Dole

thebullkf

:cool:

kadman wrote: »

I,m not advocating cutting the dole, as its base rate is already accepted by eu criteria set , as being below the poverty line. If people believe that the rate of dole is enough to live on satisfactorily, why dont they resign from work, and offer their job to someone on the dole who is looking for a position.

People are on the dole for one simple reason....there are no jobs. If the dole was so attractive , why are 550+ people queueing for low paid positions where there is only 35 positions on offer. Being on the dole is not by choice for the vast majority of people, they did not have one.

kadman

possibly the most sensible comment on this thread.

touche . :cool::cool:

thebullkf

mikemac wrote: »

And you wonder why an Irish registered tradesman who fulfills all his legal obligations can't compete......

GTFO- you a tradesman??

worked on sites all my life,never met anyone opposed to doing an odd nixer.

get off your high horse.:mad:
that ladies correct,irish are too lazy,too well paid and too used to doing sweet fcuk all the last ten years to bother their hole doing what they perceive to be "menial".....tide is turning though,people willing to work now for reasonable money.

lets hope we all get through this recession ASAP.

jank

I agree with that. Nixers are part and parcel of a trade.

I know of someone how did nixers all the time even when times were good. He was fair, didn't rip you off and the work was excellent.
Nowadays, I thought that he must be suffering due to the downturn.

Not a chance, he has never been busier!!!...why? Cause he is not lazy, has a list of people that call on him. a good reputation and now that money is tight he will do a good job for a good price. Its as simple as that. By the way he is not a pole just an Irish guy who is not afraid of hard work!

On the dole, yea it is too high. I would use a system where if you are on it over a year it gets scaled back 20% until it is half of what it is now.

kadman

jank wrote: »

I agree with that. Nixers are part and parcel of a trade.

I know of someone how did nixers all the time even when times were good. He was fair, didn't rip you off and the work was excellent.
Nowadays, I thought that he must be suffering due to the downturn.

Not a chance, he has never been busier!!!...why? Cause he is not lazy, has a list of people that call on him. a good reputation and now that money is tight he will do a good job for a good price. Its as simple as that. By the way he is not a pole just an Irish guy who is not afraid of hard work!

On the dole, yea it is too high. I would use a system where if you are on it over a year it gets scaled back 20% until it is half of what it is now.

Could you live on the dole, as the rates currently stand for a single person. And could you live on half of it. If you could, can you please post up how, as I,m sure many on the dole would welcome the info. I dont believe it can be done, with regards to food, heat, electric, transport for jobseeking if you live outside of a city ect.

I,d be very interested in your advice, as to how its possible in normal day to day living. I,ve seen many posts that say its too high, but I,ve yet to see one that can prove it can be done, in normal day to day issues.

kadman

jank

Do you think we should borrow billions and risk bankrupting the country to pay for dole? We have the 2nd highest in europe. One can live on the dole, just...but its living not a lifestyle.

I fail to see how we can get back on our feet as a country and not cut the dole. (One of many measures we need to take!)

If we are going to take the populist route then the IMF will be coming here sooner rather than later and trust me you dont want them to make these decisions for us as they will just cut it overnight.

thebman

jank wrote: »

Do you think we should borrow billions and risk bankrupting the country to pay for dole? We have the 2nd highest in europe. One can live on the dole, just...but its living not a lifestyle.

I fail to see how we can get back on our feet as a country and not cut the dole. (One of many measures we need to take!)

If we are going to take the populist route then the IMF will be coming here sooner rather than later and trust me you dont want them to make these decisions for us as they will just cut it overnight.

The necessary route is to reduce in line with the cost of living and reductions elsewhere with regard to wages.

That is the only measure that makes sense or else it risks seriously poverty for those on the dole. It isn't unachievable nor will it bankrupt the country to do so.

jank

thebman wrote: »

The necessary route is to reduce in line with the cost of living and reductions elsewhere with regard to wages.

That is the only measure that makes sense or else it risks seriously poverty for those on the dole. It isn't unachievable nor will it bankrupt the country to do so.

Unfortuantely deflation like that will take years. We dont have years on hand to wait and see what the cost of living will be like. Money needs to be given to encouraging training, enterprise etc....
Cutting dole payments should also speed up the process of deflation
The wait and see attitutde is something we cant afford right now.

Real wages have fallen but dole payments havent..........

thebman

jank wrote: »

Unfortuantely deflation like that will take years. We dont have years on hand to wait and see what the cost of living will be like. Money needs to be given to encouraging training, enterprise etc....
Cutting dole payments should also speed up the process of deflation
The wait and see attitutde is something we cant afford right now.

Real wages have fallen but dole payments havent..........

Sorry but only someone that would not be effected would suggest decreasing welfare before the cost of living reduces.

I will not be effected but I still say it should be reduced in line with the cost of living otherwise we sacrifice the most vulnerable in society in the hope to reduce a budget deficit which is quite simply not acceptable to me.

InFront

As long as deflation continues the more pertinent it becomes that dole payments should fall.
In particular I would propose:

• Changes in mean testing calculations - increase the contribution from parents as a percentage of their income to their dependents who are under the age of twenty five
• Increase the age of means testing incorporating the recipients parents income to any age whereby the individual is cohabiting with parents, except in cases where parents are dependent on social welfare as sole income
• Bring forward compulsory registration with Fas to within one week of first dole payment
• Decrease or abolish current CE scheme "waiting times" by allowing all recipients of social welfare to access them, excepting those with Levels 7/ 8 qualifications
• Continue to clamp down on dole fraud for as long as figures show it to be cost-effective
• End all payments of social welfare payments to bank accounts - compulsory signing on
• End system of postal signing on (monthly) to be replaced with signing at local social welfare office
• Abolish the rule that allows dole recipients to work on Sundays without it effecting dole payment

I think that these measures would be easy enough to introduce and would save the exchequer a significant amount of money.

jank

thebman wrote: »

Sorry but only someone that would not be effected would suggest decreasing welfare before the cost of living reduces.

I will not be effected but I still say it should be reduced in line with the cost of living otherwise we sacrifice the most vulnerable in society in the hope to reduce a budget deficit which is quite simply not acceptable to me.

I dont think you realise that the budget deficit is running in the tens of billions.

Rented Mule

jank wrote: »

I dont think you realise that the budget deficit is running in the tens of billions.

...and this is before the governement (sorry, the tax payers) absorb all of the bank debt.

NAMA is going to be the greatest scourge on this country since the famine.

Daithinski

jank wrote: »

I fail to see how we can get back on our feet as a country and not cut the dole. (One of many measures we need to take!)

I fail to see how we can get back on our feet as a country by cutting the dole.

IBEC recommended a 3% cut in dole payments in line with deflation. This would only save €400m not exactly going to save the economy is it?

- A 3% adjustment in social welfare rates in line with the reductions in the cost of living (will provide savings of €400m in 2009)

Cutting dole and rent/mortage allowance by 15% would save 2 billion. And also plunge 400,000 people into poverty. If you cut the dole by too much, (15% would be way too much) crime and civil unrest would shoot through the roof. People wouldn't be able to get by. Certainly people on the dole would stop paying mortgages/loans/bills etc. Where would that leave us?

Even 2 Billion is not the answer to Irelands financial woes.

jank wrote: »

Do you think we should borrow billions and risk bankrupting the country to pay for dole? We have the 2nd highest in europe. One can live on the dole, just...but its living not a lifestyle.

For starters its not the dole that's bankrupting the country. You can't spell bankrupt without "bank".

Its the incompetent government we've had that has make a crisis into a catastrophe.

The banks are being given 7 billion (for starters). This year. Who knows what they'll "have" to given next year, and the following years...

And then the government recently "bought" a 25% stake in AIB for a cost that is more than the combined value of AIB & BOI (3.5 billion). What a deal!

I wonder would the goverment be prepared to buy my car off me for 10 times its market value and only own a hubcap?

The government seem willing to put all the taxpayers in this country into generations of debt and think that this is a better alternative than letting the banks go bust. It seems to me we are damned either way so why not let the banks investors take the hit and then mop up the mess that follows? Is it possible to make the situation worse?

Would it not be better for the banks to go bankrupt now and for the government to keep the billions they are bailing the banks out with, than to go bankrupt later having given these billions away to investors of the banks?

jank wrote: »

If we are going to take the populist route then the IMF will be coming here sooner rather than later and trust me you dont want them to make these decisions for us as they will just cut it overnight.

It looks like the populist government is waiting for this to happen. I'm sure it would suit them just fine for the IMF to come in and make all the decisions, that way they would have somebody else to blame.

sunnyside

kadman wrote: »

Could you live on the dole, as the rates currently stand for a single person. And could you live on half of it. If you could, can you please post up how, as I,m sure many on the dole would welcome the info. I dont believe it can be done, with regards to food, heat, electric, transport for jobseeking if you live outside of a city ect.I,d be very interested in your advice, as to how its possible in normal day to day living. I,ve seen many posts that say its too high, but I,ve yet to see one that can prove it can be done, in normal day to day issues.

kadman

It's definitely possible to live on the dole as it is. 380,000 people are doing it so it's possible. I'm not on the dole but I could live on it (but not pay mortgage)

Dole=€800 a month
My household bills=€300 a month,leaving €500 a month for everything else or €125 aweek. Food €50 a week.The remaining €75 would in my case cover the car loan and petrol. Some would spend the remaining €75 on cigarettes, drink, socialising, clothes. I do admit the budget would be very tight but I could do it and did do if when I was unemployed for a bit a few years back. As a long term plan it doesn't work,there's nothing left for emergencies,holidays, upgrading cars or anything else that needs to be replaced or savings so the standard of living isn't great.

I couldn't live on half the amount. But in England dole is €64 a week as far as I know so some people are managing it but that's about enough to buy food so I wouldn't approve of having it that low.

Edited to add: I'm not suggesting people on the dole should be able to afford new cars or holidays. Definitely not,I just mean that people on the dole have to go without things they previously enjoyed. My main problem with this is that people working hard for minimum wage can't afford much more than the unemployed.

astrofool

Daithinski wrote: »

I fail to see how we can get back on our feet as a country by cutting the dole.

IBEC recommended a 3% cut in dole payments in line with deflation. This would only save €400m not exactly going to save the economy is it?

- A 3% adjustment in social welfare rates in line with the reductions in the cost of living (will provide savings of €400m in 2009)

Cutting dole and rent/mortage allowance by 15% would save 2 billion. And also plunge 400,000 people into poverty. If you cut the dole by too much, (15% would be way too much) crime and civil unrest would shoot through the roof. People wouldn't be able to get by. Certainly people on the dole would stop paying mortgages/loans/bills etc. Where would that leave us?

Even 2 Billion is not the answer to Irelands financial woes.




For starters its not the dole that's bankrupting the country. You can't spell bankrupt without "bank".

Its the incompetent government we've had that has make a crisis into a catastrophe.

The banks are being given 7 billion (for starters). This year. Who knows what they'll "have" to given next year, and the following years...

And then the government recently "bought" a 25% stake in AIB for a cost that is more than the combined value of AIB & BOI (3.5 billion). What a deal!

I wonder would the goverment be prepared to buy my car off me for 10 times its market value and only own a hubcap?

The government seem willing to put all the taxpayers in this country into generations of debt and think that this is a better alternative than letting the banks go bust. It seems to me we are damned either way so why not let the banks investors take the hit and then mop up the mess that follows? Is it possible to make the situation worse?

Would it not be better for the banks to go bankrupt now and for the government to keep the billions they are bailing the banks out with, than to go bankrupt later having given these billions away to investors of the banks?



It looks like the populist government is waiting for this to happen. I'm sure it would suit them just fine for the IMF to come in and make all the decisions, that way they would have somebody else to blame.

You seem unable to understand just why the government would put more into the banks, then the banks are worth on paper. Until you do, there is no point in arguing.

Daithinski

sunnyside wrote: »

It's definitely possible to live on the dole as it is. 380,000 people are doing it so it's possible. I'm not on the dole but I could live on it (but not pay mortgage)

Dole=€800 a month
My household bills=€300 a month,leaving €500 a month for everything else or €125 aweek. Food €50 a week.The remaining €75 would in my case cover the car loan and petrol. Some would spend the remaining €75 on cigarettes, drink, socialising, clothes. ...

You seem to have left out accommodation.

sunnyside

Daithinski wrote: »

You seem to have left out accommodation.

You seem to have forgotten the rent allowance which pays for the accomodation. I do understand that not everybody gets rent allowance. I have no children either. Everybody's circumstances are different but dole is the same amount for everyone.

Ardent

hallelujajordan wrote: »

They say that the measure of a society is how it treats its most vulnerable. . .

"I'm sorry that you are out of work, but we really cannot afford to keep you . . I am truly sorry that your children are hungry but we have books to balance and did you know that we are spending 54 Million a day more than we are getting in taxes"

How we take care of our most vulnerable should not be determined by the accountants but rather should be driven by need . . a fair system should honour PRSI payments (after all, the I stands for Insurance) . .

I think a return to the butter voucher days may be the best approach here. For example, folks on the dole get a discount on their electricity and other utility bills. The idea of people getting ~200/week to spend down in the pub doesn't sit well with me.

thebman

jank wrote: »

I dont think you realise that the budget deficit is running in the tens of billions.

I don't think you know what your talking about TBH. I think its impossible not to know about the governments deficit thanks a lot though. Lots of people just want the dole cut to make themselves feel better that the government are doing something to solve the economic crisis little realising how much money it will save or the effects on cutting it on those people being much greater than elsewhere. I'm sorry, I'd prefer to protect those people than give you a warm fuzzy feeling. :rolleyes:

There is a significant number of people not paying any tax that are above breadline that can be brought into the tax net.

At the same time you reduce dole in line with the cost of living and other decreases in net wage that will hit other people in the economy.

This should result in a decrease in prices in shops as people can't afford as much which results in the ability to make further cuts in the following budget.

Again you can't just cut the dole because a lot of those people don't have extra luxury purchases that can be cut. They will have to go without essentials which nobody should be saying will solve our economic crisis :pac:

sunnyside wrote: »

You seem to have forgotten the rent allowance which pays for the accomodation. I do understand that not everybody gets rent allowance. I have no children either. Everybody's circumstances are different but dole is the same amount for everyone.

Not everyone gets rent allowance and the amount given, never covers their rent. Everyones main expenses are expected to be paid out of the dole which is why it is the same for everyone. If people have additional needs they apply for additional benefits if they qualify for them or they do without. A lot of landlords won't accept rent allowance anyway.

You cut it in line with the cost of living and combined with the other savings from cutting in the other departments you save a significant amount of money. You can't just slash welfare, they are real peoples lives you ruin if you do, it is not just statistics like some on here like to think of it as.

Daithinski

Ardent wrote: »

I think a return to the butter voucher days may be the best approach here. For example, folks on the dole get a discount on their electricity and other utility bills. The idea of people getting ~200/week to spend down in the pub doesn't sit well with me.

I vaguely remember butter vouchers. They were as good as cash and could be used to buy anything not just butter.

kadman

sunnyside wrote: »

It's definitely possible to live on the dole as it is. 380,000 people are doing it so it's possible. I'm not on the dole but I could live on it (but not pay mortgage)

Dole=€800 a month
My household bills=€300 a month,leaving €500 a month for everything else or €125 aweek. Food €50 a week.The remaining €75 would in my case cover the car loan and petrol. Some would spend the remaining €75 on cigarettes, drink, socialising, clothes. I do admit the budget would be very tight but I could do it and did do if when I was unemployed for a bit a few years back. As a long term plan it doesn't work,there's nothing left for emergencies,holidays, upgrading cars or anything else that needs to be replaced or savings so the standard of living isn't great.

I couldn't live on half the amount. But in England dole is €64 a week as far as I know so some people are managing it but that's about enough to buy food so I wouldn't approve of having it that low.

Edited to add: I'm not suggesting people on the dole should be able to afford new cars or holidays. Definitely not,I just mean that people on the dole have to go without things they previously enjoyed. My main problem with this is that people working hard for minimum wage can't afford much more than the unemployed.

So in other words in normal day to day living, you cant live on the dole. You say the budget would be very tight, yet you support the idea of cutting the dole. If you cant participate in society in normal day to day living on the dole rate, as the criteria used by the eu, then you are living below the poverty line. If thats so, the dole is too low.

Refering to England, has absolutely nothing to do with living in Ireland. People in England on ther dole are not surviving, they are undergoing severe hardship. I speak from experience. Is that what you are advocating here. People on the dole would be happy on minimum wage, rather than the dole.

What about, heating , gas, car insurance, tax, petrol , clothes, car maintainence, phone, tv lisense, milk, medical. If you can put the figures up for all of that on 204E, then MABS would be delighted to talk to you, as you appear to have it cracked.

kadman

snubbleste

sunnyside wrote: »

You seem to have forgotten the rent allowance which pays for the accomodation. I do understand that not everybody gets rent allowance. I have no children either. Everybody's circumstances are different but dole is the same amount for everyone.

From this month, a claimant will have to contribute a minimum of €24 per week towards rent plus the allowance is being cut by 8% and it's up to the tenant to convince the landlord to reduce the rent.

Personally i would be in favour of a reduction of 20% in the maximum dole payment from e204 to e165 - the rate it was in 2006.

kadman

snubbleste wrote: »

......

Personally i would be in favour of a reduction of 20% in the maximum dole payment from e204 to e165 - the rate it was in 2006.

Why..., do you feel guilty about receiving it.

kadman

thebman

Ardent wrote: »

I think a return to the butter voucher days may be the best approach here. For example, folks on the dole get a discount on their electricity and other utility bills. The idea of people getting ~200/week to spend down in the pub doesn't sit well with me.

:rolleyes:

Well given if they were spending 200 euro a week in a pub they'd be homeless (can't pay rent) and not able to get the dole I think you can be at peace that it isn't happening.

snubbleste

kadman wrote: »

Why..., do you feel guilty about receiving it. kadman

I wish!
The reason for JA is at the current rate is because the social partners negotiated increases to a third of the average industrial wage which is what happened. However, now the average industrial wage is falling through paycuts etc., so the dole should fall in line with that.
Maximum unemployment payment rates for individual in:
2002 €118.80
2003 €124.80
2004 €134.80
2005 €148.80
2006 €165.80
2007 €185.80
2008 €197.80
2009 €204.30

kadman

snubbleste wrote: »

I wish!
The reason for JA is at the current rate is because the social partners negotiated increases to a third of the average industrial wage which is what happened. However, now the average industrial wage is falling through paycuts etc., so the dole should fall in line with that.
Maximum unemployment payment rates for individual in:
2002 €118.80
2003 €124.80
2004 €134.80
2005 €148.80
2006 €165.80
2007 €185.80
2008 €197.80
2009 €204.30

Does that mean you wish you were on JA, or are you working, or not getting any assistance at all.
The rate of dole is calculated based on criteria used by the eu. I cant understand how you can feel its ok to try to blame those unlucky enough to be on the dole, for the current financial position of the country, and then suggest to reduce their payments.
Yet there is no mention of those that are responsible .

Could you live on 204, in normal day to day living. Please post your view of how its done.

The measure of a society is based on how they look after the less well off in society. Penalising them further is not the answer. If its possible to live sufficiently on E204, why dont the working population offer to accept far lower rates of pay, in order to allow companies to employ more off the dole queues.

kadman

jank

I think some poster need to look at what I said again.

I fail to see how we can get back on our feet as a country and not cut the dole. (One of many measures we need to take!)

The dole cut in itself will not save the country but as a measure along with others might get us out of this mess.

Also the figures are striking.

Since 2002 the dole has increased by 72%........So in 7 years it has gone up by almost 3/4.....

Now cost of living has gone up too but by 72% I dont think so.

The state is generating tax on par with 2005/2006 levels. Bring the dole back down to those levels.

jank

The measure of a society is based on how they look after the less well off in society

Says who?

thebullkf

jank wrote: »

Says who?

does it matter
disagree
are you unemployed

Maintaining and improving the well-being of citizens is essentially a community responsibility and therefore a key role of both central government and local government. This has been lost sight of over the last 15 years. But it is not just a role for central and local government, we, as groups and individuals must each accept a share of the responsibility if we want to share in a “decent” society. There is a lot of truth in the saying, if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Ardent

thebman wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Well given if they were spending 200 euro a week in a pub they'd be homeless (can't pay rent) and not able to get the dole I think you can be at peace that it isn't happening.

You're assuming that everyone on the dole actually needs the money for rent or whatnot...

thebman

Ardent wrote: »

You're assuming that everyone on the dole actually needs the money for rent or whatnot...

And if your in favor of reducing it your assuming nobody needs it which is not the case.

So your in favor of some people giving up necessities to feel better about the government doing something about the financial crisis?

Your ... shows you probably haven't thought very hard about what you wrote anyway so I'll leave it at that.