N40 - Cork City Northern Transportation Project (formerly North Ring Road) [feasibility study]

hans aus dtschl

I really don't know what to make of this one. There will probably need to be a distributor as well as a bypass if a road's to go ahead, but there really doesn't seem to be any discussion of that: it's all just a discussion of "the" road. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I really don't know what to make of this one. There will probably need to be a distributor as well as a bypass if a road's to go ahead, but there really doesn't seem to be any discussion of that: it's all just a discussion of "the" road. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

No discussion of the distributor?

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

No discussion of the distributor?

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear, so bear with me!

I'm saying any M40 North will probably (or at least should probably) only have a small amount of junctions.
There will be a need for a road or group of roads within that boundary, to distribute traffic through the Northside.

I realise that the existing North Ring Road will serve that purpose within the city boundary, and I don't have a question about that.
But in the Upper Glanmire, Whites Cross, Whitechirch, Blarney arc, there's very poor East-West connectivity at present. It's mostly very narrow boreens.

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear, so bear with me!

I'm saying any M40 North will probably (or at least should probably) only have a small amount of junctions.
There will be a need for a road or group of roads within that boundary, to distribute traffic through the Northside.

I realise that the existing North Ring Road will serve that purpose within the city boundary, and I don't have a question about that.
But in the Upper Glanmire, Whites Cross, Whitechirch, Blarney arc, there's very poor East-West connectivity at present. It's mostly very narrow boreens.

I completely agree here. The original NRR plan back in the 2000s seems to have been a hybrid bypass/distributor akin to what the existing N40 SRR has become. Now it seems that the new North Ring will be a pure bypass (perhaps only 1 junction with the M20) and the proposed Northern Distributor will be used for local traffic.

One issue I can see happening is congestion around the 2 M20 junctions (with the NRR and NDR) if the M20 becomes the single point of transit between the NDR, NRR and the city.

We should get clarity on the NDR routing and junctions soon as it’s at the route selection stage. The NRR will take longer.

Perhaps a new link road from the area around Apple to the new road and a new link road from Mayfield/Tivoli but that would just encourage sprawl and long distance commuting. The Port moving out of Tivoli would also negate the need for increased connectivity to that area.

hans aus dtschl

Yeah as I see it the strategic need is for the NRR, because we need to get the "Limerick to Ringaskiddy" corridor sorted.
The NDR is still going to be needed though, or you'll get haphazard and disjointed development within the NRR.

I'd like to see a Blarney P&R in place and operational at the time of completion of any new road though, accessed directly from the NRR or M20. A high frequency service might then alleviate some of the congestion at the NDR/M20 junction. I'd hope for a strategic bus corridor East-West also, as part of the NDR. This bus corridor should have better transit times than private vehicles, ideally. So I'd see that NDR as quite a significant piece of required infrastructure.

Shedite27

Yeah the new road seems to primarily aim to take trucks out of the City (and to some extent SRR), and presumably a good chunk of the traffic too. Some of the trucks going around the current NRR are way out of place. I'm hoping this will do for Cork, what the tunnel has done for Dublin.

But yes it still doesn't solve things like how to link Apple to the road. Was it urban legend that Kerry Group paid (or contributed to) have a junction installed on their doorstep on the M7?

quietsailor

Here's the picture from the examiner article showing the Ring road and Distribution road. I've always struggled to get my head around the difference between them so this helps.

marno21

I already have a pain in my head thinking about some of the objections that’ll be coming into the three proposed routes in that image (NRR, NDR, SDR)

The NDR is going to get a pasting at the Lee Fields, the NRR is going to attract opposition from the residents near the Ballincollig-N40 routing (even though the route around there was decided before many of the houses in the area were built) and the SDR is going to attract similar opposition as the BusConnects proposals in Dublin and around Dennehy’s Cross.

The M28 being a prime example of this to date

Markcheese

Is the northern distributor a completely new road ? Or using part of the current north ring ?

There are some serious slopes to be navigated with those roads ..

KrisW1001

Comparing that diagram with a better map of Cork, the only part of NDR that follows an existing road is the easternmost section, from Tivoli to the Glen. From there, it will continue northward (the existing NRR turns west here), and only swing westwards once it passes Ballyvolane. It then looks like it takes a line that will bring it north of the Kilbarry industrial park, and cross the N20 at the Lower Killeens junction, heading South-west, and finally turning South just at the northwest corner of the Apple site.

Connection to the N22 looks like it's roughly at the car-park for the Lee Fields, at the narrowest part of the park.

The NDR is not a motorway, and may not even be a 2+2. It's a road for local commercial traffic, so there will be footpaths, lights, and pedestrian crossings. As such, there will be a lot less objection to it - especially from residents on the North West side of the city who have terrible access to anywhere South, East or West of them.

marno21

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Comparing that diagram with a better map of Cork, the only part of NDR that follows an existing road is the easternmost section, from Tivoli to the Glen. From there, it will continue northward (the existing NRR turns west here), and only swing westwards once it passes Ballyvolane. It then looks like it takes a line that will bring it north of the Kilbarry industrial park, and cross the N20 at the Lower Killeens junction, heading South-west, and finally turning South just at the northwest corner of the Apple site.

Connection to the N22 looks like it's roughly at the car-park for the Lee Fields, at the narrowest part of the park.

The NDR is not a motorway, and may not even be a 2+2. It's a road for local commercial traffic, so there will be footpaths, lights, and pedestrian crossings. As such, there will be a lot less objection to it - especially from residents on the North West side of the city who have terrible access to anywhere South, East or West of them.

I believe the current plan for the NDR at a high level is 1 general traffic Lane and 1 bus Lane in either direction plus pedestrian/cyclist facilities. Signalised junctions.

Shedite27

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Comparing that diagram with a better map of Cork, the only part of NDR that follows an existing road is the easternmost section, from Tivoli to the Glen. From there, it will continue northward (the existing NRR turns west here), and only swing westwards once it passes Ballyvolane. It then looks like it takes a line that will bring it north of the Kilbarry industrial park, and cross the N20 at the Lower Killeens junction, heading South-west, and finally turning South just at the northwest corner of the Apple site.

Replace "the Glen" with Mayfield and that's my reading of it too.

I assume that's just a indicative map though, final routing will change a bit I'd say

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

I believe the current plan for the NDR at a high level is 1 general traffic Lane and 1 bus Lane in either direction plus pedestrian/cyclist facilities. Signalised junctions.

Yep that's why it's on my "high priority" list. It's really hard to travel East-West on the northside at present. This would be a game changer. But I think it needs the simultaneous NRR.
It'd be a priority bus corridor too as far as I remember.

KrisW1001

Shedite27 wrote: »

Replace "the Glen" with Mayfield and that's my reading of it too.

I assume that's just a indicative map though, final routing will change a bit I'd say

You're right, Mayfield - the new road will cross the Glen river there, but doesn't go near "The Glen" itself.

If you look at aerial photos, there's an undeveloped corridor of land all along the route, and in several places, there's not a lot of leeway either side of that corridor.

@marno21 - a proper bus provision would be great on this road. The Northside is very poorly served by bus, but the geography of the streets is a big barrier to improving that.

hans aus dtschl

CMATS has it as a priority corridor alright.
See attachments below.
Page 63 and 64 of CMATS.

It's a little vague on details, but the concept is there.

On the roads section:
The Cork Northern Distributor Road
CMATS requires additional road network infrastructure on the north side of Cork City to cater for access to planned
development lands, provide walking and cycling linkages, access to radial public transport routes, orbital public transport provision, and the removal of some strategic traffic from Cork City Centre. This new road will be in the form of a distributor road referred to as the Cork Northern Distributor Road (CNDR). This is distinct from the Cork
North Ring Road (CNRR) outlined above, the case for which will be examined by Transport Infrastructure Ireland.
The Cork Northern Distributor Road is a short-term objective and considered to be a ‘critical enabler’ for CMATS as it:
ƒ Creates opportunities for sustainable development of existing land banks in the Northern Cork Metropolitan
area including Monard SDZ and the Ballyvollane Urban Expansion Area;
ƒ Facilitates the rollout of sustainable transport measures including public transport services for the North Cork
Metropolitan City area;
ƒ Facilitates the introduction of a HGV ban within the City Centre;
ƒ Serves the requirements of local traffic demand in the northern CMA: and
ƒ Allows for the downgrading of national routes entering Cork City, which can therefore allow for the prioritisation of
sustainable modes on these routes.
An indicative cross-section of the CNDR is provided below.
The Cork Northern Distributor Road will provide for orbital movement for bus, pedestrian, cycle and some strategic and general traffic and reduce reliance on radial routes through the city centre. CMATS proposes that the NDR would provide connectivity at its western end to join the existing N22. To achieve this, the link would need to address several topographical and environmental considerations including the River Lee and its associated floodplain, the
requirement for a new bridge and a desire to avoid severing the Lee Fields parklands.
Further assessment of the final alignment will be needed to address these concerns and the requirement to provide orbital connectivity between Cork’s Northside and key destinations including CUH, CIT, Blackpool and Tivoli Docks.

AugustusMinimus

From previous draft documents:

The good news:
- A partially unrolled cloverleaf junction is planned for the M20-M40 junction
- A trumpet is likely for the M8-M40 junction

The bad news:
- A signalised roundabout for the N22-M40 junction

The unknown:
- What on earth is the plan around the Poulovone Roundabout area. Especially the existing road between the Poulovone Roundabout and the N22-R618 junction?

kub

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

From previous draft documents:

The good news:
- A partially unrolled cloverleaf junction is planned for the M20-M40 junction
- A trumpet is likely for the M8-M40 junction

The bad news:
- A signalised roundabout for the N22-M40 junction

The unknown:
- What on earth is the plan around the Poulovone Roundabout area. Especially the existing road between the Poulovone Roundabout and the N22-R618 junction?

With reference to the N 22 - M 40 junction, that seems ridiculous as what is there currently is far superior to a roundabout.


There i was thinking that someone actually successfully thought ahead with the current dual carriageway between the N22 and Poulovone.


By any chance are they going to make that strip part of the M 40 and signalise the Poulovone Roundabout ?

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The bad news:
- A signalised roundabout for the N22-M40 junction

The unknown:
- What on earth is the plan around the Poulovone Roundabout area. Especially the existing road between the Poulovone Roundabout and the N22-R618 junction?

Remember that the old plans are out the window now, it will be from scratch.

I presume that the M22/M40 junction will be a freeflow one. Before, it was to be a dual carriageway/dual carriageway intersection. Now it'll presumably be a motorway/motorway intersection

Re: Poulavone. I agree completely. There has been extra housing added around there in recent years making the situation worse. The proximity of the Lee further complicates things and whatever option is taken there will be lots of disquiet. The Carriganarra Road OB will have to be demolished too as it's 2+2 under that bridge. Housing upto the road on both sides there too making life difficult.

Chris_5339762

The parclo for the CNRR/M20 was nice but I don't think concrete plans for the western section (M20 to Ballincollig) were ever advanced enough as its a more expensive and terrain heavy section.

I think there would be war if there was a signallised roundabout included, after Kinsale Road, Sarsfield Road, Bandon Road and Dunkettle all needed upgrading.

AugustusMinimus

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The parclo for the CNRR/M20 was nice but I don't think concrete plans for the western section (M20 to Ballincollig) were ever advanced enough as its a more expensive and terrain heavy section.

I think there would be war if there was a signallised roundabout included, after Kinsale Road, Sarsfield Road, Bandon Road and Dunkettle all needed upgrading.

Must dig out the original plans. The N22 junction involved building a second bridge and turning it into a N7-M50 style junction from back in the day.

EDIt: I had uploaded pictures to tinypic but they have all now be removed.

I mentioned in a previous post that the original plan was to tunnel under the Poulovone roundabout which is an interesting solution.

riddlinrussell

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I mentioned in a previous post that the original plan was to tunnel under the Poulovone roundabout which is an interesting solution.

Something like the Broadway roundabout in Belfast where the M1 transitions to the Westlink? Interesting!

hans aus dtschl

I like that type of design, where it's possible. It's more expensive but seems to allow easier integration of sustainable transport modes after.

marno21

Engineering consultants to be appointed for route selection for this scheme in Q1 2021.

For reference, this is the proposed study area:



Quite large study area for the Northern ring road that includes Ballinhassig, Carrigaline, Cobh and Whitegate!

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

Engineering consultants to be appointed for route selection for this scheme in Q1 2021.

For reference, this is the proposed study area:


Quite large study area for the Northern ring road that includes Ballinhassig, Carrigaline, Cobh and Whitegate!

It is large but I think that's good.
Whitegate and Cobh people I know use that corridor frequently.

Chris_5339762

I think they need to be bulletproof on this one so they should take it all into account... the last thing we need is an M20 dumping traffic in Blackpool and a N40 CNRR languishing.

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

It is large but I think that's good.
Whitegate and Cobh people I know use that corridor frequently.

The study area above is where the route could actually go on the ground. I can't see the NRR being routed through Whitegate!

On the other hand, it does raise the interesting possibility of there being a link from the M8-N25 or the N40-N71. They are both in the study area and if there wasn't consideration being given to some of that the study area would be much smaller.

Chris_5339762

I've often wondered that... whether the CNRR should intercept the M8 at Glanmire and then continue to, say, Carrigtwohill or perhaps Glounthaune. It would provide good redundancy and take pressure off Dunkettle (upgrade or not).

Plus, selfishly, it would be extremely useful to me.

Realistically the route options will be a massive pile of spaghetti with all of these options but will end up being the simple N22 - N20 - M8 that was sketched out many years ago.

Bongoboy22

How does one add a jpg to a post would anyone be able to advise an old fart, please?

spacetweek

Bongoboy22 wrote: »

How does one add a jpg to a post would anyone be able to advise an old fart, please?

While composing your reply, scroll down to Additional Options and click Manage Attachments.

Limerick74

First steps taken in development of Cork's Northern Ring Road
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40303382.html