Dolphin Brains

velocirafter

How many neurons does a dolphins brain have? Is it more than a humans?

I thought our consciousness and intelligence was a direct results of the amount of neurons in our brains.

John

Their brains are bigger (don't know about the number of neurons) but that isn't a mark of consciousness. The structure of their brains are different, as far as I know the cortex is not as complex as it is in primate (and human brains). A quick google tells me that the dolphin cortex is around half the thickness of human cortex which is a big thing as it is the cortex that is involved in most of the cognitive aspects that defines us as human (such as language and abstraction of thought).

Intelligence and consciousness is a much bigger issue than how many neurons are present in the brain. How they are connected, how they interact and how they are divided in terms of function are the vital factors. Obviously there needs to be a critical amount of neurons for the idea of consciousness to become a meaningful idea, i.e. an ant or a fly have neurons but not enough to form a network complex enough for consciousness (however you define it) to emerge.

velocirafter

ok cool thanks, I was having an argument (drunken ) with a creationist on O'connell street at the weekend and he kept bringing up dolphins

John

Hehe, anything a Creationist tells you is wrong until they provide a decent reference for the information

DrIndy

To be honest - I have no problems reconciling religion with science.

I believe in creation - but who says God's days are 24 hours long? God spent 14 billion years in His 6 "days" getting to this point.

So where is the issue? Darwinism = creationism so long as you are not so arrogant as to believe that God follows the same clock as we do.

(hope I haven't opened up too big a can of worms ;-) )

Dr Galen

you do appear to have a talent for that Indy.

unfortunately your brand/flavour of creationism is not one shared by many many people who take the Bible very literally, and that 7 days meant 7 days in our time, not God-time.

DrIndy

I agree Mystik Monkey - but I still believe it is the ultimate height of arrogance to believe that God should be forced to stoop to our level and follow "our time" - I don't believe there is any reference in the bible which synchronises Gods clock to us.

Therefore - Darwinism = Creationism. QED.

velocirafter

DrIndy wrote: »

I don't believe there is any reference in the bible which synchronises Gods clock to us.

It's unfortunate that the writers of the bible were so vague on "God Time" and left it open to interpretation, they were so exact and factual on every other aspect

*trying to redirect the tread back on topic*
is there a good explanation for consciousness from a scientific point of view, is the size of our cerebral cortexes?

Also if you would like to answer the creationists direct question about dolphins: "Why dont dolphins have justice?"

Dr Galen

well i think at least your a reasonable creationist then Indy. At least you see the flaws in the story and attempt to explain them in a rational way. Sure, if the God figure exists and did create everything etc, then time would more than likely not exist for it. It would have needed to have been around before "time" and thus, exists outside at least our version of time.

The failure of many religious people, of all varieties and strengths, is to see through the allegorical nature of many of the writings on their faith, and look through to the intended meanings. As it stands, I have no issue with religious belief, even though I have none myself, but the Bible is True brigade can rile me up for sure. Scientific creation though, does appear to be gaining ground though, in a broader sense, and that I can deal with no problem

Prime Mover

velocirafter wrote: »

Also if you would like to answer the creationists direct question about dolphins: "Why dont dolphins have justice?"

How can he possibly know that they don't?

Capt'n Midnight

velocirafter wrote: »

How many neurons does a dolphins brain have? Is it more than a humans?

I thought our consciousness and intelligence was a direct results of the amount of neurons in our brains.

Stegasarus had a ganglion in it's hips where so many nerves from the body joined the spinal cord that it was bigger than it's brain. Don't think it made it any smarter.

Whales have much bigger brains than we do. So it's not just a matter of brain size, again they have bigger bodies so more to control / sense. Still they do have complex brains.

BTW: Dinosaurs had tiny brains compared to whales of similar sizes and we know a bit about the behaviour of their descendents, birds and their brain sizes / behaviours so you can forget about "problem solving velociraptors".

Sharks are also relatively large brained.

And I LOL at octopus being an honorary vertebrate

Then again look at the sort of government that our electorate choose, a big brain doesn't necessarily imply intelligence.

Capt'n Midnight

It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars and so on -- whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man -- for precisely the same reasons.
Douglas Adams

froosh69

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And I LOL at octopus being an honorary vertebrate

I'm sure I read somewhere that Octopus can open jars to get food inside! Pretty smart for something with no spine!

Carsinian Thau

froosh69 wrote: »

I'm sure I read somewhere that Octopus can open jars to get food inside! Pretty smart for something with no spine!

They can but they need to relearn the trick a lot. They can't really remember it for long.

Bottle_of_Smoke

velocirafter wrote: »

ok cool thanks, I was having an argument (drunken ) with a creationist on O'connell street at the weekend and he kept bringing up dolphins

What was his angle on it? PM me the answer if you dont want to mention here

O'Coonassa

velocirafter wrote: »

I thought our consciousness and intelligence was a direct results of the amount of neurons in our brains.

No, corvids for instance are smart like primates or dolphins and they've got bird brains.

Nobody knows about consciousness. It's a big mystery.

velocirafter

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

What was his angle on it? PM me the answer if you dont want to mention here

He thought we were special relative to animals, I was saying were exactly the same but we have more advanced brains thats why we have more complex social structures. He kept going on "dolphins are intelligent" "Why dont dolphins have justice" and that kind of stuff