Is the current Irish Govt really THAT bad??

GalwayGunner

Hi All,

I've been working in Australia for the last year so I've been away from it all and out of touch for a while but anytime I look on these boards or talk to anyone at home I inevitably get the usual angry rant about how crap it is at home and how its all the Irish governments fault.

As I said I'm completely out of touch but can this be all blamed on the government?? Couldn't this have been an inevitable consequence of the current global economic downturn coupled with Irish society's craving to own land/property??

Are Fianna Fail the best chance to see us out of this or should Enda Kenny and Fianna Gail be given a chance?? Would they do much better??

Sand

Yes, they really are that bad.

ninty9er

*waits for landmine to...*

oops...too late.

jmayo

GalwayGunner wrote: »

Hi All,

I've been working in Australia for the last year so I've been away from it all and out of touch for a while but anytime I look on these boards or talk to anyone at home I inevitably get the usual angry rant about how crap it is at home and how its all the Irish governments fault.

As I said I'm completely out of touch but can this be all blamed on the government?? Couldn't this have been an inevitable consequence of the current global economic downturn coupled with Irish society's craving to own land/property??

Are Fianna Fail the best chance to see us out of this or should Enda Kenny and Fianna Gail be given a chance?? Would they do much better??

Stay in Australia, the weather is better, Kevin Rudd actually looks and acts like a leader.

PS it is Fine Gael.

Here is analogy of our government's performance.
8/9 years we were champions of Europe and doing great.
Then for 5 odd years the management spent collosal sums on...
old players who were their friends they brought in, all the while letting the younger talented players languish until they left becuase competition better elsewhere.
They hired extra ancilliary staff for the office and gave them huge payrises, spend a fortune on reports to check out if they needed a new pitch or not.
They even bought a new ground at huge cost, but just left the cows graze on it.
They didn't bother to invest in facilities and those they did invest in were substandard and way behind schedule.
They kept their incompetent medical staff and setup, which led to more long term injuries for players.
All the while they had a cheeky chappie as manager, who was good at waffling telling everyone everything was sound and they were still the best.
All the while he was battling the authorities about whether he had taken a few bungs back a few years ago.
The fans believed him or rather tolerated him because they were still doing ok.

Then when times got tough and the competition really started the team was found out as being a farce with no substance and totally overweight totally lacking talent.

Rather than tackle the issues there was a reworking of management.
The cleaning lady became assistant manager in charge of procurring new players, the lawyer is now in charge of the accounts, the defense couch in as groundskeeper, the goalkeeping coach is now the lawyer, the attack coach is now the carpark attendant and the whole show is manageed by the loud mouthed beer swilling singing (I did it my way) carpark sweeper.

Get the picture

GalwayGunner

jmayo wrote: »

PS it is Fine Gael.

D'oh! I really have been out of the country too long....

suckslikeafox

jmayo got it in one.


Yes the global crisis alone has had an impact, because we're so small and open thats inevitable but the mismanagement of the country in the last 10 years and in particular the last 3 years has made it far far worse than it had to be. In relative terms we're pretty much the worst hit in Europe (our Icelandic friends maybe excluded) and we have one party to thank.

Although my personal opinion is Fine Gael would not be able to do much better, especially if they were in bed with Labour

O'Coonassa

GalwayGunner wrote: »

its all the Irish governments fault.

It's the retards who vote for them and who, by the time of the next election, will have failed to realise Kenny and his shower are no different.

GalwayGunner

O'Coonassa wrote: »

It's the retards who vote for them and who, by the time of the next election, will have failed to realise Kenny and his shower are no different.

Then what's the solution?!? My own opinion of Kenny is that he's a affable but hapless fella and looking at his shadow government I really don't see any leaders or anyone likely to pull us out of this mess. So is this the only option we have for us then: forgive the current government and hope they do better or let Kenny in and let him wander aimlessly around Leinster House for a year or two until the country inevitably goes running back to Fianna Fail??

I'm not really partial to any of them to be honest but if I was asked to choose between dumb and dumber I would have to (reluctantly)pick a fella like Cowan over Kenny - at least you get the sort of impression that he would stand up to make the tough decisions.

Holy feck - are these 2 our only options??! Surely there must be something/someone better???

zootroid

jmayo wrote: »

Stay in Australia, the weather is better, Kevin Rudd actually looks and acts like a leader.

PS it is Fine Gael.

Here is analogy of our government's performance.
8/9 years we were champions of Europe and doing great.
Then for 5 odd years the management spent collosal sums on...
old players who were their friends they brought in, all the while letting the younger talented players languish until they left becuase competition better elsewhere.
They hired extra ancilliary staff for the office and gave them huge payrises, spend a fortune on reports to check out if they needed a new pitch or not.
They even bought a new ground at huge cost, but just left the cows graze on it.
They didn't bother to invest in facilities and those they did invest in were substandard and way behind schedule.
They kept their incompetent medical staff and setup, which led to more long term injuries for players.
All the while they had a cheeky chappie as manager, who was good at waffling telling everyone everything was sound and they were still the best.
All the while he was battling the authorities about whether he had taken a few bungs back a few years ago.
The fans believed him or rather tolerated him because they were still doing ok.

Then when times got tough and the competition really started the team was found out as being a farce with no substance and totally overweight totally lacking talent.

Rather than tackle the issues there was a reworking of management.
The cleaning lady became assistant manager in charge of procurring new players, the lawyer is now in charge of the accounts, the defense couch in as groundskeeper, the goalkeeping coach is now the lawyer, the attack coach is now the carpark attendant and the whole show is manageed by the loud mouthed beer swilling singing (I did it my way) carpark sweeper.

Get the picture

Nice analogy!

You forgot to mention how management insist the poor performance recently is all the fault of FIFA/UEFA!

Sand

Then what's the solution?!? My own opinion of Kenny is that he's a affable but hapless fella and looking at his shadow government I really don't see any leaders or anyone likely to pull us out of this mess. So is this the only option we have for us then: forgive the current government and hope they do better or let Kenny in and let him wander aimlessly around Leinster House for a year or two until the country inevitably goes running back to Fianna Fail??

I'm not really partial to any of them to be honest but if I was asked to choose between dumb and dumber I would have to (reluctantly)pick a fella like Cowan over Kenny - at least you get the sort of impression that he would stand up to make the tough decisions.

Okay, to summarise you can choose between Cowen who you KNOW is terrible, who has PROVEN himself to be terrible and someone like Kenny who you THINK might be terrible, possibly.

And you choose to go with the guy you KNOW is terrible?

Jesus wept.

We get the government we deserve. Or at least the one you do.

thebman

We should hit you just for asking the question!

We won't though although mostly because we can't over the Internet

oscarBravo

Sand wrote: »

Okay, to summarise you can choose between Cowen who you KNOW is terrible, who has PROVEN himself to be terrible and someone like Kenny who you THINK might be terrible, possibly.

And you choose to go with the guy you KNOW is terrible?

Over and over again I sit in helpless bewilderment as my compatriots indulge in this form of "logic".

Yes, the current government is a total disaster. And that is - completely, totally and utterly - our fault. When we wake up and realise this, there's a chance that we can fix it.

tolteq

GalwayGunner wrote: »

Holy feck - are these 2 our only options??! Surely there must be something/someone better???

George Lee?

thebman

oscarBravo wrote: »

Over and over again I sit in helpless bewilderment as my compatriots indulge in this form of "logic".

Yes, the current government is a total disaster. And that is - completely, totally and utterly - our fault. When we wake up and realise this, there's a chance that we can fix it.

Well thats it really isn't it. It isn't even how do you know if you don't vote for them.

If you do vote for them and they get elected, they know not to act like the current government since this is who they are being voted in to replace.

Worst case scenario they will be a little better IMO.

FF have no reason to change how they behave at present as long as people keep voting them back in so expect more of the same and expect the public to be ignored except on vote grabbing issues. FF will do what suits FF and to hell with the Irish public.

Het-Field

I have been beating the drum about the 6 Crisis that we are engaged in.

The Global economic down, is incidental and incremental.

Look at it this way, the Government's decision to raise VAT has cost us hundreds of millions. The Minimum Wage, and our current level of corpo tax are scaring businesse away, and the Government plan to place a carbon tax on top of that.

They havve articulated no plan, ahead of covering their asses over NAMA (which apparently is going to cost every cent saved in the mini budget). Its going nowhere fast.

hellboy99

They're beyond bad at this stage, when are they going is what I want to know.

jmayo

GalwayGunner wrote: »

Then what's the solution?!? My own opinion of Kenny is that he's a affable but hapless fella and looking at his shadow government I really don't see any leaders or anyone likely to pull us out of this mess. So is this the only option we have for us then: forgive the current government and hope they do better or let Kenny in and let him wander aimlessly around Leinster House for a year or two until the country inevitably goes running back to Fianna Fail??

I'm not really partial to any of them to be honest but if I was asked to choose between dumb and dumber I would have to (reluctantly)pick a fella like Cowan over Kenny - at least you get the sort of impression that he would stand up to make the tough decisions.

Holy feck - are these 2 our only options??! Surely there must be something/someone better???

If that is your attitude then stay to f**k in Oz.
We have enough eejits in this country who still believe that clowen's ff are better than Kenny and FG, just because ff spout it.
Yeah clowen has stood up and made the tough decisions :rolleyes:
You really are out of touch or else a closet ffer if you believe that statement.

Back to football analogy...
if your team are doing absolutely sh*** and it is patently obvious that management haven't an effing clue would you persist in keeping them, just because they tell you the other options won't be much better ?

oscarBravo wrote: »

Over and over again I sit in helpless bewilderment as my compatriots indulge in this form of "logic".

Yes, the current government is a total disaster. And that is - completely, totally and utterly - our fault. When we wake up and realise this, there's a chance that we can fix it.

OB to paraphrase a famour film, the greatest trick FF have pulled over the last 7/8 years is convincing the voters in this country that no matter what they do, they are still a better option than the opposition"

How many times have you heard voters say...
"shure the other crowd would be just as bad (re corrupt,unethical, etc) if they got a chance"
"how could you trust Kenny to be leader of country, he has no experience"
"shure Kenny has no charisma, would you want to go for a drink with him"
...

As a nation, we sound like a battered wife who refuses to see the options, but continues to believe the husband, no matter what new abuses they impose.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

oscarBravo

jmayo wrote: »

As a nation, we sound like a battered wife who refuses to see the options, but continues to believe the husband, no matter what new abuses they impose.

I've used that analogy more than once.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

One of my core philosophies in life is that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again, and expecting a different result. The logical corollary is: if what you're doing isn't working, do something different.

To answer your question: I think that the political system in this country is fundamentally broken and needs to be radically overhauled. In the short term, that's not going to happen, so something needs to change.

The current government have no new ideas. Voting them back in is doing the same thing again, and expecting a different result.

Fine Gael's healthcare proposal is one of the first truly interesting - and radical - suggestions I've seen, in that it proposes taking something that's horribly broken, and basically discarding it for a model that has been shown to work elsewhere. For that sort of thinking alone, I think they deserve an opportunity to show us what they can do.

But, more importantly, I think the current government need a clear message that they will not be blithely forgiven for their wanton destruction of the economy. The alternative is to vote them back in, and thereby reward that wanton destruction. A basic principle of psychology is that behaviour that is rewarded will be repeated. I don't believe FF should be rewarded for their performance in government. Do you?

teednab-el

O'Coonassa wrote: »

It's the retards who vote for them and who, by the time of the next election, will have failed to realise Kenny and his shower are no different.

Its this kind of nonsense amongst some people that I cannot understand. Before Cowen became taoiseach, everyone went on about how the country was left in safe hands and look whats happened in 12 months. A good leader as what he was thought to be made the most unusual ministerial appointments for tainaiste and minister for finance (who have been nothing but a disaster to this country).

The end of the story is that Cowen is a failure and never turned out to be the great leader that everybody anticipated. This government has ruined this country but its good enough for some people because you hadnt the sense to see past the FF government.


And then some people in this country think Kenny couldnt do better..well what I say is why not give him a chance and see what he can do. He cant do any worse that this present government. He hasnt had a chance to proove himself. He's more qualified to do the job than Cowen. Dont judge the book by the cover.

nesf

oscarBravo wrote: »

One of my core philosophies in life is that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again, and expecting a different result. The logical corollary is: if what you're doing isn't working, do something different.

Indeed, the hard being figuring out which part of what you were doing needs changing. Just doing something completely different isn't useful, there needs to be reasons to change things and analysis of why and what went wrong with the old method.

silverharp

nesf wrote: »

Indeed, the hard being figuring out which part of what you were doing needs changing. Just doing something completely different isn't useful, there needs to be reasons to change things and analysis of why and what went wrong with the old method.

I agree with OB's sentiment , I'd square the circle by saying look at history. Everything that is happening now has rhymed with a sequence of events in the past or as George Santayana said "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

oscarBravo

nesf wrote: »

Indeed, the hard being figuring out which part of what you were doing needs changing. Just doing something completely different isn't useful, there needs to be reasons to change things and analysis of why and what went wrong with the old method.

Sometimes trial-and-error is a rapid and effective diagnostic tool.

By way of comparison: sometimes in my business we have equipment failures that can lead to service outages for our customers. We could start a process of fault analysis, trying to figure out what caused the problem - or we can replace components one by one until the customers are back online.

That's not to say that we just start swapping out parts at random. We can usually tell from the symptoms where the problem is most likely to lie, and based on that target the component that's most likely to be at fault. Also, we tend to start with the components that can most easily be replaced.

In political terms, the most straightforward step we can take is to swap out the government. It might help; it might not. The one thing we don't ever do when troubleshooting kit is to leave a component in place on the assumption that it the replacement part isn't likely to be any better.

johnnyskeleton

O'Coonassa wrote: »

It's the retards who vote for them and who, by the time of the next election, will have failed to realise Kenny and his shower are no different.

nesf wrote:

Indeed, the hard being figuring out which part of what you were doing needs changing. Just doing something completely different isn't useful, there needs to be reasons to change things and analysis of why and what went wrong with the old method.

They are different solely in the fact that they are not FF. FF have been in power too long and have become complacent. A change every few years, while not making much difference policy wise, would prevent the extremes of corruption and cronyism that went on. If FG were in power right now, at least they would be merciless with the banks and developers who support FF, as FF would no doubt punish the FG cronies when they came back into power 5 years down the line.

If the choice is between laying down with two snakes, the best you can do is constantly jump from bed to bed.

nesf

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If the choice is between laying down with two snakes, the best you can do is constantly jump from bed to bed.

Indeed and well put.


As an aside, my above post shouldn't be read as a "don't vote FF out" point, it wasn't. I was trying to get at that with the change of Government that policy change should be because it's necessary not because the old policy was associated with the previous office holders as so often is the case in politics.

ardmacha

Look at it this way, the Government's decision to raise VAT has cost us hundreds of millions.

The decision to raise VAT by 0.5% was not very important and did not cost "hundreds of millions". It is this type of trite analysis that has the country the way it is.

O'Coonassa

GalwayGunner wrote: »

Then what's the solution?!?

Nobody show up to vote and we'll take it from there.

O'Coonassa

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If the choice is between laying down with two snakes, the best you can do is constantly jump from bed to bed.

Stop feeding them, stand very still and wait for the snakes to leave.

Taltos

Jeez - picking Fine Gael cause a change is good? Anyone remember last time they were in - all the talk of water charges, would not be surprised if we get landed with a land tax too just to pay for their expenses.

But FF - man - for years they have frittered away our cash. All the way back to that great saving scheme - why was money not invested in our infrastructure then or saved for today. McCreevey then Cowan - the mismanagement of our finances is there for all to see.

But to have Cowan back - no way. Nor do I want Kenny - do not trust him one bit - comes across as a slimeball.

But who else?
Greens? - well and truly in with FF...
Labour? do not trust them either

Maybe it is time for us to look at our governance model and shake it up?
Starting first with wages - then expenses then pension - let them wait until they are 65 for that.

As long as we have a system in place that lets them treat us like mugs that is exactly what they will do.

danef

I'm note totally understanding of the hole political structure but it is very clear to me that FG and FF are so close in their policies that changing our voting from FF to FG wont really offer an alternative.

If you look at the UK structure and the American structure you have a left and a right that are the 2 main partys. Then look at Ireland and we have right wing main opposition partys.

This to me means nothing will really ever change, as the policies are so similar. Yes they might talk themselves different but we all know they are practically the same and past experience tells us this also.

I believe the real solidness that Ireland lacks that UK and American structures have is down to the swapping back and forth of the left and right parties over a period of time the enableling implementation of the best of both ideologies.

Is it time to give Labour a chance? Both America and the UK have left governments do we need to follow suit?

What would the budget have held for us with a Labour government? If the UK budget is anything to go by, would it have been a lot better than the one we had?

I am at the crossroads here on weather to change my vote? All the talk of Kenny and Cowan personally I think Gilmore is a bigger hitter?

At this stage I will need to be convinced not to switch to Labour hard as it is to say.

Convince me!

ArphaRima

My vote is going to go between Labour and FG. Not even a 5th preference will be given to FF. My only decision is which party to give 1st preference to.

I also hold the greens in contempt. They bear the blame for keeping FF in power.


Like most people I smell blood and I want heads.

Unlike most people I didnt vote for FF or the greens the last time.
The irish people are more to blame than any political party.