N40 - Cork City Northern Transportation Project (formerly North Ring Road) [feasibility study]

AugustusMinimus

Routing would be interesting for 2 reasons.

1. Hilly terrain.
2. Where do you put the N25 junction. The Cobh Junction would be ideal but is too crowded and too much development has taken place. Can’t be closer to Cork due to the sea itself.

That leaves somewhere between Carrigtowhill and Midleton which IMO isn’t great either.

hans aus dtschl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Routing would be interesting for 2 reasons.

1. Hilly terrain.
2. Where do you put the N25 junction. The Cobh Junction would be ideal but is too crowded and too much development has taken place. Can’t be closer to Cork due to the sea itself.

That leaves somewhere between Carrigtowhill and Midleton which IMO isn’t great either.

I honestly don't know if that link is needed for the foreseeable future. I'd prefer not to see it being done, in favour of greater public transport and density within the M8.

However if it is, then the logical thing to me would be an interchange at Brooklodge, where there's already some space available at either side of the M20. Going East from Sarsfield's Court is tough terrain.

Using the Killacloyne valley to link down to the North of Carrigtwohill could work if you upgrade the Cobh Junction. However, this would also provide something of a local bypass of Glanmire: I don't think it should be done.

marno21

While it is understood that CMATS will class the proposed Northern Ring Road as a long-term strategic goal, it is expected to recommend upgrades to several existing roads, including improved interconnections to the existing N40 South Ring Road.

The North Ring Road is like nuclear fusion. Always a long term strategic goal (whatever the **** that's supposed to mean)

marno21

More information. According to CMATS, TII will examine a link between Dunkettle and the M20 as part of the M20 scheme appraisal. It will be an independent scheme not advanced as part of the M20 scheme, and will not be prioritised ahead of other public transport projects in the Cork area. It also seems to indicate that the NRR will be assessed in its entirety (e.g. M8 to N22)

The primary objective of CMATS will be to finalise a route corridor and protect it from development. The NRR will be implemented in the later stages of the strategy (the strategy is 2019-2038 or so)

Map of Cork 2040 roads, including the "Northern Distributor Road" mentioned here before: https://i.imgur.com/nl9TBZx.png

More details on National Roads in Cork: https://i.imgur.com/p39rfVX.png

Limerick74

marno21 wrote: »

More information. According to CMATS, TII will examine a link between Dunkettle and the M20 as part of the M20 scheme appraisal. It will be an independent scheme not advanced as part of the M20 scheme, and will not be prioritised ahead of other public transport projects in the Cork area. It also seems to indicate that the NRR will be assessed in its entirety (e.g. M8 to N22)

The primary objective of CMATS will be to finalise a route corridor and protect it from development. The NRR will be implemented in the later stages of the strategy (the strategy is 2019-2038 or so)

Map of Cork 2040 roads, including the "Northern Distributor Road" mentioned here before: https://i.imgur.com/nl9TBZx.png

More details on National Roads in Cork: https://i.imgur.com/p39rfVX.png

What is the source of your CMATS data?

marno21

Limerick74 wrote: »

What is the source of your CMATS data?

The Cork developments thread over in the Cork City forum. It looks fairly legitimate to me.

AugustusMinimus

marno21 wrote: »

More information. According to CMATS, TII will examine a link between Dunkettle and the M20 as part of the M20 scheme appraisal. It will be an independent scheme not advanced as part of the M20 scheme, and will not be prioritised ahead of other public transport projects in the Cork area. It also seems to indicate that the NRR will be assessed in its entirety (e.g. M8 to N22)

The primary objective of CMATS will be to finalise a route corridor and protect it from development. The NRR will be implemented in the later stages of the strategy (the strategy is 2019-2038 or so)

Map of Cork 2040 roads, including the "Northern Distributor Road" mentioned here before: https://i.imgur.com/nl9TBZx.png

More details on National Roads in Cork: https://i.imgur.com/p39rfVX.png

Is that a new distributor road south of the current SRR? Badly needed.

Chris_5339762

Oh dear.... that means M20 running into Blackpool and traffic pottering through Ballyvolane on the way to the M8. Terrible decision if they don't include that bit of North Ring in the M20 plans.

spacetweek

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Is that a new distributor road south of the current SRR? Badly needed.

It is, but seems to just consist of Grange Road and Rochestown Road the R849 through Wilton. Not much of an upgrade really.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

It is, but seems to just consist of Grange Road and Rochestown Road the R849 through Wilton. Not much of an upgrade really.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110212153

Thread for it here, but it will involve completing missing links along the route, especially the East-West link at Douglas. In addition, they seem to be proposing it to be a multi modal road with bus and cycling facilities also.

marno21

City Council to request meeting with Taoiseach regarding North Ring

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cork-Northern-Ring-Road-hope-at-last-5fc67e67-d27b-429b-9e11-097e19bf807d-ds

Cork Trucker

marno21 wrote: »

City Council to request meeting with Taoiseach regarding North Ring

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cork-Northern-Ring-Road-hope-at-last-5fc67e67-d27b-429b-9e11-097e19bf807d-ds

Canty needs to pick up the phone to Coveney then if he’s backing Gould’s motion. In what order should these roads be built if it were an ideal world?

M20/NRR together?
Dunkettle followed by M28?
M40 & Macroom BP together as well?

marno21

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Canty needs to pick up the phone to Coveney then if he’s backing Gould’s motion. In what order should these roads be built if it were an ideal world?

M20/NRR together?
Dunkettle followed by M28?
M40 & Macroom BP together as well?

In an ideal world, I suppose Dunkettle/M28, M20/CNRR East, Macroom-Ovens/NRR West. Macroom BP will be done well in advance of any of these.

In reality, Dunkettle and Macroom actually have planning permission. M20 is only in early planning, NRR East we were told is being planned in conjunction with the M20 but this doesn't seem to have any basis in reality to date. NRR West is a local ambition unmatched in Government. The other upgrades (M22/M25/M71) are just concepts.

Galway is getting a €600m NRR, Limerick is advancing planning on a €140m NRR and Waterford just needs a bridge to have a full ring despite being Ireland's 5th city. The 2nd city meanwhile has crap approach roads and roughly half a ring with 5 roundabouts on it.

marno21

Crash in the tunnel. N40 currently backed up from Dunkettle to the Bandon Road Roundabout. Queue from the Kinsale Road Roundabout into town with people avoiding it. All the local road around Togher clogged. Long queue down Carr’s Hill and from the Skehard Road down to Mahon junction

This needs to be built for redundancy if not for all the other reasons

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

Crash in the tunnel. N40 currently backed up from Dunkettle to the Bandon Road Roundabout. Queue from the Kinsale Road Roundabout into town with people avoiding it. All the local road around Togher clogged. Long queue down Carr’s Hill and from the Skehard Road down to Mahon junction

This needs to be built for redundancy if not for all the other reasons

Don't worry, it's in CMATS. Page 87 and page 88.
On the shelf, gathering dust. There is virtually no political will to invest in Cork transport infrastructure right now.

User142

Only way we are getting the NRR is if FF/FG lose ground to other parties. Neither think the investment is worth any new seats and they don't see it as needed to maintain what they have.

Cork Trucker

User142 wrote: »

Only way we are getting the NRR is if FF/FG lose ground to other parties. Neither think the investment is worth any new seats and they don't see it as needed to maintain what they have.

FG will never deliver the M20/NRR, i'm even pessimistic about FF

Chris_5339762

marno21 wrote: »

Crash in the tunnel. N40 currently backed up from Dunkettle to the Bandon Road Roundabout. Queue from the Kinsale Road Roundabout into town with people avoiding it. All the local road around Togher clogged. Long queue down Carr’s Hill and from the Skehard Road down to Mahon junction

This needs to be built for redundancy if not for all the other reasons

Dunkettle backed all the way back to the Bandon Road. Thats a record.


I ended up taking the backroads from Wilton up to Blackpool and onwards east via Glanmire. Took just over an hour to get home, 45 minutes is the standard in the evening so not too bad. But that was just dreadful tonight. What happened and how do people manage to crash in a tunnel with an 80kmh limit and no lane changes?

blindsider

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

........with an 80kmh limit and no lane changes?

Really? Ah shur, it'll be grand!

(Note the Limerick tunnel allows for lane changes, and someone here made the point that it's (JLT) just a road with a roof........

Donegal Storm

I used to have a lovely commute for a few years across the whole length of the North Circular in London, the Fore Street Tunnel was by far the most likely crash location despite low speed limits and no lane changes, whatever it is about tunnels it seems to attract people to make stupid mistakes

Aontachtoir

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

There is virtually no political will to invest in Cork transport infrastructure right now.

Sometimes I do wonder if Cork would be better served by everyone electing TDs from a single Cork-based party that can sell its support for investment in Cork, like the DUP did in Westminster.

The M20 gets 2 years' support, the M20 and the NRR (north and west sections) gets 3 years' support, add in the M22 to Macroom for another year. Or 1 km of motorway = 2 weeks of support...etc.

(Let me dream of an independent Cork. )

AugustusMinimus

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Dunkettle backed all the way back to the Bandon Road. Thats a record.


I ended up taking the backroads from Wilton up to Blackpool and onwards east via Glanmire. Took just over an hour to get home, 45 minutes is the standard in the evening so not too bad. But that was just dreadful tonight. What happened and how do people manage to crash in a tunnel with an 80kmh limit and no lane changes?

Not a record. It was backed up to there about 4 years ago when the tunnel got flooded. It was way worse back then in fact with the traffic still backed up to the Kinsale Roundabout at 8 in the evening.

Markcheese

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Sometimes I do wonder if Cork would be better served by everyone electing TDs from a single Cork-based party that can sell its support for investment in Cork, like the DUP did in Westminster.

The M20 gets 2 years' support, the M20 and the NRR (north and west sections) gets 3 years' support, add in the M22 to Macroom for another year. Or 1 km of motorway = 2 weeks of support...etc.

(Let me dream of an independent Cork. )

That'll be bankrupt before it even begins ... I'm not seeing much public transport on your list so you'd better throw an outer N40 onto your list, cos it's over capacity and only getting busier...

hans aus dtschl

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Dunkettle backed all the way back to the Bandon Road. Thats a record.


I ended up taking the backroads from Wilton up to Blackpool and onwards east via Glanmire. Took just over an hour to get home, 45 minutes is the standard in the evening so not too bad. But that was just dreadful tonight. What happened and how do people manage to crash in a tunnel with an 80kmh limit and no lane changes?

Two words for you: "zero enforcement".
Speeding, phone use, dangerous driving, etc. People know that there's no chance of getting caught.

Being more fair about it, the road is way over capacity too.

neddynasty

blindsider wrote: »

Really? Ah shur, it'll be grand!

(Note the Limerick tunnel allows for lane changes, and someone here made the point that it's (JLT) just a road with a roof........

The Limerick tunnel doesn't have a great big roundabout at one of it's exits forcing traffic to come to a complete stop on the dual carriageway.

AugustusMinimus

neddynasty wrote: »

The Limerick tunnel doesn't have a great big roundabout at one of it's exits forcing traffic to come to a complete stop on the dual carriageway.

So why can’t we change lanes in the southbound tunnel?

In fact, given there’s a roundabout after the tunnel northbound, you should be able to change lanes to facilitate drivers being in the correct lane for the roundabout.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

So why can’t we change lanes in the southbound tunnel?

In fact, given there’s a roundabout after the tunnel northbound, you should be able to change lanes to facilitate drivers being in the correct lane for the roundabout.

The main difference I see between the Limerick Tunnel and the JLT is the curvature. The Limerick tunnel is straight but the JLT is quite curved. Probably not a factor but the Limerick tunnel is also much much quieter.

Your 2nd point is on the ball - especially after Dunkettle is done there won’t be much time for drivers to change lane. Presumably the 2 lanes and their destinations will be signposted frequently from after the Mahon on ramp merge.

hans aus dtschl

Remember too that the JLT is the tunnel that nearly never was. What I mean is that the state was really doing something new with it so there have been some weird and wonderful little nuances. They did almost everything they could think of to reduce the chances of a crash in there.

My favourite nuance of the JLT is the little road to nowhere over the northern entrance of the tunnel is lined and had street lamps still!

kub

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

So why can’t we change lanes in the southbound tunnel?

In fact, given there’s a roundabout after the tunnel northbound, you should be able to change lanes to facilitate drivers being in the correct lane for the roundabout.

I would imagine with reference to your second query is that some people forget they have a blind spot in their mirror vision when driving.
So as there is confined space in the tunnel, perhaps the changing lane rule is the best logic to prevent the idiots from crashing into one another.

AugustusMinimus

kub wrote: »

I would imagine with reference to your second query is that some people forget they have a blind spot in their mirror vision when driving.
So as there is confined space in the tunnel, perhaps the changing lane rule is the best logic to prevent the idiots from crashing into one another.

I suspect the real reason is because it was lined that way in 1999 and no one has given it a second thought since. No real considerations at all.