Bobby Sand death anniversary today

Victor

Can someone have the decency of spelling the guy's name right?

Poor, poor Tommy Sands.

Happy Monday

Joey the lips wrote: »

Its just a shame you did not understand your own party principles when you commented, then again if i were you I would deny them as well.

Well done Ian!

Joey - what are you on sunshine....I can't stand anything you say!
The IRA represented a minority of nationalist opinion in the North.
Political agitation from the early 1970s would have brought them much closer to a United Ireland than murdering innocents (our own Garda Jerry McCabe among them). They now recognise this at last.

Joey the lips

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Actual need lasted from 1968-73 max and there was already an IRA. The Rosary Brigades formed to defend their communities fair enough, and were even armed by Dublin, but when they started killing members of their community by shooting and indiscriminate bomb-blast they lost all credibility in any claim to be Defenders.

Coonassa the IRA at the time your refere to is Pat Rabbits old gang and what they failed to do was bring the true extent of the discrimination into the eyes of those in the republic. The official IRA would have outlived and out classed the provisionals if they had of listened to the people at the time. This is not a ranting but a fact...

And if you believe that the historic rise in support for the IRA at the death of bobby sands in the 1980-81 hunger strike, 10 years after the times you mention was a result of fear and intimidation by the IRA you are really showing lack of knowledge.

There is no doubt in my mind that the british govt done more for recruiitment in the IRA than the IRA could have ever done, ie

The Hunger Strike
The Bermingham 6
The Guildford 4
The Maguire family
Bloody sunday
The Shankill Butchers...

The list goes on...... The IRA existed becuase the british goverment created the need for protection of nationalists.

But again I seem to be getting into daft discussion with people who are lead by the media instead of truly researching the facts.

Why is this still a discussion about the IRA and not about a truly remarkable man, bobby sands?????

Is it because nobody is interested in bob? yes I reckon so. They would rather re-hash and re-hash old crap and bore the brains of those who might actually be interested.

But what they are actually achieving is giving credability to the provisional IRA and no doubt adding to the reputation of the CIRA and RIRA

Well done, keep up the good work!:rolleyes:

O'Coonassa

Joey the lips wrote: »

And if you believe that the historic rise in support for the IRA at the death of bobby sands in the 1980-81 hunger strike, 10 years after the times you mention was a result of fear and intimidation by the IRA you are really showing lack of knowledge.

Nope. It was pure PH Pearse strategy on the part of the Shinners. Holy Roman Catholics love a mass-going martyr. 10 of them dying slowly at the hands of Thatcher could only ever have one result in this retarded country.

Nodin

futurehope wrote: »

The Army (.....) to smithereens. :rolleyes:

All of you're treating of in a way which is now completely off topic. I'd suggest starting a thread 'Causes of NI conflict'.

Nodin

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Nope. It was pure PH Pearse strategy on the part of the Shinners. Holy Roman Catholics love a mass-going martyr. 10 of them dying slowly at the hands of Thatcher could only ever have one result in this retarded country.

Sands was hardly an obedient son of the church, as his diary shows. Nor is it a form of protest limited to 'Holy Catholic' Ireland.

Joey the lips

Happy Monday wrote: »

Joey - what are you on sunshine....I can't stand anything you say!
The IRA represented a minority of nationalist opinion in the North.
Political agitation from the early 1970s would have brought them much closer to a United Ireland than murdering innocents (our own Garda Jerry McCabe among them). They now recognise this at last.

You cant stand or cant understand! The murder of gerry mccabe was very sad I agree even more so because it was one of our own and if the IRA represented the minority of nationalists we would not be having this conversation. Although if your right on minority watch out because thats what caused the existance of CIRA and RIRA. Are we not learning by history? Are we truly Iggnorant!

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Nope. It was pure PH Pearse strategy on the part of the Shinners. Holy Roman Catholics love a mass-going martyr. 10 of them dying slowly at the hands of Thatcher could only ever have one result in this retarded country.

Good, your showing poor knowledge of the event and deflecting from what I said to support your comments!

Nodin wrote: »

All of you're treating of in a way which is now completely off topic. I'd suggest starting a thread 'Causes of NI conflict'.

I said that ages ago noddin but it seems that we have people on here who would rather harp on about the IRA this and the IRA that. We even had someone who new nothing about Bobby sands but decided to tell us what she thought of him

So i agree its gotten daft..... I will learn. How can I expect someone who does not care about there neighbour to care about what goes on 150 miles up the road.

My apologies noddin for getting this daft!

O'Coonassa

Nodin wrote: »

Sands was hardly an obedient son of the church, as his diary shows. Nor is it a form of protest limited to 'Holy Catholic' Ireland.

Sure where else was the protest but in Ireland? He was obedient enough to go to mass every week wasn't he?

bill_ashmount

Rest In Peace.

Go n-éirí an bóthar leat.

Joey the lips

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Rest In Peace.

Go n-éirí an bóthar leat.

Maith on fear - Níor bhris focal maith fiacail riamh

Kev_ps3

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Nope. It was pure PH Pearse strategy on the part of the Shinners. Holy Roman Catholics love a mass-going martyr. 10 of them dying slowly at the hands of Thatcher could only ever have one result in this retarded country.

"This retarded country"? Great thing to say on an Irish forum. Where are you from? Let me guess..

Nodin

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Sure where else was the protest but in Ireland

That form of protest is not unique to Ireland, is what I'm saying.

O'Coonassa wrote: »

He was obedient enough to go to mass every week wasn't he?

....so does Marty McGuinness, a man who is pro gay-marriage. Catholics are not a hive mind, you know.

O'Coonassa

Nodin wrote: »

Catholics are not a hive mind, you know.

Ah sure even those of us who escape have the psychology.

O'Coonassa

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

"This retarded country"? Great thing to say on an Irish forum. Where are you from? Let me guess..

I'm from here, still waiting for the secular Republic that Wolfe Tone promised.

Joey the lips

O'Coonassa wrote: »

I'm from here, still waiting for the secular Republic that Wolfe Tone promised.

Here we go another daft poster like future hope dont go religious with this man he just gets sarky and starts to loose the point! Its amazing how these threads get hijacked by One line smart @rse people who fail to contribute anything but loose the interest of the general population...Yawn Yawn

Fratton Fred

Joey the lips wrote: »

Its amazing how a political discussion about 10 men who had far reaching consequences on Irish politics and the future of the northern struggle can be discussed in such fashion, rather than analyise and study there achievements and political failures this thread has developed into a slagging match.

The IRA came about because of a need and thomas sitting on his [EMAIL="a@se"]a@se[/EMAIL] filling in his avon order sheet in waterford will never understand or care how sean in belfast was constantly getting his windows put in and his children threatened going to school. He will never care either, How could thomas care about someone 150 miles away when he does not care about his next door neighbour. As far as thomas is concearned Sean can go to hell. But a true nationalist regardsless of his politics would not have setteled for this.

However a group of men like Joe Cahill Bobby sands and Martin Doherty( Who gave his life protecting all in Window Scanlons against a UVF [EMAIL="b@mb"]b@mb[/EMAIL] plot) decided enough was enough. What thomas fails to see if these lads did not have the support of there community they would have never lasted how long they did.

So when we all sit here and knock the IRA what we fail to see is "Our opinion does not matter" there support was written in there formation. You catch the drift. They formed because of a need and hence they disbanded because of a lack of need.

Its just a shame that those who can not analyise politics for what it is did not activly discuss this. Its also a shame that those who are just out to contribute nothing but moaning and insults cant shut up to let a real discussion develop. I shall leave the last word to Bobby

"They have nothing in their entire imperial arsenel that can break the spirit of one irish man who does not want to be broken"

Very nice romantic view of the IRA there and I can understand that people want to defend their community from attacks, which is why I, as an Englishman, consider all members of the IRA and their supporters scum and will never lose any sleep over a few that decide to do us all a favour by killing themselves.

Joey the lips

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Very nice romantic view of the IRA there and I can understand that people want to defend their community from attacks, which is why I, as an Englishman, consider all members of the IRA and their supporters scum and will never lose any sleep over a few that decide to do us all a favour by killing themselves.

It is isnt it! Thank you for revealing yours. at least your honest! Its just a pity your collegues in the ulster workers council did not think a little more before they did what they did and the conditions for the IRA to flourish would not have existed then perhaps me and you would be dealing in sterling or euro and saying good morning every day.

You know I may be a nationalist but i equally respect the union I just wish it was practised across the water instead of in my back yard.

But then again under the good friday agreement we are ment to forgive and forget but judging here its the IRA v'S everybody else rather than an open political look at Roberts view on life

djpbarry

Joey the lips wrote: »

Today is the anniversary of the death of boby sands.
...
As this is a political discussion thread anybody any views on his and the death of the 10 hunger strikers contrabution to politics in ireland.

I think they could have made a far greater contribution to society if they decided not to kill themselves, denounced the IRA and focused their efforts on a peaceful resolution to the conflict in Northern Ireland.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Very (....)killing themselves.

A wonderful refutation of points made that will certainly bring the discussion forward there.....

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

A wonderful refutation of points made that will certainly bring the discussion forward there.....

Have you not heard the saying "If you have nothing to say, say nothing at all"?

My post was meant to demonstrate a differing viewpoint which I understand may be difficult for your brain washed mind to comprehend, but you must understand that the IRA became what they set out to defeat, oppressors and murderers.

How can anyone claim that bombing pubs, hotels and shopping centres helps defend a family from a loyalist hate mob breaking their windows? The IRA overstepped the mark, they lost any notion of moral highground they ever had and turned into nothing more than murdering scum looking for vengeance.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How can anyone claim that bombing pubs, hotels and shopping centres helps defend a family from a loyalist hate mob breaking their windows?

Who said otherwise?

dlofnep

futurehope wrote: »

And I've repeatedly stated that once The Army had established complete control then it could have left - LIKE IT HAS DONE. The IRA prolonged the presence of The British Army on Ulster's streets.

British presence in the north prolonged the IRA's campaign in the north. Collusion between British forces and loyalist terrorists ensured that the IRA would remain comfortably packed with supporters.

futurehope wrote: »

The IRA campaign literally exploded and was a pre-meditated attempt to force a British withdrawal by force of arms. Young people were manipulated by ideologically driven Irish Republicans who had been waiting their chance.

Yes of course. What's wrong with wanting to remove a force by arms that kills innocent children on the streets? Nobody was manipulated. Young people had members of their families murdered, had members of their family locked up without trial, were repeatedly attacked by British security forces. There was great merit in their attacks against the British security services.

futurehope wrote: »

Within the context created by militant Republicans.

Irish Republicans didn't kill those people in Ballymurphy and Bogside. British troops did. They were unarmed civilians running for safety and were shot down like dogs. They were terrorist acts against the people of Ireland by British security forces. Plain and simple.

futurehope wrote: »

My definition of aggression would have been if The Security Forces had driven The Catholic population from Ulster and/or killed thousands within a one or two year period. That is what has happened elsewhere in the world in similar circumstances - even recently.

It doesn't matter what your definition of aggression is. When security forces who were originally sent to protect a population, turn around and begin to murder innocent members of that population without just cause - that is aggression.

futurehope wrote: »

Civil inequality and gerrymandering do not merit mass murder. As for collusion, it's surprising there wasn't more (it might have saved some truly innocent Catholic lives). As for internment, that was practised in The ROI as well - and for good reason.

Nobody said anything about meriting mass murder. But as I have stated, murder of civilians by British security forces did merit attacks on British security forces.

Your pathetic attempt to portray gerrymandering, civil inequality, attacks on populations by mandated security forces, collusion and internment without trial as harmless is laughable. There is never good reason for internment.

futurehope wrote: »

No, I don't have a poster of Adair, but I assume when Loyalists killed truly innocent Catholics (less often than is often claimed), they did so to put pressure on The IRA to call off their campaign. This is often what happens when revolutionary combatants don't openly identify themselves - the state (or it's pro-state militias) target the insurgents support base instead.

Adair would be proud of that rhetoric.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

My post was meant to demonstrate a differing viewpoint .

.....rather than address or attempt to relate to the topic (Bobby Sands) or replies to your earlier posts, expressed in highly emotive language, a few more examples of which I've included below.....

Fratton Fred wrote: »

be difficult for your brain washed mind to comprehend, ...... oppressors and murderers....... murdering scum

....that kind of thing.

nkay1985

futurehope wrote: »

nkay1985 said:

Now I'm really going to embarrass you, I'm sorry but you've made it all too easy:

The INLA claimed Lynch as a member:

http://www.irsm.org/fallen/lynch/

Here's a picture of his INLA funeral:

http://www.irsm.org/fallen/lynch/kevin_lynch_funeral.html

In other words he was guilty. :rolleyes:

I hate the way these discussions go and would like to stay out of it but this is just ridiculous.

Read this carefully: At the time of his arrest, Keving Lynch was suspected of committing a crime. Therefore he was, at that time, innocent. That means he has the right to not be dragged out in the middle of the morning with the whole of his family and subjected to beatings before being convicted of any crime.

It is the exact same situation as if you were arrested in the morning under suspicion of committing a crime and being treated that way.

futurehope wrote: »

Oh, I'm afraid I did live through 'those times' and I've met all sorts of people who were involved in one capacity or the other. :rolleyes:

Two rolleyes in one post really show your intelligence.

Kev_ps3

Why do people here constantly talk about the IRA's killings but fail to mention the British Army and their murders and oppressive rule of our native Irish brothers in the north? Its like im talkin to a bunch of unionists

oscarBravo

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Why do people here constantly talk about the IRA's killings but fail to mention the British Army and their murders and oppressive rule of our native Irish brothers in the north? Its like im talkin to a bunch of unionists

You know, you're right: I've been here since 2001, and not once has anyone ever said anything negative about the British Army.

Either that, or I'm living in a selective-perception bubble.

Fratton Fred

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Why do people here constantly talk about the IRA's killings but fail to mention the British Army and their murders and oppressive rule of our native Irish brothers in the north? Its like im talkin to a bunch of unionists

Probably because no one here puts up threads blindly hero worshipping the British Army, RUC, UVF.....

Bottle_of_Smoke

Joey the lips wrote: »

There is no doubt in my mind that the british govt done more for recruiitment in the IRA than the IRA could have ever done, ie

The Hunger Strike
The Bermingham 6
The Guildford 4
The Maguire family
Bloody sunday
The Shankill Butchers...

The list goes on...... The IRA existed becuase the british goverment created the need for protection of nationalists.

I agree with a lot of what you said in this post but what exactly are you saying is the link between the Shankill butchers and the British government?

They weren't supported by the government, the government didnt supply them with weapons, they were an autonomous branch of the UVF led by Lenny Murphy. Vast majority of Unionists/Loyalists view them as shameful and abhorrent

prinz

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Very nice romantic view of the IRA there and I can understand that people want to defend their community from attacks, which is why I, as an Englishman, consider all members of the IRA and their supporters scum and will never lose any sleep over a few that decide to do us all a favour by killing themselves.

....and I, as an Irishman, agree. My grandparents, proud patriotic Irish catholic farmers, living in the Republic far from the border, with no connections whatsoever to Northern Ireland, were targeted by the IRA many years ago, because they were after my grandfather's 30 year old rifle. They were beaten and terrorised by the usual, brave masked heros, robbed and left tied up on their isolated farm. Great men one and all.

It took a gang of 5 young men to give my grandfather a beating, and the worse thing about it.... my grandparents knew exactly who they were, locals all of them. After this incident he got a warning from a neighbour that should anything be said about the identities of the men, they wouldn't hesitate to return and use his rifle on himself.

Wow, I'm so proud of them. Scum. Butchering scum.

nkay1985 wrote: »

Read this carefully: At the time of his arrest, Keving Lynch was suspected of committing a crime. Therefore he was, at that time, innocent. That means he has the right to not be dragged out in the middle of the morning with the whole of his family and subjected to beatings before being convicted of any crime.

It is the exact same situation as if you were arrested in the morning under suspicion of committing a crime and being treated that way.

Yes, that's how internment works. Therefore they had every right to 'drag him out.

The hunger strikers achieved nothing except portraying themselves as little more than animals.

dlofnep

oscarBravo wrote: »

You know, you're right: I've been here since 2001, and not once has anyone ever said anything negative about the British Army.

Either that, or I'm living in a selective-perception bubble.

That's not the issue - The issue is that in threads such as thing - not once do you ever attack the arguments of the likes of futurehope who attempted to blame the deaths of the civilians of bloody sunday and mallymurphy on the IRA, and attempted to give merit to the attacks made by loyalists.

I often see you and a few others quick to attack Republican history, but never have I seen you attack loyalist history with the same veracity. I have no qualms with you attacking the history of the IRA - it has had it's fair share of dark moments, but I would like to see a little consistency with your attacks.

I will leave it at that. I have paid my respects to Bobby Sands - A true hero in Irish history. Nothing more to add to this thread.