N40 - Cork City Northern Transportation Project (formerly North Ring Road) [feasibility study]

Aontachtoir

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Will they leave a wide median though? I don't agree with building narrow medians for this reason and bridges would have to be ripped up. Much cheaper long term to have a wide median.

No idea. We don't have any plans yet.

marno21

Tim Cook is in town today and was in Dublin with Leo yesterday. I have absolutely no doubt that this subject was discussed.

marno21

Shane Ross wrote:

However, I would like to explain that there are two separate road proposals to alleviate traffic congestion for the north Cork City area.These two options are outlined below:-

- Under the National Development Plan (NDP) there is a reference to a North Ring Road linking the N20 to Dunkettle.The Cork North Ring Road is a complementary scheme to the M20 and consideration of the North Ring Road can best be assessed as part of an overall transport strategy for the metropolitan Cork area which would include the examination of public transport and demand management options.

- The other option is the provision of a Cork Northern Distributor Road which is being considered under the Cork Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy (CMATS).

The Cork Northern Distributor Road will be appraised first and after that consideration will be given to the need for the proposed North Ring Road. Any question of funding will be evaluated in the context of those appraisals.

There are no words for this level of out and out incompetence.

Just build the fúcking thing.

BelfastVanMan

marno21 wrote: »

Shane Ross wrote:

However, I would like to explain that there are two separate road proposals to alleviate traffic congestion for the north Cork City area.These two options are outlined below:-

- Under the National Development Plan (NDP) there is a reference to a North Ring Road linking the N20 to Dunkettle.The Cork North Ring Road is a complementary scheme to the M20 and consideration of the North Ring Road can best be assessed as part of an overall transport strategy for the metropolitan Cork area which would include the examination of public transport and demand management options.

- The other option is the provision of a Cork Northern Distributor Road which is being considered under the Cork Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy (CMATS).

The Cork Northern Distributor Road will be appraised first and after that consideration will be given to the need for the proposed North Ring Road. Any question of funding will be evaluated in the context of those appraisals.

There are no words for this level of out and out incompetence.

Just build the fúcking thing.

In strong agreement, there.

snotboogie

https://twitter.com/eoinbearla/status/1067147606600704000?s=21

https://twitter.com/eoinbearla/status/1067148209787727872?s=21

Our representatives.....

marno21

snotboogie wrote: »

https://twitter.com/eoinbearla/status/1067147606600704000?s=21

https://twitter.com/eoinbearla/status/1067148209787727872?s=21

Our representatives.....

TII have a point here. The South Ring has been ruined by being a distributor road (the lack of an actual distributor road on the southside is a major factor here) but between Ballincollig and Glanmire I would have only an exit for Apple/Knocknaheeney, M20 exit and perhaps an R614 exit.

If you have 10 exits on the NRR it only becomes another low density congested sprawl.

AugustusMinimus

marno21 wrote: »

TII have a point here. The South Ring has been ruined by being a distributor road (the lack of an actual distributor road on the southside is a major factor here) but between Ballincollig and Glanmire I would have only an exit for Apple/Knocknaheeney, M20 exit and perhaps an R614 exit.

If you have 10 exits on the NRR it only becomes another low density congested sprawl.

Junction around the Poulavone Roundabout for Ballincollig too.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Junction around the Poulavone Roundabout for Ballincollig too.

Definitely I was just posting about the "greenfield" part of the route (assuming the old route is retained).

There will be issues with space at Poulavone, what to do with the roundabout between Poulavone and Curraheen and what they will do at Curraheen.

If someone grows a pair of balls and pushes for an N71 upgrade in the next number of years tieing it into a 4 way partially unrolled cloverleaf at Curraheen would be smart. Unfortunately I think that would be pushing ambition a bit too far. Lets go with a grade seperated roundabout

marno21

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Minister-quizzed-over-plans-for-a-Northern-Ring-Road-c9fe000e-5583-45dd-8074-29174aca58a8-ds

Next time I'm sitting in a log jam around Mayfield I'll be happy about the "reference in the National Development Plan."

Tim Cook will be absolutely delighted with that news too.

highwaymaniac

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

There were 3 further junctions in planning.

Poulavone, Hollyhill and R614. In truth that’s not many junctions. Plenty of space between each junction.

If there isn’t a junction for Ballincollig at Poulavone how do you deal with local traffic given the current section between N22 and Poulavone will be integrated into this scheme.

Should be an outer ring, should seek to avoid local traffic using it. Hollyhill and R614 junctions just plain stupid, lemmings over a cliff, have we learned nothing?!!

AugustusMinimus

It has to be useful too. A balance need to be struck.

Completely ignoring accessibility to Corks biggest employer would be some slap in the face after the Athenry debacle.

highwaymaniac

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It has to be useful too. A balance need to be struck.

Completely ignoring accessibility to Corks biggest employer would be some slap in the face after the Athenry debacle.

Disagree, should be strategic inter urban traffic only, completely their choice to expand in their current location.

AugustusMinimus

highwaymaniac wrote: »

Disagree, should be strategic inter urban traffic only, completely their choice to expand in their current location.

It’ll still be used for local traffic. It would just mean longer distances being driven with potentially even more traffic due to more car miles on average.

EdgeCase

It needs to be a distributor. It's supposed to be part of the Cork City Ring. This smacks of down-the-country-ism. There's no easy way to get around the north side of the city.

Could you imagine a suggestion than the M50 north was built with hardly any exits with the concept being it linked Belfast to Limerick.

It'll be a total waste of money and frankly another insulting slap in the face to the north side which already has very poor infrastructure compared to the Southside.

Charles Babbage

EdgeCase wrote: »

Could you imagine a suggestion than the M50 north was built with hardly any exits with the concept being it linked Belfast to Limerick.

THe M50 north has 3 exits on national routes and only one which isn't a national route.

highwaymaniac

EdgeCase wrote: »

It needs to be a distributor. It's supposed to be part of the Cork City Ring. This smacks of down-the-country-ism. There's no easy way to get around the north side of the city.

Could you imagine a suggestion than the M50 north was built with hardly any exits with the concept being it linked Belfast to Limerick.

It'll be a total waste of money and frankly another insulting slap in the face to the north side which already has very poor infrastructure compared to the Southside.

Completely disagree. If built as a distributor it will undoubtedly in time become like the N40 & the M50 clogged with commuter traffic. That's not the stated purpose of a national road.

There may be a case for a regional road distributor road as well but it should never be a national road.

EdgeCase

Well I suppose the option is just don't develop the Northside and have huge commute distances from towns along the future limerick motorway, which is exactly what will happen.

More CO2, more long commutes, low density, undermining of denser urban development and ensure low minimal environmental and social sustainability.

Is it the Cork Northern Ring or not? Sounds to me more like it's going to be a line on a map.

highwaymaniac

EdgeCase wrote: »

Well I suppose the option is just don't develop the Northside and have huge commute distances from towns along the future limerick motorway, which is exactly what will happen.

More CO2, more long commutes, low density, undermining of denser urban development and ensure low minimal environmental and social sustainability.

Is it the Cork Northern Ring or not? Sounds to me more like it's going to be a line on a map.

Doesn't matter what it is called. Development should focus on areas that don't need national road Infrastructure, ie docklands and Tivoli. More junctions would attract more commuter traffic. Junctions have a finite capacity. Far from a line on the map it will be a strategic route, replacing the failed N40 which is regularly a car park.

marno21

J12 Glanmire (R639)
J13 Mayfield/White's Cross (R614)
J14 Limerick (M20)
J15 Hollyhill Link Road
J16 Ballincollig (R608)

Would everyone be happy with that?

There will be an issue with the roundabout on the Poulavone-N22 dual carriageway, but that could be replaced with an overpass.

AugustusMinimus

marno21 wrote: »

J12 Glanmire (R639)
J13 Mayfield/White's Cross (R614)
J14 Limerick (M20)
J15 Hollyhill Link Road
J16 Ballincollig (R608)

Would everyone be happy with that?

There will be an issue with the roundabout on the Poulavone-N22 dual carriageway, but that could be replaced with an overpass.

I’d agree with that. There’s plenty of space between all junctions to eliminate merging issues which is the N40s biggest problem.

Junctions should also be built to the highest standard possible.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I’d agree with that. There’s plenty of space between all junctions to eliminate merging issues which is the N40s biggest problem.

Junctions should also be built to the highest standard possible.

Indeed if you look at the existing South Ring between Bishopstown and Bloomfield, 7 junctions along there is far too much, that's a 7km stretch. Granted the Douglas East is only a slip road and Douglas West is only a half junction, along with the collector/distributor setup at J3/J4 and J5/J6.

Shedite27

EdgeCase wrote: »

It needs to be a distributor. It's supposed to be part of the Cork City Ring. This smacks of down-the-country-ism. There's no easy way to get around the north side of the city.

Could you imagine a suggestion than the M50 north was built with hardly any exits with the concept being it linked Belfast to Limerick.

It'll be a total waste of money and frankly another insulting slap in the face to the north side which already has very poor infrastructure compared to the Southside.

Where would you like to have extra junctions? And what trips do you think it would replace?

I live on the northside (Mayfield). The ring road is gonna be so far north for me it's not gonna impact any of my local journeys. It''l just be used to get to the M8 or M20. I can't see any local journeys that are gonna be replaced by this (rightly), it will just make it easier to get around Mayfield/Ballyvolane/Blackpool

highwaymaniac

marno21 wrote: »

J12 Glanmire (R639)
J13 Mayfield/White's Cross (R614)
J14 Limerick (M20)
J15 Hollyhill Link Road
J16 Ballincollig (R608)

Would everyone be happy with that?

There will be an issue with the roundabout on the Poulavone-N22 dual carriageway, but that could be replaced with an overpass.

That's far too many junctions in my view and would be to the detremint of the national road network if built and would only reinforce the high level of car dependency in the city.

Take the M7 around Limerick, has 4 junctions and two halfs so 5 full junctions in 17km and thats without a northern ring road. I very much doubt that TII would permit that number of junctions, they are accutely aware of the deficiencies of the N40 SRR.

If you could justify that a northern distributor around Cork as part of sustainable development and increasing public transport usage then by all means built it as a regional road, but who is going to fund it?? Not the NTA that's for sure.

The debate here I think can be summarised by asking the question - should the N40 NRR's primary purpose be a northern distributor road, an outer orbital
strategic route only or a combined version of both? The answer to that will determine the amount of junctions.

Shedite27

highwaymaniac wrote: »

That's far too many junctions in my view and would be to the detremint of the national road network if built and would only reinforce the high level of car dependency in the city.

Take the M7 around Limerick, has 4 junctions and two halfs so 5 full junctions in 17km and thats without a northern ring road. I very much doubt that TII would permit that number of junctions, they are accutely aware of the deficiencies of the N40 SRR.

If you could justify that a northern distributor around Cork as part of sustainable development and increasing public transport usage then by all means built it as a regional road, but who is going to fund it?? Not the NTA that's for sure.

The debate here I think can be summarised by asking the question - should the N40 NRR's primary purpose be a northern distributor road, an outer orbital
strategic route only or a combined version of both? The answer to that will determine the amount of junctions.

Think what Marno is proposing is the minimum, you need to be able to get onto the road too. The first and last junctions are just the start and end points of the road, the M20 is a requirement, so it's really just one other area in each segment, which it can well support.

Both areas are geographically very close to the city (similar distance to Douglas), but severly under populated, lots of green space and ideal for expanding the city with neighbourhoods that would be ideal for public transport in the future.

marno21

highwaymaniac wrote: »

That's far too many junctions in my view and would be to the detremint of the national road network if built and would only reinforce the high level of car dependency in the city.

Take the M7 around Limerick, has 4 junctions and two halfs so 5 full junctions in 17km and thats without a northern ring road. I very much doubt that TII would permit that number of junctions, they are accutely aware of the deficiencies of the N40 SRR.

If you could justify that a northern distributor around Cork as part of sustainable development and increasing public transport usage then by all means built it as a regional road, but who is going to fund it?? Not the NTA that's for sure.

The debate here I think can be summarised by asking the question - should the N40 NRR's primary purpose be a northern distributor road, an outer orbital
strategic route only or a combined version of both? The answer to that will determine the amount of junctions.

Limerick is a smaller city, and already has a distributor road paralleling the M7.

Congestion on the M7 now is starting to focus around the junctions because too many people are trying to use a limited pool of access points. M7/N24 being the primary issue here. J28 is also a mess because it's trying to do too much for a simple grade seperated roundabout.

I don't consider 5 junctions on the NRR to be too much. Two of them already exist (N22/R608 & M8/R639). One junction between Ballincollig and Kileens and one junction between Killeens and Killydonoghue is not too much to ask. Just ensure that the areas around them aren't used to reckless development.

AugustusMinimus

marno21 wrote: »

Limerick is a smaller city, and already has a distributor road paralleling the M7.

Congestion on the M7 now is starting to focus around the junctions because too many people are trying to use a limited pool of access points. M7/N24 being the primary issue here. J28 is also a mess because it's trying to do too much for a simple grade seperated roundabout.

I don't consider 5 junctions on the NRR to be too much. Two of them already exist (N22/R608 & M8/R639). One junction between Ballincollig and Kileens and one junction between Killeens and Killydonoghue is not too much to ask. Just ensure that the areas around them aren't used to reckless development.

Reduction in junctions as you say will create more traffic on the existing ones. More miles driven to access fewer junctions ultimately resulting in even more traffic.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Reduction in junctions as you say will create more traffic on the existing ones. More miles driven to access fewer junctions ultimately resulting in even more traffic.

Especially when the roads leading to the junctions aren't upgraded and become even more congested. And won't be upgraded.

highwaymaniac

marno21 wrote: »

Limerick is a smaller city, and already has a distributor road paralleling the M7.

Congestion on the M7 now is starting to focus around the junctions because too many people are trying to use a limited pool of access points. M7/N24 being the primary issue here. J28 is also a mess because it's trying to do too much for a simple grade seperated roundabout.

I don't consider 5 junctions on the NRR to be too much. Two of them already exist (N22/R608 & M8/R639). One junction between Ballincollig and Kileens and one junction between Killeens and Killydonoghue is not too much to ask. Just ensure that the areas around them aren't used to reckless development.

I certainly wouldn't add any more junctions on the M7. It's not the cost of the junctions I'm against I just cannot see the strategic justifcition for connecting the regional roads and the areas served by them as you described above to the proposed N40 NRR.

marno21

highwaymaniac wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't add any more junctions on the M7. It's not the cost of the junctions I'm against I just cannot see the strategic justifcition for connecting the regional roads and the areas served by them as you described above to the proposed N40 NRR.

Because (from my point of view), if you don't put those junctions onto the NRR, it won't have the effect of stopping the people living near the junctions from using the NRR, it'll just concentrate more traffic on the routes from those areas to the junctions that will be built.

AugustusMinimus

Here are issues with the SRR that I feel won’t be repeated with the NRR.

1. There are only 2 crossing points over the SRR which do not have access to the SRR itself. Togher and the Waterfall Road. This is not near enough. Have SRR access leads to huge tailbacks on these roads. For a lot of routes, it’s actually faster to use the SRR itself due to tailbacks on routes crossing it.

This won’t happen on the NRR as less junctions.

2. South or North of the SRR, there is no East - West Road to talk of. This forces huge amounts of traffic onto the SRR. Trying going from Rochestown to Bishopstown court without using the SRR or without going north of it.

On the north side, there is the old NRR and the Blackpool bypass which will also help.