Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Can you force someone to be a dad?
Options
Comments
-
-
How do you know what the motivation for a mother putting a child up for adoption or not is? Why are you assuming that they are not doing so for selfish reasons (in the absence of abortion)?hallelujajordan wrote: »I think what your doing is unfair. Equating this fathers choice to go on ignoring his 10 year old daughter (who he knows is longing for his love and attention) to the choice of parent(s) to have either an abortion or adoption is just not valid . . . Whatever your view on abortion is, putting a child up for adoption may absolutely be a correct decision, in the best interests of the childs welfare and you can understand why someone may be motivated to do this. . The only motivation for what he is doing is selfishness. .
Why are you basing your opinion of fathers in similar situations, without recourse to any other options, as automatically selfish by comparisons?
It appears that gender stereotypes are alive and well here.0 -
How do you know what the motivation for a mother putting a child up for adoption or not is? Why are you assuming that they are not doing so for selfish reasons (in the absence of abortion)?
Why are you basing your opinion of fathers in similar situations, without recourse to any other options, as automatically selfish by comparisons?
It appears that gender stereotypes are alive and well here.
Gimme a break, lets not turn this into a gender issue . . I am not into gender stereotypes . . I am a man and a father and can sympathise with both sides of the argument. .
What I am saying is that I can understand how there may well be a non-selfish motive to put your child up for adoption and it may well be in the childs best interests. (of course they may also do this for entirely selfish reasons)
I can not see any non-selfish reason for a grown man to refuse to acknowledge his 10 year old daughter and I can not see how this can be anything other than seriously damaging to the child (signs of which the OP has already identified) . .0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I can not see any non-selfish reason for a grown man to refuse to acknowledge his 10 year old daughter and I can not see how this can be anything other than seriously damaging to the child (signs of which the OP has already identified) . .
Actually with some men (and women) they'll do less damage by walking away from the child than by remaining in their lives. Unfortunately.0 -
This is very easy to say given that abortion continently eliminates the problem the vast majority of the time. Look back fifty or a hundred years to when abortion was simply not an option (barring backstreet ones). Adoptions levels were significantly higher - were all those non-selfish?hallelujajordan wrote: »What I am saying is that I can understand how there may well be a non-selfish motive to put your child up for adoption and it may well be in the childs best interests. (of course they may also do this for entirely selfish reasons)
And then you judge men who don't even have that option. In essence, they can be "grown men" or, well, that's it really. Meanwhile women can be as sexually irresponsible as they like as they have 'options' should they choose not to become mothers.
Even if they choose to have and keep a child, knowing that the father may have from day one said he did not want to to be one, seemingly he's the one who who's at fault and the mother is not in any way held accountable for the situation she has placed the child in.
This is why it really is a gender issue - there is a complete lack of balance in accountability where it comes to reproductive rights. A mother may have the burden of custody - but only if she chooses so. A father is completely at the mercy of the mother, both before and after birth.
All before we even touch of the situation of where a father may want to be a "grown man". Absolutely no rights, and the few he can legally attain are pretty much unenforceable in law. Meanwhile he might be lucky and his child's mother could be reasonable, but if not he can look forward to a lifetime of extortion, courts and emotional blackmail.
In that situation he's screwed either way.
Frankly this is something that she should have thought about at the start. By her own account the man was clear from the onset, and she still made her choice. To suggest that she can make such a choice in full knowledge of the likely outcome and then abdicate any responsibility is bizarre.I can not see any non-selfish reason for a grown man to refuse to acknowledge his 10 year old daughter and I can not see how this can be anything other than seriously damaging to the child (signs of which the OP has already identified) . .0 -
Advertisement
-
It is not just mothers who give their kids up for adoption,parents do,which is inclusive of fathers. Yes indeed gender bias is alive and well.
Whatever the arguments comparing the ins and outs of adoption/abortion with paternal rejection,and however fascinating that may be or ineed quelling to the choiceless male,it does not do much to satisfy the querying child.0 -
You are trying to polarise my argument to prove a point .. I have already made it clear that I understand that of course some adoption choices may be for selfish reasons ? ?The Corinthian wrote: »This is very easy to say given that abortion continently eliminates the problem the vast majority of the time. Look back fifty or a hundred years to when abortion was simply not an option (barring backstreet ones). Adoptions levels were significantly higher - were all those non-selfish?And then you judge men who don't even have that option. In essence, they can be "grown men" or, well, that's it really. Meanwhile women can be as sexually irresponsible as they like as they have 'options' should they choose not to become mothers.
The only man I will chose to judge is the one who knows that he has a 10 year old daughter around the corner, longing for his love and attention and refuses to give it. . I think this is selfish and wrong and I think it is not the same as an individual or a couple making a decision to put their child up for adoption.This is why it really is a gender issue - there is a complete lack of balance in accountability where it comes to reproductive rights. A mother may have the burden of custody - but only if she chooses so. A father is completely at the mercy of the mother, both before and after birth.
Yes, this is biology and much as we can argue about the fairness of it, the ultimate decision rests with the mother for obvious biological reasons and us men have to live with the consequences . .
Alternatively he could step up to the mark and chose to provide for his child both financially and emotionallybut if not he can look forward to a lifetime of extortion, courts and emotional blackmail.
But you can equally argue that he could have thought about this before he made his 'donation' . . . Its just not OK to say "I'm sorry I got you pregnant but I have been clear all along that I do not want kids so hey, your on your own !"Frankly this is something that she should have thought about at the start. By her own account the man was clear from the onset, and she still made her choice. To suggest that she can make such a choice in full knowledge of the likely outcome and then abdicate any responsibility is bizarre.
Got to get back to the child here . . the most significant difference in your comparison between abortion / adoption / rejection is that there is a 10 year old girl who is reaching out for her father . . . .0 -
I think it's clear what The Corinthian is trying to say.
The man doesn't want to be a father, end of. It sucks but that's life.
/thread.0 -
Yet you have no problems with women making such selfish choices, but you do with men.hallelujajordan wrote: »You are trying to polarise my argument to prove a point .. I have already made it clear that I understand that of course some adoption choices may be for selfish reasons ? ?
And it is not selfish to keep a child when you know the other party wants no part of it? Is it not selfish to keep a child and demand that someone else pays for your unilateral choice? Is it not selfish to keep a child when adoption would be in that child's best interests?The only man I will chose to judge is the one who knows that he has a 10 year old daughter around the corner, longing for his love and attention and refuses to give it. . I think this is selfish and wrong and I think it is not the same as an individual or a couple making a decision to put their child up for adoption.
It is this insane lack of accountability with one gender, while the other must be "grown up" that perpetuates this screwed up system, because even if a man wants to be a father, he remains at the mercy of someone who society appears to believe cannot err.
Which is of course complete bullshít, because those biological reasons last for nine months, there is no biological reason thereafter. A child is not for nine months and it is insane that we allow those nine months to unilaterally determine the rest of its life.Yes, this is biology and much as we can argue about the fairness of it, the ultimate decision rests with the mother for obvious biological reasons and us men have to live with the consequences . .
How is that alternatively? I have said that even if he attempts to "step up to the mark" he he can look forward to a lifetime of extortion, courts and emotional blackmail. Your response makes no sense.Alternatively he could step up to the mark and chose to provide for his child both financially and emotionally
But is is not the pregnancy that is the issue. It is what is decided after that matters, just because a woman becomes pregnant does not mean there will be a child to raise - this is only decided after the woman is pregnant and only by the woman. To think that it is all decided when the egg splits abdicates all responsibility on the part of the mother. Essentially you are suggesting that once pregnant it's a done deal, they're going to be parents. She has no choice in the matter. And this is simply not true.But you can equally argue that he could have thought about this before he made his 'donation' . . . Its just not OK to say "I'm sorry I got you pregnant but I have been clear all along that I do not want kids so hey, your on your own !"
No, because "won't someone think of the child" is all too often used as a smokescreen, a justification, that perpetuates this insane situation. Neither can one use a child to justify anything you may do to another person.Got to get back to the child here . . the most significant difference in your comparison between abortion / adoption / rejection is that there is a 10 year old girl who is reaching out for her father . . . .
Men need to step up to the mark (when women decide to for them), but women don't is your ultimate response. And this is simply wrong.0 -
Well, yes, but the discussion has kind of become a little more philosophical and abstract too at this stage. I'm just waiting for the usual shrill flames to start - you know the ones that can't argue so they devolve to abusive clichés like "men should get the snip if they don't want to be fathers".MagicMarker wrote: »The man doesn't want to be a father, end of. It sucks but that's life.0 -
Advertisement
-
The Corinthian wrote: »But is is not the pregnancy that is the issue. It is what is decided after that matters, just because a woman becomes pregnant does not mean there will be a child to raise - this is only decided after the woman is pregnant and only by the woman. To think that it is all decided when the egg splits abdicates all responsibility on the part of the mother. Essentially you are suggesting that once pregnant it's a done deal, they're going to be parents. She has no choice in the matter. And this is simply not true.
Based on the biological realities and the rules of the society in which we live, the only point at which a man has the right to choose is before conception. We can argue the fairness of this all day . . you think it is unfair, I disagree but that is the reality.
Even post conception the only point at which a woman has the sole choice of whether or not to have the child is up until the point where it is legal to have an abortion. After that, the responsibility rests with both parents to put the child up for adoption or to raise the child but I do not think it is right that either parent should have the opportunity to walk away . . .
Men need to step up to the mark (when women decide to for them), but women don't is your ultimate response. And this is simply wrong.
No, its not . . . other than that 24 week period where biology is in control and the woman can choose to have an abortion both parents need to step up to the mark . .0 -
Halleluja-
The man doesnt give a **** about the child. He has performed the closest thing he can to an abortion or an adoption.
The real question is how you explain this to the child. I thnk guan yin advice was good. The rest of this thread seems to be about justifying the rejecting father. Not the point of the thread.0 -
I've rebutted your biological argument and suggesting that something should be accepted simply because it is law is a poor defence - women's rights, ironically, would not have gone far if we had simply accepted the "that's just how things are" argument.hallelujajordan wrote: »Based on the biological realities and the rules of the society in which we live, the only point at which a man has the right to choose is before conception. We can argue the fairness of this all day . . you think it is unfair, I disagree but that is the reality.
There's a difference between having and keeping a child. The former is the choice to go through with pregnancy, the latter is for life. The biology argument can be used for the former, but there is absolutely no logical reason that it can be used to defend the latter.Even post conception the only point at which a woman has the sole choice of whether or not to have the child is up until the point where it is legal to have an abortion. After that, the responsibility rests with both parents to put the child up for adoption or to raise the child but I do not think it is right that either parent should have the opportunity to walk away . . .
No more than there is any logical reason that a mother automatically gets sole custody. Or sole and irreversible guardianship (men can have this revoked, women cannot unless the child is adopted).
Other than the fact that this is precisely where many of these 'problem pregnancies' get dealt with nowadays, it is also not how it works. Even after birth an unmarried mother has every right to put her child up for adoption without the consent of the father. Her only requirement is the, never enforced, need to make "a reasonable attempt to consult (inform) the father".No, its not . . . other than that 24 week period where biology is in control and the woman can choose to have an abortion both parents need to step up to the mark . .
I note you have made no attempt whatsoever to address the question of accountability.0 -
I think its worth a try. Ask again. Directly if possible.0
-
metrovelvet wrote: »Halleluja-
The man doesnt give a **** about the child. He has performed the closest thing he can to an abortion or an adoption.
The real question is how you explain this to the child. I thnk guan yin advice was good. The rest of this thread seems to be about justifying the rejecting father. Not the point of the thread.
Fair point, but The Corinthian has quite rightly questioned what rights the father should have which raises a very interesting philosophical debate. . .
One for which I am running out of energy. . . I see your point Corinthian and I think to a certain extent you are right . . The right to choose about having and keeping a child is certainly skewed towards the mother and perhaps this can create unfair situations. . I can see that stronger laws may help to protect the fathers rights and give him a stronger role in making choices that will ultimately affect him for the rest of his life. . .
However, I still think it is morally objectionable for a man to refuse to acknowledge his 10 year old daughter . . .0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »However, I still think it is morally objectionable for a man to refuse to acknowledge his 10 year old daughter . . .
I'd feel the same way but you need to temper that with the reality that not everyone makes a good parent and not everyone has the same moral compass as you do. The law's position is that material support must be given but there is nothing to force someone to be an active parent. This is a reasonable compromise in my view, a father cannot walk away and leave their child and ex-partner destitute but equally no one but the father should choose whether he takes an active role as a parent or not.0 -
I think maybe it's best to keep the child away from the father. I've had a breezy dad for the last 6 years and it's taken it's tole on my younger sister especially. It's terrible that he can't stand up and be a man about it but it would be better for her own sake that she not experience acceptance and rejection in a cycle (as that is the most likely outcome).
I'm sure your a great mother, and well done for so many years hard work. You should try and talk to her about it. Ask her why she feels like she wants to see him and how she feels about him?0 -
Some fathers either want full involvement or no inolvement in their childs life. That could be the issue.0
-
Hi, it's the OP here.
I have to STRONGLY object to the way people bring up the issue of abortion or adoption, particularly in relation to my own situation. I have had discussions about my situation with others in the past, and inevitably someone mentions the fact that the father had no rights in my choice to have the child and it being down to the mothers choice, and it's a choice I made and so will have to deal with the consequences (of the absent father).
The reason I object to this is because my 'choice' is now a ten year old human being who is entitled to know her father. She has been a part of this world for ten years. To bring it back to the 'choice' I made ten years and nine months ago is shameful.
She is a human being with the same emotions and feelings as all of us. She is entitled to know her father, regardless of my choice.
End of.
Having said all of the above, I will reiterate that I do not want him to be part of her life because of course no mother would want a man involved who doesn't want to be.
Her questions have stopped lately but no doubt, will come up again in the future.0 -
With all due respect, your choice ten years ago had far reaching consequences. To choose to raise a child is not a choice that limits the consequences to the nine months of pregnancy, or even a year or two thereafter. The consequences will be felt decades after that choice was made, and (if he indeed was clear about his position as you say) you were in full possession of the facts that would result in these consequences now and even in the future.The reason I object to this is because my 'choice' is now a ten year old human being who is entitled to know her father. She has been a part of this world for ten years. To bring it back to the 'choice' I made ten years and nine months ago is shameful.
Regardless of the debate on men's rights with regard to this issue, you have to accept that if you have a choice in something and are informed on what is likely to happen as a result, you can't abdicate all responsibility when it does. I'm not suggesting that you are the one at fault, but it's pretty shameful to turn around and suggest that you played no part in it either.0 -
Advertisement
-
I feel I need to make the following points in relation to your post corinthian.
1. I was not in full possession of the facts. WE got pregnant. HE changed his mind about being a father when his daughter was 6 months old.
2. Nowhere have I said I am abdicating responsibility for OUR choice to have a child. IN fact, I have taken FULL responsibility for my choice. He changed his mind.
3. We BOTH played a part in creating the child. When it came to raising the child, He changed his mind.
4. He changed his mind.0 -
Well, this certainly does change matters, however it is also in complete contradiction to what you told us earlier in this thread:1. I was not in full possession of the facts. WE got pregnant. HE changed his mind about being a father when his daughter was 6 months old.
So either he never wanted to be a father or he did and he changed his mind. Which one is it?It IS cut and dry. WE got pregnant. He didn't want a child. He broke it off. End of.
If it is the latter then you can throw out much of the advice given here because it was based upon false information.0 -
We wanted a child.
We got pregnant.
Late in the pregnancy, he decided it might not have been what he wanted after all.
When his child was 6 months, he walked.
Does that explain it?0 -
I dont think were getting the full picture here,
if he has so much hatred towards you and cant put that aside something must of caused that,
Single mothers have a unfair total control over the children and can inflict alot of emotional pain by using their kids against a father.
I know there is nothing worse than being in a realionship when you know it can all be taken away, even your child at any moment that she takes a mood swing! Its makes you feel worthless.
There is two sides to every story and i only think were getting one side here.
BTW im not saying for one second the father is right in what he is doing.0 -
Tbh I don't care what goes on between two people who are parents but I really have very little time for any parent who does not take the time to develope when it is possible an
independant relationship with thier child.
When a crises pregnancy hits and when a family breaks down it's shítty, I know I've been
there in both cases, but maybe I expect too much of people to be adults and try and foster good constructive, supportive relationships with thier children and to not impede
the other parent from doing the same no matter what the situation of the break up was.
I know that sounds over simplistic and people have all sorts of complications in thier lives
but unless there are really good reason's I tend to see that as people failing as parents.
Plenty of people have grown up with with only one parent in thier life, or one parent active in their life and turned out as well rounded people who give good lives so not having contact won't ruin their lives but it is a tricky situation to be in when you are the parent and your child is asking questions.
goodmum have you considered getting in touch with gingerbread?
http://www.gingerbread.ie/
Gingerbread Ireland
Carmichael House
North Brunswick St.
Dublin 7.
Phone: 01 814 6618
Fax: 01 814 6619
E-Mail: Info@gingerbread.ie
They have support meetings for single and separated parents all over the country
and you may get tips help and support for yourself and your daughter.
My own cousin, her father never acknowledged her despite both grandmothers living literally a few door down the road from each other and her parents having grown up
together as kids. It was rough on my aunt esp considering that was 26 years ago but
my cousin went on to get her degree, masters, has her own house, is engaged and happy in her life. She did go through the questioning stage and meeting other kids
going through similar things at gingerbread family days out was helpful.0 -
Look, this debate could go on and on and on and you are obviously only going to hear my side of the story, because I'm the one who posted it.
So we can go on and on talking about my choice and his hatred towards me and his right to choose not to be a father in the same way that a woman can choose not to be a mother.
But the FACTS of THIS story are that there is a ten year old girl who would like to know here father. And because he has made his choice, she will (probably) never get to know him.
This should not, after ten years, be about me and him and our relationship.
It should be about him and his daughter.
I can leave my emotions towards him (of which there are few at this stage) outisde this issue because it is not about me. It's about him and our daughter.
Perhaps she will one day post on boards.ie and start her sentence like 'I never knew my dad growing up' and ask for advice on an issue around the rejection she felt as a young girl.
And I personally believe that no human being has the right to affect another human beings life, WHO THEY CREATED, in that capacity. Nobody has the right to ensure that their OWN child experiences rejection on a daily basis, just because they changed their mind and decided they didn't want to be a father after all. And please don't say that this is similar to adoption or abortion because it's not. He wanted her, we made her, and then he thought 'Eh, not for me'. And he has continued to feel that way.0 -
Thank you thaed, I will contact them.
I think the fact that she knows no-one else in her situation is another contributing factor.
Yes, she knows plenty of kids who's dad doesn't live with them but they know them and see them (some regularly, some not so regularly!).
But she knows no one (nor do I) personnally, who's dad lives a few miles away but just doesn't want to know them.
So I'll contact Gingerbread. And thanks again.0 -
This we can safely assume is a fact.But the FACTS of THIS story are that there is a ten year old girl who would like to know here father.
This we cannot assume is a fact because it is based upon your interpretation, one which you have already changed once in this thread.And because he has made his choice, she will (probably) never get to know him.
I'd agree though that you're unlikely to get meaningful advice here though. There's two sides to this whole mess (three when you include your daughter) and it really is impossible to figure out what is fact from what is not.
If the issue is your relationship with him, then realistically though you might be able to get his involvement on the basis that he never even has to speak with you - i.e. appoint a proxy. Just an idea.0 -
Contact him, and tell him you want to meet him for a cup of coffee with your daughter. Easiest way to sort these things out. Tell him she really wants him involved in her life, and consequently you do. Take it from there. Speak openly in front of the child, at least she'll know you tried. And he might get over his hang-ups if he sees both you and your daughter are at one on this. Did you tell him to f%ck off years ago or something? This sometimes happens and when the father decides to actually do that, then there can be huge regretsI coudln't possibly tell him it was breaking MY heart - he'd be delighted!0 -
Advertisement
-
'This we cannot assume is a fact because it is based upon your interpretation, one which you have already changed once in this thread.'
Could you just remind me where I have changed my interpration please?
'I'd agree though that you're unlikely to get meaningful advice here though'
I have gotten very meaningful advice here so I'm not sure who your are agreeing with?
'There's two sides to this whole mess (three when you include your daughter) and it really is impossible to figure out what is fact from what is not'
It's not impossible at all. In fact, it's very clear. He has a ten year old daughter who he does not want to see.
'If the issue is your relationship with him'
It is probably HIS issue with me. Our relationship ended 9 and a half years ago though. I'm well over it and have moved on with my life. Unfortunately, his daugher is going through a difficult time at the moment.
'Appoint a proxy'
I have suggested (to his mother) that he meets his daughter at her house. He's not interested.
And no, I didn't tell him to f&ck off years ago. Far from it in fact. We had been arguing yes, but in hindsight, we had a newborn and I suppse that was quite normal. And after one of the arguments, he just decided he actually didn't want to be a dad or a boyfriend/partner anymore.0
Advertisement