Kevin Myers Article In the Indo -does he have a point?

CDfm

A female friend send me this link yesterday to Myers as usual controversial article.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/the-feminist-sirens-remained-quiet-for-the-victim-is-a-man-1728418.html
My question is does he have a point?.

Let me start by saying that I feel the woman who came forward is IMHO extremely brave and that what she did as a 10 year old should not be judged by adult standards. I have a teenage daughter who IMO is just a kid and a 10 year old has just recently made the leap to not believing in Santa.

The temptation is to look at it in terms of a gender debate or even a political debate-and I have had to step back from that myself.

What I would like to know is how women feel about this.


I will totally accept if the mods feel it nesscessary to move or even close the thread.

Johnny Utah

It's hard to choose a favorite among so many great articles, but "The feminist sirens remained quiet: For the victim is a man" is one of the best, most powerful articles ever written about self-preservation, dignity. Its universal message crosses all boundaries and instills one with the hope that it's not too late to better ourselves. Since, CDfm, it's impossible in this world we live in to empathize with others, we can always empathize with ourselves. It's an important message, crucial really. And it's beautifully stated in the article.

Porkpie

Johnny Utah wrote: »

It's hard to choose a favorite among so many great articles, but "The feminist sirens remained quiet: For the victim is a man" is one of the best, most powerful articles ever written about self-preservation, dignity. Its universal message crosses all boundaries and instills one with the hope that it's not too late to better ourselves. Since, CDfm, it's impossible in this world we live in to empathize with others, we can always empathize with ourselves. It's an important message, crucial really. And it's beautifully stated in the article.

Well done on lazily inserting a quote from the film American Psycho.

Did anyone else take this article seriously? I don't always agree with Mr Myers, but he does have some valid points here. The case of the mother who abused her son and only got 7 years was particularly alarming. Feminists fight for equality, but when it comes to sentencing for crimes committed by women why is the equality argument conveniently forgotten? I don't care what anyone says, if you falsely accuse someone of sexual abuse you deserve to face some kind of punishment, be it jail or at least a payment of compensation to the victim.

Morgase

I would describe myself as a feminist (or an egalitarian), and in the case of the mother raping her son I believe that she should be subject to the same laws as if it was a man committing the crime. That she was a woman makes the crime no less heinous imo.

As to the other case of the girl crying wolf, I'm not so sure what should be done. I don't think it is right that that man had to put up with his name being blackened for so long and that he had to jump through hoops to get his name cleared. However if the woman is punished for telling such terrible lies, will this discourage real victims from stepping forward in the future? The entire thing is saddening; all too often women are not believed and this surely didn't help.

buckieburd

TBH I think the guy is a lazy hack who appears to glean all his info from google searches.

WindSock

I wasn't aware that the Rape Crisis center is a feminist organisation that deals only with female victims..

Of course, we feminists have no sympathy for male victims, as they get what they deserve....:rolleyes:

Why doesn't Kevin Myers start a petition himself to sort out the justice system, or is he anti-male victims too?

minidazzler

I agree with alot Of Mr. Myers view's, and this is no exception, he is dead right. There would be an outcry if a similar injustice was done to a woman. The man was branded a Paedophile and a Rapist, two of the most disgusting things that a human can be guilty of. Yet noone see's this as a problem.

RCC should condemn this woman's allegation, because it cheapens real victim's allegations.

Galvasean

Although I usually disagree with Myers' writings, he makes a very good point in this article. It seems that (certain) feminist lobbiers are guilty of blatant double standards. Take the incest case cited; Why aren't they complaining that the woman in question is recieving bias for being let off so leniently for her crime purely because she is a woman? Equality has to work both ways, otherwise it is simply not equality.

edit: I think this thread might be better suited in the Humanities forum

the_syco

Porkpie wrote: »

Feminists fight for equality

I laugh at this bullsh|t. Feminists fight for better rights for women. Not all women are feminists. Men and women fight for equality.

=-=

I didn't blink when the Rape Crisis Centre, etc, didn't speak out against this. As much as they would like to, they may be afraid of alienating any women that need the RCC. At the same time, there would be outcry from them if a man had raped a young girl.

Double standards exist in the world, and we must fight to elminate them so women can be free...

Joey the lips

Kevin Myers is a waste of page space and his ranting are a contributing factor in global warming and waste of paper.... Am I extreme? Probably!

I have no time for his writings and think he is a poor excuse for a jurno the problem is I got lost twice in his rant so I had to log onto the irish examiner and try to get me head around the story.

Is the story and issue here? No! Is kevin Myers Yes! and giving him credability by discussing him is a waste of time

My apologies to the Kevin Myers Fan club I will be sure to write an apology to his brother Michael

ilkhanid

"Is the story and issue here? No! Is kevin Myers Yes! and giving him credability by discussing him is a waste of time"

Eh? Is this supposed to have some meaning? I think it might be more to the point to discuss the substance of the thread-assuming you have anything to contribute-rather than using it as an opportunity for insulting Kevin Myers.

Sleipnir

Morgase wrote: »

However if the woman is punished for telling such terrible lies, will this discourage real victims from stepping forward in the future? The entire thing is saddening; all too often women are not believed and this surely didn't help.

But....it was a total fabrication! Surely, then the message that the RCC should be perfectly able to point out is;
"real rape happens and don't be afraid to come forward. But please, don't make it up"

This is the problem, the feminists are saying she shouldn't be punished as it will discourage other women from coming forward in real rape cases, instead of saying she should be punished to discourage women from making these false claims in the first place!

So should the woman not be punished for making it up? If she isn't punished then would that not encourage women to make false claim if you just don't like a guy. Or he cheated on you or whatever.

"Make a false rape claim and blacken his name in the community and maybe his family will throw him out on the street. Sure nothing with happen to you if they find out you made it up"

Is that acceptable so long as women are not discouraged from coming forward with real cases?

Once again, the attitude seems to be;
"well yeah, that's terrible but so what? He's a man, it's not like it was a women who was wronged"

coffee_cake

I might agree it has a point if I didn't hate KM so much and his appalling "style" of writing. I can't force my poor eyes to read the crap he writes.

IIMII

Yes he has a point. Must be the 1 in 100 columns he writes that I agree with

Dudess

the_syco wrote: »

I laugh at this bullsh|t. Feminists fight for better rights for women. Not all women are feminists. Men and women fight for equality.

No, feminists fight for equality - and feminists aren't solely women. You obviously have the usual misinformed view of what a feminist is.

Macha

Yes, why don't we hound the African women's centre for not shouting from the rooftops about the murder of a non-African woman? Why don't we snort and deride when the IPCC doesn't condemn the murder of adults? etc etc ad nauseum.

The ONLY time I EVER hear anyone whinging about this is in relation to feminism. It is just such utter bull****.

CDfm

But we are not talking about african women or Kevin Myers as a journalist.

I thought he was fair on the impact gender issues have on justice.

There is also a public interest issue as to whether Womans Groups in the context that they are largely state funded influence public policy on justice and cause gender bias.

So in a sense he is saying the system has an inbuilt institutional discrimination against men which organisations funded from the public purse should not have.If this bias reversed on gender lines or was based on tace or religion it would be wrong.

So are these concerns valid ?

fly_agaric

CDfm wrote: »

My question is does he have a point?.

Not really. Why would feminist orgs be concerned with such injustices, especially ones involving a male victim/female aggressor? It's best they say nothing.

It's like expecting the trade union movement to expend their time & energy going to bat for bosses in cases where they have been wronged by their employees i.e. very unrealistic to say the least & possibly unhealthy too.

CDfm

fly_agaric wrote: »

Not really. Why would feminist orgs be concerned with such injustices, especially ones involving a male victim/female aggressor?

A Woman would be concerned as a citizen who has an interest in the justice system and public policy, as a member of a client-group of an organisation claiming to represent her or as a wife,girlfriend,mother,sister, relative or friend or supporter of a victim of a miscarriage of justice.

Many women I know as individuals hold those views- lots of posters in LL do . Why not organisations.

Macha

CDfm wrote: »

Many women I know as individuals hold those views- lots of posters in LL do . Why not organisations.

Because these organisations are usually run on thin air and a hope and a prayer. They do not have the resources to be commenting on every single injustice that happens in this world, nor is it within their remit, in most cases.

They have a mandate that they are obliged to stick to and severely limited resources, both in terms of financing and staffing, with which to fulfil that mandate.

fly_agaric

CDfm wrote: »

A Woman would be concerned as a citizen who has an interest in the justice system and public policy, as a member of a client-group of an organisation claiming to represent her or as a wife,girlfriend,mother,sister, relative or friend or supporter of a victim of a miscarriage of justice.

Many women I know as individuals hold those views- lots of posters in LL do . Why not organisations.

People can wear all these hats but organisations must focus on something.

The point you mentioned about state funding for what are lobby groups is interesting but would they not need to be actively fighting against justice in such cases for it to really be an issue? Is there evidence of that?

The state is totally at fault if it is giving these people money and somehow expecting that they won't focus on their own agenda to the exclusion of others (advancing women's rights - not protesting about cases where men suffer)

edit: maybe there is one example that could be criticised for such having such biases and/or narrow focus - the Equality Authority (since it's remit is equality and it's a public sector body rather than a group/ngo getting state funds).

ilkhanid

"Why would feminist orgs be concerned with such injustices, especially ones involving a male victim/female aggressor? It's best they say nothing."

In the other case Myers mentioned-the Cyprus one-they did concern themselves with "injustice". I remember this case and the injustice in their eyes was that the woman was punished for the false accusation. Not an iota of sympathy for the man ,even in passing. Yes, in that case, it would certainly have been best if they had said nothing.:(

CDfm

taconnol wrote: »

Because these organisations are usually run on thin air and a hope and a prayer. They do not have the resources to be commenting on every single injustice that happens in this world, nor is it within their remit, in most cases.

The have advertising and PR budgets - policy costs nothing.

They have a mandate that they are obliged to stick to and severely limited resources, both in terms of financing and staffing, with which to fulfil that mandate.

To have a mandate implies that its political.

Surely, in terms of ethos and philosophy it should be ethical.

Macha

CDfm wrote: »

The have advertising and PR budgets - policy costs nothing.

You'd better tell that to the policy departments of these organisations. Here are 2 positions being advertised just at the moment:

http://activelink.ie/ce/active.php?id=2438

http://activelink.ie/ce/active.php?id=3266

CDfm wrote: »

To have a mandate implies that its political.

Surely, in terms of ethos and philosophy it should be ethical.

No, to have a mandate suggests that you have a job to do and that you'd better get on with it, instead of faffing around on issues that are being properly dealt with by other agencies/organisations. There's already a total lack of a framework within the NGO/state agency sector resulting in a huge amount of overlap and duplication of workload. The last thing they need is someone arguing they have to comment on everything that might vaguely be considered relevant to their remit.

CDfm

fly_agaric wrote: »

People can wear all these hats but organisations must focus on something.

The state is totally at fault if it is giving these people money and somehow expecting that they won't focus on their own agenda to the exclusion of others (advancing women's rights - not protesting about cases where men suffer)

Very valid points on funding and polarisation. But its a bit more black and white than that. Its about right and wrong.

taconnol wrote: »

You'd better tell that to the policy department of these organisations. It's clear that you don't understand how they operate.



No, to have a mandate suggests that you have a job to do and that you'd better get on with it, instead of faffing around on issues that are being properly dealt with by other agencies/organisations. There's already a total lack of a framework within the NGO/state agency sector resulting in a huge amount of overlap and duplication of workload. The last thing they need is someone arguing they have to comment on everything that might vaguely be considered relevant to their remit.

Im confused -the mandate or mission is to represent womens rights. The issues raised on the application of those policies and the law and equal treatment men are not mutually exclusive.

The issues are simple and very black and white in that you would expect the organisation would want its policies applied ethically.That is fairly fundamental to the movements ethos.

Myers criticism is that this isn't the case.Should it not be the case.

thebigcheese22

Re that recent case about the mother sexually abusing her 10 year old kid, do people seriously think that it would have been the same if she was a father? The lack of coverage is an absolute disgrace.
Child abuse is sickening and wrong, regardless of gender

Macha

CDfm wrote: »

Im confused -the mandate or mission is to represent womens rights. The issues raised on the application of those policies and the law and equal treatment men are not mutually exclusive..

Myers mentions three groups and implies a whole host of others. Each organisation has a different purpose - which one are you talking about? You can't lump them all in together. And Myers just goes further into his populist ignorance by labelling them all "feminist" quangos (with the tiringly obviously negative connotations of the F-word) *yawn*

CDfm wrote: »

The issues are simple and very black and white in that you would expect the organisation would want its policies applied ethically.That is fairly fundamental to the movements ethos.

Define "ethically" and I can tell you that the most black and white thing in the world of NGOs is funding, or lack thereof. You don't think there are a hundred things they'd love to be doing that they can't because they don't have the money? So what's unethical here? Their inability to act or the state or public's unwillingness to property fund them?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Morgase wrote: »

As to the other case of the girl crying wolf, I'm not so sure what should be done. I don't think it is right that that man had to put up with his name being blackened for so long and that he had to jump through hoops to get his name cleared. However if the woman is punished for telling such terrible lies, will this discourage real victims from stepping forward in the future? The entire thing is saddening; all too often women are not believed and this surely didn't help.

No, why would it? For her to be punished it would have to be proved she made up the lies. The rapist not being convicted would not be enough to punish her.

In the case of the girl who falsely accused the soldiers the evidence would be her admission to the detective.

Great article by Myers

cuckoo

This must be a pet subject for K Myers, here's another piece he wrote in 2003:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3595195/Malicious-accusers-are-as-bad-as-rapists.html

False allegations of rape, however, are about power, for they mobilise the proper revulsion society feels about the crime against the unfortunate target. So we should protect the powerful societal taboo on rape by treating those who falsely allege rape with the severity with which we treat rapists. That is the least the true victims of rape deserve.

I agree with him about false allegations being about power - perhaps it's the lack of power that some people feel and thus they want to mobilise the State and the Guards to 'get at' someone for them?

However, i don't believe that those who willfully falsely allege rape should be treated with the same severity as those who rape. Both are crimes, both are wrong - but the use of violence and/or the threat of violence should be treated with more severity than making false allegations.

Slightly off topic: came across this today http://unahardestersmotherspeaks.blogspot.com/
claims to be a statement from the mother of the woman who made the allegations as a 10 year old that Myers mentions. From my reading of it, assuming it's legit, i'm left thinking the guards didn't perform too well in that case.

Joey the lips

ilkhanid wrote: »

"Is the story and issue here? No! Is kevin Myers Yes! and giving him credability by discussing him is a waste of time"

Eh? Is this supposed to have some meaning? I think it might be more to the point to discuss the substance of the thread-assuming you have anything to contribute-rather than using it as an opportunity for insulting Kevin Myers.

Like you sunshine I dont always agree with kevin myers so I to am entitled to insult him was it not you that said this in after hours

"Kevin Myers had a piece about it in todays Indo. I don't always agree with him-to say the least-but this is spot on. He mentioned that other case that I referred to earlier. It happened in Cyprus. Little sympathy for the falsely accused man there either."

I have the right like many to say what I wish especially when it seems I am agreed with. I also dislike sen norris in the times between both of them they have more tabloid space then the sun star and mirror put together

SWL

Morgase wrote: »

I would describe myself as a feminist (or an egalitarian), and in the case of the mother raping her son I believe that she should be subject to the same laws as if it was a man committing the crime. That she was a woman makes the crime no less heinous imo.

As to the other case of the girl crying wolf, I'm not so sure what should be done. I don't think it is right that that man had to put up with his name being blackened for so long and that he had to jump through hoops to get his name cleared. However if the woman is punished for telling such terrible lies, will this discourage real victims from stepping forward in the future? The entire thing is saddening; all too often women are not believed and this surely didn't help.

That’s right don't do anything to her, she was probably under stress or having a bad day, bad luck on the poor sod who was branded a rapist and paedophile while loosing any right to freedom, having to do time with other sex offenders, and the oh so slight problem of emotional turmoil thrown in for good measure, not knowing how or what the future held, as for his family well what about them.

How the ****s will a woman who put a man through all of the above not receive some punishment? your aggurment of it discouraging real victims from coming forward is total bull**** as well, as for women not been believed start with blaming the women who make up fairytales with real consequences on some one life, not the victim in this case the MAN.

That’s of course if you are a feminist in the real sense of the word equality of all.