Dole

Lobster

I agree that the dole is generous, the problem is changing after you loose your job. I am lucky enough in that I only have a car to keep paying for, apart from rent, food etc. I got a car that suited my lifestyle while I was working and could do with a smaller one now with less power. Problem is I can't sell it, and if I did, it wouldn't be near what its worth, going by what I bought it for last year. I can't complain about the amount I get, I can live fine on it, but if I had mortgage payments to keep up with, i'd be loosing my home. I had to reduce phone price plans to cheapest etc and make a good few changes. It takes time to adjust after loosing your job.

Max Power1

thebullkf wrote: »

i guess you have a job?????:rolleyes::rolleyes:

rememberwhat prsi stands for!!
if you've worked,you're entitled to it.
if your stamps run out,it should be PROPERLY means tested.

i know a guy works in state pensions....a very famous presenter on a certain fri. night show recently "qualified" for his pension....despite earning 500k a year,having a mansion and an excellent private pension.etc etc
his wife was bangingdown the doorlooking for bus pass etc.
THATS WRONG!:eek:

bertie gave ministers pay rise before he left(hush money??)

if a td's day job is covered by relief staff(as is the norm)
and the relief staffdon't earn the wage allocated to that post..the td gets the remainder!!!!!
eg. teacher becomes td, salary 40k
relief staff gets 30k
td gets remainder=10k..AFAIK
on top of td salary expenses etc...

and people want to cut the dole....
thats right gimme a kick in the balls while i'm wide open.

attitudes like yours disgust me..30% cut???:(
130e a week dole...

you prob spend more than that on "wants" every week.
people unemployed have "needs"
and one of those is "need" for attitudeslike yours to kept to yourself.:mad::mad::mad:

Actually i was let go early this year, and i am recieving JB (which i am entitled to as i paid prsi for at least 5 years straight).

€130e dole is more than people survive on in the UK, an area with similar cost of living as ourselves. We will not be able to tax our way out of the recession - we need to make cuts in social spending and increase schemes like back to work schemes, further eduacuation etc. Borrowing €54 million a day to fund social welfare extravagances is part of the reason that Ireland is going to be one of the worst hit in this global downturn.

thethedev

Yes, lets cut the dole, because thats the easiest thing to do.
Lets just ingore the ridicoulous tax breaks etc and backhanders of the government they're to hard to understand for anyone whos not an economist.
Cut the dole? Yeah, go ahead and just ****ing prove how gullible we all are.....

thebman

astrofool wrote: »

The problem is that social welfare is taking up such a huge proportion of our finances, that we would have to cut all other service to nearly 0 in order to keep paying at our current levels.

While PRSI has the word insurance in it, it is not run that way, it is being run as a current account by the government, with nothing to show for the boom years, there is no insurance aspect to it, as the money is not there, the danger is that if it's kept at the level it is currently at, the country becomes unsustainable, and we are left facing a massive cut, and then we really would have people starving. The cuts need to be handled softly, but they do need to be made, and we should be aiming to get our costs below the EU average in all area's (wages, utilities, social welfare) in order to become competitive again.

Also, remember that the person on 500k has paid far more tax than most people in the country, 80% of our income tax take is from the top 20% of earners, 40% is coming from the top 5%, if the country becomes inhospitable to those people, they are the one group that can readily move, and leave everyone in the country up sh*t creek.

Lol so because it the government can't afford it, it doesn't count as an insurance scheme anymore. Mortgage holder should try that one. Sorry I don't have a mortgage with you as I can't afford it so you can't take the house back as I don't have a mortgage with you.

I love this logic

thebullkf

Max Power1 wrote: »

Actually i was let go early this year, and i am recieving JB (which i am entitled to as i paid prsi for at least 5 years straight).

€130e dole is more than people survive on in the UK, an area with similar cost of living as ourselves. We will not be able to tax our way out of the recession - we need to make cuts in social spending and increase schemes like back to work schemes, further eduacuation etc. Borrowing €54 million a day to fund social welfare extravagances is part of the reason that Ireland is going to be one of the worst hit in this global downturn.

social welfare extravagance???
what age are you?
maybeyou need "eduacuation"
sorry if i sound bitter,its just......i am!!

gimme a break.... cost of living is much cheaper in england..
hence the exodus to sains every week..
pie n a pint £2.50
feed a family for a fiver
cars a third of the price.
you telling me its the same
only thing comparitive in england is petrol and smokes...

and by the way once you paid prsi in 2007 you're entitled to jb.

thebman

Max Power1 wrote: »

Actually i was let go early this year, and i am recieving JB (which i am entitled to as i paid prsi for at least 5 years straight).

€130e dole is more than people survive on in the UK, an area with similar cost of living as ourselves. We will not be able to tax our way out of the recession - we need to make cuts in social spending and increase schemes like back to work schemes, further eduacuation etc. Borrowing €54 million a day to fund social welfare extravagances is part of the reason that Ireland is going to be one of the worst hit in this global downturn.

Aren't the UK borrowing a higher percentage of their GDP this year than we are?

And they are talking about increasing welfare so ... ... ...

No crap government policy is the reason we are going to be one of the worst hit. Dole is just one part of this that needs to be reformed but cuts across the board aren't the way to do it because that is stupid way to do anything. You have to anaylse things before you make changes and identify where to make cuts. There are savings to be made on the dole lots of them without effecting the recently unemployed within the past year which is the way it should be done IMO.

astrofool

The UK also haven't increased income tax to any meaningful degree, whereas we have. We increased social welfare too much during the boom years as it was an easy vote winner. The crap policy was making the dole so comparable to the minimum wage that lots of people didn't work, and lived on handouts. Now that we have people losing jobs who genuinely want to work, the problem has been exacerbated.

It would be great to move to a system like Germany, where your payments are based on previous earnings, but I think we are too entrenched at the moment to make those changes, so, it will just be across the board cuts, regardless of whether you need the extra bit to make the mortgage payment, or to pay off a holiday to the med.

Regardless of what savings can be made on the government side (and the SW office will be just as inefficient as the rest, and hiring more staff would just increase costs, with little productivity gain no doubt), the real cost at the moment is social welfare, we do not have the money to pay for it, and the longer it goes uncut, the deeper in the hole we'll be.

thebman

astrofool wrote: »

The UK also haven't increased income tax to any meaningful degree, whereas we have. We increased social welfare too much during the boom years as it was an easy vote winner. The crap policy was making the dole so comparable to the minimum wage that lots of people didn't work, and lived on handouts. Now that we have people losing jobs who genuinely want to work, the problem has been exacerbated.

It would be great to move to a system like Germany, where your payments are based on previous earnings, but I think we are too entrenched at the moment to make those changes, so, it will just be across the board cuts, regardless of whether you need the extra bit to make the mortgage payment, or to pay off a holiday to the med.

Regardless of what savings can be made on the government side (and the SW office will be just as inefficient as the rest, and hiring more staff would just increase costs, with little productivity gain no doubt), the real cost at the moment is social welfare, we do not have the money to pay for it, and the longer it goes uncut, the deeper in the hole we'll be.

The UK are at arguably more dodgy practices than increasing income tax such as quantitative easing.

astrofool

thebman wrote: »

The UK are at arguably more dodgy practices than increasing income tax such as quantitative easing.

Yep, which will send the value of sterling down, and increase living costs due to the high cost of foreign goods (inc. energy).

We on the other hand are seeing a major drop in living costs.

Daithinski

Lobster wrote: »

I agree that the dole is generous, .... but if I had mortgage payments to keep up with, i'd be loosing my home. I had to reduce phone price plans to cheapest etc and make a good few changes. It takes time to adjust after loosing your job.

Maybe you should just agree that the dole is generous to you.

I would guess that the people who are on the dole that think it is "generous" is a tiny percentage.

However, it is your civic duty to contact your local TD to identify yourself and your demographic so they can cut find a way to cut your dole amount.

drunkdaz

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'd love to see the numbers to support this argument because I do not believe that people in the UK are receiving 50% less than people in Ireland. . Plus, when you factor in the significantly lower cost of living (which you like to gloss over) I doubt there is any real difference at all..

We need a dole system that protects the most vulnerable and encourages people to go back to work but a blanket cut across the board would be ridiculous. . there is plenty of waste in the system that can be removed to save money without doing this. .

Here's some food for thought...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8015182.stm

No talk about having to pay for phones etc lol.. You get £10 more if you're over 25. Note you have to pay council tax out of it too, something you don't have to do in Ireland. She makes an interesting point also that she has to pay for a travel card to sign on, but says its only £5. A zone 1 & 2 weekly here in London is £26.
I'm not saying this is how it should be, but it might bring some people back down to earth with regard to lifestyle expectations on the dole.

People keep on talking about the higher cost of living in Ireland, while the south east of England is one of the mos expensive places to live in the world. London cheap?

The dole in Ireland would be unsustainable even if unemployment wasn't sky-rocketing as it is. As it is the country is on the verge of bankruptcy. Something has to give.

saol alainn

A reduction in social welfare (such as the dole) would only make sense if there were jobs to be had, no? I mean, it's all very well saying it should be reduced because people should be working, but work where? Yes there are jobs to be had. But...

One of these days I may write about my own circumstances, because at this point in time all I'm interested in is the discussion, but in many instances I've been "overqualified", "underqualified" (for a similar job as the one I'd been overqualified for in another place), not enough experience, etc. etc. That is, when I get a reply to begin with. This has been going on for two years, only managing a few weeks here and there. No, I'm not in receipt of any allowance/dole/whatever. My husband's working, thank God, and as long as one of us is, we'll be OK. I'm sure there are thousands like us. Taking time out because of child-rearing ends with the mother in no man's land.

Yes, there are people who abuse the system. Cannot that be said in every strata of society? Did/do not the bankers? Did/do not the politicians? But it saddens me that people bay for the blood of those with no, or hardly any, fault at the present state of affairs, while those at the top get away with whatever it is they wish.

murphaph

saol alainn wrote: »

A reduction in social welfare (such as the dole) would only make sense if there were jobs to be had, no? I mean, it's all very well saying it should be reduced because people should be working

Nobody said that. The dole (along with wages and pensions) needs reducing as we simply can't afford to keep borrowing 54m a day to pay for these things.

teednab-el

astrofool wrote: »

The problem is that social welfare is taking up such a huge proportion of our finances, that we would have to cut all other service to nearly 0 in order to keep paying at our current levels.

How about previous government spending? The government should have used taxpayers money better. E-voting took up a huge proportion of our finances also. If the money in the ecomony during the boom years was managed more intelligently, we wouldnty have such a major problem with the country's finances. No need to take it out on social welfare alone.

astrofool

teednab-el wrote: »

How about previous government spending? The government should have used taxpayers money better. E-voting took up a huge proportion of our finances also. If the money in the ecomony during the boom years was managed more intelligently, we wouldnty have such a major problem with the country's finances. No need to take it out on social welfare alone.

Can't agree more, I'll just hop in my time machine and go and get all that money from the boom years to solve the problem, back in a jiffy.

Front

aare wrote: »

Err...no...there were "stealth cuts" to rent allowances too...€6 per week cut since October, further €5 per week cut now, and 8% to be cut from all rent allowances regardless of rent being paid.

yes, but rents are down 20% and will continue to fall. Rent allowance based on 2006/7 rents should be cut in line with 2009 falls no? If it was paying X% of 2006/7 rent, it could be cut and still pay the same % of the rent.

thebman

Front wrote: »

yes, but rents are down 20% and will continue to fall. Rent allowance based on 2006/7 rents should be cut in line with 2009 falls no? If it was paying X% of 2006/7 rent, it could be cut and still pay the same % of the rent.

Well for lots of people they are locked into leases so rents don't automatically fall as soon as there is surplus places to rent. It takes time for people to get to a position where they can negotiate.

For example, I rented the house I am in in October 2008 so I'm locked into paying the lease until October 2009.

Daithinski

astrofool wrote: »

We increased social welfare too much during the boom years as it was an easy vote winner.

To get that crucial easy vote of the 5% long term unemployed during the boom
I don't think this demographic is that bothered about voting at all, let alone voting for FF.

astrofool wrote: »

It would be great to move to a system like Germany, where your payments are based on previous earnings,

You think this would save money? Think of all the high earners who are recently unemployed, architects, engineers, brickies, carpenters etc.

Paying out dole based on a percentage of wages (up to 40% in france) would be a lot more that the dole is currently.

Considering our recent high wage history, it wouldn't be a way of reducing the social welfare costs.

I'm guessing this system would suit you.

sunnyside

is it any wonder people remain on the dole?
health insurance for my family is 3000€
(

Surely you don't expect the social welfare to cover that cost especially when you can have a medical card when you are unemployed? Obviously I hope you or your family will not need any hospital treatment.

I do agree about the lack of incentive to work with the dole as high as it is. It's not a massive amount of money but it's close enough to minimum wage.

There are a lot of extras like the medical card, grants towards training courses, rent allowance....

I watched that video about the girl living on £50, after bills she has £5 to buy food for the week. Bills vary so much from one person to the next it's impossible to say how much is needed.

dresden8

Daithinski wrote: »

To get that crucial easy vote of the 5% long term unemployed during the boom
I don't think this demographic is that bothered about voting at all, let alone voting for FF.

There's more to social welfare than the unemployed. Over a million people.

Daithinski

dresden8 wrote: »

There's more to social welfare than the unemployed. Over a million people.

Maybe this thread should be named "Social Welfare" instead of Dole

sunnyside

In relation to "dole" and willingness to work, etc:

I called a carpenter from a newspaper ad to do some small jobs, fixing presses, etc. I had €100 in my purse to pay him expecting him to charge me €50 and hopefully no more than that. The guy who turned up was Polish and he charged me €20:eek: I was so shocked that he would charge so little I gave him €30 as I considered that to be a more reasonable price. The jobs I had for him were small and probably very easy for him but I can't imagine any Irish person willing to work or feeling that they could afford to work for so little. The guy was supposed to arrive at 9am, he turned up at 8.30am having come straight from working a night shift somewhere else. I honestly believe us Irish people would not work for so little. The extra €10 I gave him probably goes straight to savings. Just speaking to him made it so clear to me how differently us Irish think about money. We spend so readily on takeaway coffee, newspapers, magazines, bottles of water, drinks, deli counter at Centra it's no wonder we need €204 a week.

kadman

sunnyside wrote: »

In relation to "dole" and willingness to work, etc:

I called a carpenter from a newspaper ad to do some small jobs, fixing presses, etc. I had €100 in my purse to pay him expecting him to charge me €50 and hopefully no more than that. The guy who turned up was Polish and he charged me €20:eek: I was so shocked that he would charge so little I gave him €30 as I considered that to be a more reasonable price. The jobs I had for him were small and probably very easy for him but I can't imagine any Irish person willing to work or feeling that they could afford to work for so little. The guy was supposed to arrive at 9am, he turned up at 8.30am having come straight from working a night shift somewhere else. I honestly believe us Irish people would not work for so little. The extra €10 I gave him probably goes straight to savings. Just speaking to him made it so clear to me how differently us Irish think about money. We spend so readily on takeaway coffee, newspapers, magazines, bottles of water, drinks, deli counter at Centra it's no wonder we need €204 a week.

Was that a cash job, or was it a receipt, income tax,vat,business, public liability insurance scenario. Just curious, as there is a difference between cash prices, and business prices, as you know

griswald

MysticalRain

We spend so readily on takeaway coffee, newspapers, magazines, bottles of water, drinks, deli counter at Centra it's no wonder we need €204 a week.

Not all of us by a long shot.

Daithinski

sunnyside wrote: »

In relation to "dole" and willingness to work, etc:

I called a carpenter from a newspaper ad to do some small jobs, fixing presses, etc. I had €100 in my purse to pay him expecting him to charge me €50 and hopefully no more than that. The guy who turned up was Polish and he charged me €20:eek: I was so shocked that he would charge so little I gave him €30 as I considered that to be a more reasonable price. The jobs I had for him were small and probably very easy for him but I can't imagine any Irish person willing to work or feeling that they could afford to work for so little. The guy was supposed to arrive at 9am, he turned up at 8.30am having come straight from working a night shift somewhere else. I honestly believe us Irish people would not work for so little. The extra €10 I gave him probably goes straight to savings. Just speaking to him made it so clear to me how differently us Irish think about money. We spend so readily on takeaway coffee, newspapers, magazines, bottles of water, drinks, deli counter at Centra it's no wonder we need €204 a week.

He is probably claiming the dole as well....:rolleyes:

If people so readily give 50% more than the price quoted it's no wonder we need €204 a week.

kadman

Poverty is already a big problem in Ireland, according to the criteria that puts some one into that grouping,

http://www.socialinclusion.ie/poverty.html#howcan

What is Consistent Poverty?
The official Government approved poverty measure used in Ireland is consistent poverty, developed independently by the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI). This measure identifies the proportion of people, from those with an income below a certain threshold (less than 60% of median income), who are deprived of two or more goods or services considered essential for a basic standard of living.

The consistent poverty measure was devised in 1987 using indicators of deprivation based on standards of living at that time. The Government in 2007 accepted the advice of the ESRI to revise the deprivation indicators to better reflect current living standards and, in particular, to focus to a greater degree on items reflecting social inclusion and participation in society. This resulted in the measure, originally based on lacking one or more items from an 8-item index, changing to one based on lacking two or more items from the following 11-item index:

1. Two pairs of strong shoes

2. A warm waterproof overcoat

3. Buy new not second-hand clothes

4. Eat meals with meat, chicken, fish (or vegetarian equivalent) every second day

5. Have a roast joint or its equivalent once a week

6. Had to go without heating during the last year through lack of money

7. Keep the home adequately warm

8. Buy presents for family or friends at least once a year

9. Replace any worn out furniture

10. Have family or friends for a drink or meal once a month

11. Have a morning, afternoon or evening out in the last fortnight, for entertainment



This revised set of deprivation indicators will be used to measure consistent poverty over the duration of the new NAPinclusion. The current (2006) rate of consistent poverty using the new measure is 6.5%, having reduced from 8.2% in 2003.

You might find yourself fitting into that grouping very easily. Cutting social welfare payments is only going to increase that level. Unfortunately they are an easy target group for suggestions of cuts , just like the paye worker.

kadman

irish_bob

kadman wrote: »

Poverty is already a big problem in Ireland, according to the criteria that puts some one into that grouping,

http://www.socialinclusion.ie/poverty.html#howcan



You might find yourself fitting into that grouping very easily. Cutting social welfare payments is only going to increase that level. Unfortunately they are an easy target group for suggestions of cuts , just like the paye worker.

kadman

suggesting cutting wellfare is not at easy one by any means , the poverty industry is very vocal in this country and has easy access to our overwhelmingly left wing PC media

irish_bob

kadman wrote: »

Poverty is already a big problem in Ireland, according to the criteria that puts some one into that grouping,

http://www.socialinclusion.ie/poverty.html#howcan



You might find yourself fitting into that grouping very easily. Cutting social welfare payments is only going to increase that level. Unfortunately they are an easy target group for suggestions of cuts , just like the paye worker.

kadman

suggesting cutting wellfare is not at easy one by any means , the poverty industry is very vocal in this country and has easy access to our overwhelmingly left wing PC media , any politican who raised the issue would be publicly lynched

kadman

irish_bob wrote: »

suggesting cutting wellfare is not at easy one by any means , the poverty industry is very vocal in this country and has easy access to our overwhelmingly left wing PC media , any politican who raised the issue would be publicly lynched

I,m not advocating cutting the dole, as its base rate is already accepted by eu criteria set , as being below the poverty line. If people believe that the rate of dole is enough to live on satisfactorily, why dont they resign from work, and offer their job to someone on the dole who is looking for a position.

People are on the dole for one simple reason....there are no jobs. If the dole was so attractive , why are 550+ people queueing for low paid positions where there is only 35 positions on offer. Being on the dole is not by choice for the vast majority of people, they did not have one.

kadman

sunnyside

kadman wrote: »

Was that a cash job, or was it a receipt, income tax,vat,business, public liability insurance scenario. Just curious, as there is a difference between cash prices, and business prices, as you know

I paid him cash.

mikemac wrote: »

Did he give a receipt? Did he have a van for his business? A vat number? Public liability insurance? Did you ask to see his qualification, I've asked this from tradesmen and if they are genuine it's never a problem!

You get what you pay for.......

Having said all that, the days of paying a brickie one euro per brick are long over and it'll be a long time before they come back. I read on another thread the agreed rate for a labourer is 15euro for hour, why did I go to college??? I barely earn that

No receipt, no van--he had a small car. I didn't ask questions about VAT, etc. The jobs he did for me were very small repairs, if I was paying for a new fitted kitchen or doing electricial work, other big jobs ,I would be very fussey about who did it. All the guy did were jobs a lot of people would do themselves but I'm a woman living alone who doesn't do DIY. I'm happy with his work. My point was that an Irish person would most likely have some sort of call-out charge before even looking at the job I had for him.