innocent people." I just asked for backup to the statement that those were his aims.

    He was a volunteer, unless you have information to the contrary....

    Well, as Bobby Sands didn't actually kill anyone in his protest, no, its not really apt.

    So he was a volunteer in an organisation that quite happily murdered innocent people and you want me to provide evidence that he was prepared to kill people? you have all but stated that yourself already.

    Bobby Sands was a terrorist. the fact he chose to starve himself to death does not make him any less of a terrorist, it just means that it was decided his death served the cause better than the death of someone else. He didn't strive for peace, he didn't spend his life serving the community or try8ng to bridge the divide, he chose to join an organisation that kills.

    There are scores of people in NI who deserve the title "Hero" and Bobby Sands isn't one of them.


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    #67
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    futurehope wrote: »
    You are (....)fferent. :confused:

    A hint - Begins with a "C" (More than four letters).


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    #68
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    There are scores of people in NI who deserve the title "Hero" and Bobby Sands isn't one of them.
    Yeah and lets guess, these heroes all serve in the British army? As a matter of interest, do you know of any non-British Army or British/Loyalist heroes?


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    #69
    Can'tseeme
    Registered Users Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Can'tseeme


    jimmmy wrote: »
    It does not matter...as another poster wrote if Sands and his colleagues had stuck to poetry then there'd have been less women and children scraped up of the roads of Ulster into plastic bags.

    That's the thing jimmmy it won't matter to you because your unwilling to even accept the persecution on nationalists by the unionist state.

    As I said om this forum before. We've a horrible bloody history and in particular from Gusty Spence and UVF in 1966 till the IRA ceasefires. The IRA did many terrible things, so did the RUC, the loyalists, the Unionists, the state forces and the two governments. We need to look at our history honestly and acknowledge that hurt was caused by all those groups and forces to ALL communities and the governments of those times have their responsibilities iin it aswell.


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    #70
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    IIMII wrote: »
    Yeah and lets guess, these heroes all serve in the British army? As a matter of interest, do you know of any non-British Army or British/Loyalist heroes?

    Gordon Wilson springs to mind straight away.

    And stop judging me by your own standards, it makes you look petty.


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    #71
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    :rolleyes:


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    #72
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    IIMII wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    if that is for Gordon Wilson, then that is one of the saddest posts this forum has seen.


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    #73
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    No, it's just for you, honey


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    #74
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    So he was a volunteer in an organisation that quite happily murdered innocent people.

    "happily"? News to me.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    and you want me to provide evidence that he was prepared to kill people? you have all but stated that yourself already..

    No, I want you to provide evidence that his raison d'etre was to 'kill innocent people', as you seem to be implying.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Bobby Sands was a terrorist. ..

    Depending on how you look at it, and what way you define that word. He was most certainly a brave individual who had strength in his convictions.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    , it just means that it was decided his death served the cause better than the death of someone else. ..

    "it was decided"? You just said he "chose" the hunger strike. Are you back to trying to imply he was forced again.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    He didn't strive for peace,..

    He did, in his own way.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    he chose to join an organisation that kills.,..

    This may come as a suprise, but anyone from anyside joining an armed force does the same thing. Honestly. Thats what the arms are for.


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    #75
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Soldie wrote: »
    I don't suppose the mods can make a sub-forum for armchair republicans? This really is getting tiresome.

    As long as they're joined there by the lounge loyalists, upright unionists etc, fair enough. 'Egalite' and all that.


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    #76
    Can'tseeme
    Registered Users Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Can'tseeme


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    So he was a volunteer in an organisation that quite happily murdered innocent people and you want me to provide evidence that he was prepared to kill people? you have all but stated that yourself already.

    Bobby Sands was a terrorist. the fact he chose to starve himself to death does not make him any less of a terrorist, it just means that it was decided his death served the cause better than the death of someone else. He didn't strive for peace, he didn't spend his life serving the community or try8ng to bridge the divide, he chose to join an organisation that kills.

    There are scores of people in NI who deserve the title "Hero" and Bobby Sands isn't one of them.

    In your opinion, was Michael Collins a hero or terrorist? Was Nelson Mandela a hero or terrorist?


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    #77
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Nodin wrote: »
    "happily"? News to me.
    ok, they did it with tears in their eyes, but they still did it.
    Nodin wrote: »
    No, I want you to provide evidence that his raison d'etre was to 'kill innocent people', as you seem to be implying.
    oh please, a peadophiles reason for being isn't to abuse children, but they are still a peado.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Depending on how you look at it, and what way you define that word. He was most certainly a brave individual who had strength in his convictions.
    What are you saying, that the ITA wasn't a terrorist organisation? are you trying to justify the murder of innocent people?

    Lots of brave people have the strength of conviction he did, most of them don't pick up guns in support of killing innocents and most don't decide to kill themselves

    Nodin wrote: »
    "it was decided"? You just said he "chose" the hunger strike. Are you back to trying to imply he was forced again.
    who knows, but if the IRA didn't think his death would serve a purpose then they would have stopped it rather than let him die like they did his fellow hunger strikers.


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    #78
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    Can'tseeme wrote: »

    As I said om this forum before. We've a horrible bloody history and in particular from Gusty Spence and UVF in 1966 till the IRA ceasefires. The IRA did many terrible things, so did the RUC, the loyalists, the Unionists, the state forces and the two governments. We need to look at our history honestly and acknowledge that hurt was caused by all those groups and forces to ALL communities and the governments of those times have their responsibilities iin it aswell.

    I think it's quite easy to see where the main responsibility lies. Just check out who killed the most people. Crude but effective (as The IRA probably said about Kingsmill).

    Nice attempt at blaring the waters though. ;)


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    #79
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    Real Irish Republicans always got excommunicated. Physical force nationalists on the other hand....the holy blesséd sacrificial martyrdom of our Lord always springs to mind.


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    #80
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Can'tseeme wrote: »
    In your opinion, was Michael Collins a hero or terrorist? Was Nelson Mandela a hero or terrorist?

    Different wars and different eras.

    Michael collins i would not call a terrorist mainly because he didn't deliberately target areas where civilians were massed.

    Mandela on the other hand, the jury is still out as far as i am concerned. In his defence he did renounce violence and while he was in charge of the military wing their main objective was not to kill people.


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    #81
    ilkhanid
    Registered Users Posts: 929 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    "So self sacrifice to any cause is now worthless because of Mr Atta? "

    Sacrificing your life for a cause is a morally neutral activity. What Bobby Sands did makes him neither a hero or a villian. You can have the courage of your convictions and be willing to give your life for a good cause or an evil one, like Iraqi suicide bombers. But history will judge.


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    #82
    Can'tseeme
    Registered Users Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Can'tseeme


    futurehope wrote: »
    I think it's quite easy to see where the main responsibility lies. Just check out who killed the most people. Crude but effective (as The IRA probably said about Kingsmill).

    Nice attempt at blaring the waters though. ;)

    Feck me futurehope, that is a crude and irresponsible way to look at. 4582 people killed by the forces/governments/organisations/groups mentioned. All of it wrong and all of it caused alot of hurt. Nothing blared about it.

    Kingsmill was shocking and completely wrong. I view held by many republicans.


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    #83
    Can'tseeme
    Registered Users Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Can'tseeme


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Different wars and different eras.

    Michael collins i would not call a terrorist mainly because he didn't deliberately target areas where civilians were massed.

    Mandela on the other hand, the jury is still out as far as i am concerned. In his defence he did renounce violence and while he was in charge of the military wing their main objective was not to kill people.

    But did kill civilians.


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    #84
    MavisDavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭MavisDavis


    I couldn't care less if it's Bobby Sands' anything.


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    #85
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,904 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    sFitz wrote: »
    Can I please ask you, what do Celtic football (English game btw) club have to do with Irish Republicanism?. I'm sure that Bobby sands and all true Republicans didn't give a sh*t about this Celtic vs Rangers, protestant vs catholic bullsh*t.


    Who mentioned Celtic?/. What are you on about?


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    #86
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    MavisDavis wrote: »
    I couldn't care less if it's Bobby Sands' anything.


    Well then you clearly dont understand your mind especially as you took the time to comment!:D


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    #87
    MavisDavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭MavisDavis


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    Well then you clearly dont understand your mind especially as you took the time to comment!:D

    I'm commenting on the lack of importance I feel anything to do with Bobby Sands has. I do not think he contributed anything to Ireland.


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    #88
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,507 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    These threads all turn out the same


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    #89
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,507 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Different wars and different eras.

    explain please


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    #90
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    MavisDavis wrote: »
    I'm commenting on the lack of importance I feel anything to do with Bobby Sands has. I do not think he contributed anything to Ireland.

    Which translates into I know nothing about bobby sands so I am not in a position to comment. He contributed a lot and considering he won a seat in the dail while fighting his campagn in prision I would say this was a brilliant achievement considering most fianna fail canidates outside should be in prision. He was a statesman who lived with years of sectarian hatred, forced out of a couchmans apprentaship, But as you say you know nothing. Thank you for taking the time to contribute to nothing! You contrabution is noted!

    rarnes1 wrote: »
    These threads all turn out the same


    You right rarnes and I think you would agee that as an irish nation we seem to have nothing but contempt for where we come from, I started the same thread on another forum and the political comment is brilliant. Would I share it! I dare not. Most of the people here are probably readers of kevin myers or pro union which means I will scare the [EMAIL="sh@t"]sh@t[/EMAIL] out of them

    For you who contributed positivly or even argued with sense I commend you. For all others

    Go back to the knitting. You will have some wolly muffs in no time. Then maybe you can block out the world as well. :rolleyes:


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    #91
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Different wars and different eras.

    Do explain the differences. I'm all ears.


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