Rules and society.

jackiebrown

Can anyone name the society we live in and the rules that govern it?. Before you say statutes etc please understand that it is corporate law. Rules, pah. Only one rule applies to me, not to cause anyone harm or loss. Tis all I need. I let you folks in on a little secret too. Those at the top and bottom dont follow the rules, only the sheeple in the middle.

Riamfada

jackiebrown wrote: »

Can anyone name the society we live in and the rules that govern it?. Before you say statutes etc please understand that it is corporate law. Rules, pah. Only one rule applies to me, not to cause anyone harm or loss. Tis all I need. I let you folks in on a little secret too. Those at the top and bottom dont follow the rules, only the sheeple in the middle.

Well generally all cultures are based around natural law. The pan-human code of ethics by which common law or "statutes" are based . Usually when people break it they end up in court. I guess that accounts for large numbers of top and bottom folks clogging up the courts.

meglome

jackiebrown wrote: »

Can anyone name the society we live in and the rules that govern it?. Before you say statutes etc please understand that it is corporate law. Rules, pah. Only one rule applies to me, not to cause anyone harm or loss. Tis all I need. I let you folks in on a little secret too. Those at the top and bottom dont follow the rules, only the sheeple in the middle.

Lot's of people break the rules, top, bottom and middle. The rules are there for the protection of society i.e. everyone not any one individual. What specific rule do you not like or do you think is harmful?

Penn

The rules are there for everyone. Not just the "sheeple". Anyone can choose to abide by the rules or not, but the rules still apply.

I'm not too sure what you're asking. I mean, there's the law, and then there is personal and religious belief. I'm not a religious person, but I still believe in many of the messages it gives on how you should live your life. In the end, its all relative I suppose.

bonkey

This sounds like a question for humanities, or maybe philosophy or politics.

Is there a reason its relevant to this forum?

humanji

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

The rules are there for everyone. Not just the "sheeple". Anyone can choose to abide by the rules or not, but the rules still apply.

I'm not too sure what you're asking. I mean, there's the law, and then there is personal and religious belief. I'm not a religious person, but I still believe in many of the messages it gives on how you should live your life. In the end, its all relative I suppose.

There's many rules you follow without knowing and many reasons why you'd break that one rule you have.

jackiebrown

bonkey wrote: »

This sounds like a question for humanities, or maybe philosophy or politics.

Is there a reason its relevant to this forum?

Nah, move it if you wish.

jackiebrown

Not if I'm aware of how my actions effect other people. Your society sticks children in white rooms from the ages of 6-12 telling them not to move, to be silent and to do as they're told. Personally I wasted countless hours memorising dates in history ffs and for what. I coulda been outside playing. I wasn't educated I was dumbed down.

Your society encourages greed and unhealthy competition.
Your society leaves people dying on hospital trolleys.
Your society has corruption in our police force (I'm from Donegal, where they're worse than most.
Your societies leaders work about half the year and get paid obscence amounts.
Your society allowed US war planes to land in Shannon.
Your society covers up child abuse.
and on and on.

You and your society can kiss my ass.

jackiebrown

jackiebrown wrote: »

Not if I'm aware of how my actions effect other people. Your society sticks children in white rooms from the ages of 6-12 telling them not to move, to be silent and to do as they're told. Personally I wasted countless hours memorising dates in history ffs and for what. I coulda been outside playing. I wasn't educated I was dumbed down.

Your society encourages greed and unhealthy competition.
Your society leaves people dying on hospital trolleys.
Your society has corruption in our police force (I'm from Donegal, where they're worse than most.
Your societies leaders work about half the year and get paid obscence amounts.
Your society allowed US war planes to land in Shannon.
Your society covers up child abuse.
and on and on.

You and your society can kiss my ass.

Its your society too whether you like it or not, and you live in it and you partake in it. You are here on the boards partaking in society.

humanji

jackiebrown wrote: »

Not if I'm aware of how my actions effect other people. Your society sticks children in white rooms from the ages of 6-12 telling them not to move, to be silent and to do as they're told. Personally I wasted countless hours memorising dates in history ffs and for what. I coulda been outside playing. I wasn't educated I was dumbed down.

Your society encourages greed and unhealthy competition.
Your society leaves people dying on hospital trolleys.
Your society has corruption in our police force (I'm from Donegal, where they're worse than most.
Your societies leaders work about half the year and get paid obscence amounts.
Your society allowed US war planes to land in Shannon.
Your society covers up child abuse.
and on and on.

You and your society can kiss my ass.

Would you kill one person to save a thousand? Or would you let the thousand die, just to preserve your sense of well-being?

Diogenes

jackiebrown wrote: »

Not if I'm aware of how my actions effect other people. Your society sticks children in white rooms from the ages of 6-12 telling them not to move, to be silent and to do as they're told. Personally I wasted countless hours memorising dates in history ffs and for what. I coulda been outside playing. I wasn't educated I was dumbed down.

Your society encourages greed and unhealthy competition.
Your society leaves people dying on hospital trolleys.
Your society has corruption in our police force (I'm from Donegal, where they're worse than most.
Your societies leaders work about half the year and get paid obscence amounts.
Your society allowed US war planes to land in Shannon.
Your society covers up child abuse.
and on and on.

You and your society can kiss my ass.

Et in Arcadia Ego.

Care to tell us what idyllic Utopian society existed where injustice war and poverty wasn't part of it's make up.

Penn

jackiebrown wrote: »

Not if I'm aware of how my actions effect other people. Your society sticks children in white rooms from the ages of 6-12 telling them not to move, to be silent and to do as they're told. Personally I wasted countless hours memorising dates in history ffs and for what. I coulda been outside playing. I wasn't educated I was dumbed down.

But where would you be without that education? If you had been allowed to just stay outside and play, you would be one of the people at the bottom of society you mentioned before. We all spent time learning those dates, and even though at the time I hated it because its not what I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing (eg. I don't want to be a geologist so why am I doing geography?), I now realise that other people in my class perhaps did want to. The education system can't be changed to suit each individual student. You weren't dumbed down. If you were, surely you wouldn't realise it.

Your society encourages greed and unhealthy competition.
Your society leaves people dying on hospital trolleys.
Your society has corruption in our police force (I'm from Donegal, where they're worse than most.
Your societies leaders work about half the year and get paid obscence amounts.
Your society allowed US war planes to land in Shannon.
Your society covers up child abuse.
and on and on.

You and your society can kiss my ass.

Now you are confusing society with Government. Of course there are flaws in the government. Of course they lie, cheat and steal. Of course they will never please all of the people all of the time. But like it or not they are the government which we, as a society, chose and as part of this society we must abide by their rules.

marco_polo

Well society is pretty much something humanity invented so that two strangers would not try kill each other whenever they crossed paths. So from that point of view it has been a great success. :pac:

jackiebrown

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

Now you are confusing society with Government. Of course there are flaws in the government. Of course they lie, cheat and steal. Of course they will never please all of the people all of the time. But like it or not they are the government which we, as a society, chose and as part of this society we must abide by their rules.

Oh, alright. Cant be changed so.

Well society is pretty much something humanity invented so that two strangers would not try kill each other whenever they crossed paths. So from that point of view it has been a great success

What?. I suppose if there wasn't a society I'd be out murdering and running amok. Funny though I dont think I got it in me.

Et in Arcadia Ego.

Care to tell us what idyllic Utopian society existed where injustice war and poverty wasn't part of it's make up.

Its all in my head. I only come out when I'm working.

bonkey

Moved to Political Theory, which seems to be the best place for it.

jackiebrown

humanji wrote: »

Would you kill one person to save a thousand? Or would you let the thousand die, just to preserve your sense of well-being?

I dont understand. I wouldn't do either.

Permabear

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humanji

jackiebrown wrote: »

I dont understand. I wouldn't do either.

But in that hypothetical situation, you'd have only two choices. And both cause you to break that one rule. It's an extreme example as to why any rule(s) that anyone chooses to live by can be broken under certain situations.

jackiebrown

humanji wrote: »

But in that hypothetical situation, you'd have only two choices. And both cause you to break that one rule. It's an extreme example as to why any rule(s) that anyone chooses to live by can be broken under certain situations.

Being free I'd have a third choice. I wouldn't do either.

Iwasfrozen

Being free I'd have a third choice. I wouldn't do either.

He said hypothetical situation, no third choice.

jackiebrown

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

He said hypothetical situation, no third choice.

No choice. Sounds familiar. I CHOOSE option 3.

jackiebrown

Grimes wrote: »

Well generally all cultures are based around natural law. The pan-human code of ethics by which common law or "statutes" are based . Usually when people break it they end up in court. I guess that accounts for large numbers of top and bottom folks clogging up the courts.

Common law or statutes?. You need wiki mate.

Iwasfrozen

No choice. Sounds familiar. I CHOOSE option 3.

For God sack man, are you trying to be a akward as possible ? We Socialists tend to see the good side of all people but I'm struggling with you.
There is no option 3 only 1 or 2.

Victor

The OP seems to be hinting at "freeman" type politics, popular in some remote parts of the USA. It takes libertarianism to the extreme. Some of those espousing such principals seem to be a little misguided and bandy about legal terms in such ways as to misuse them. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055521538

Now, it is one thing to not be a slave to the / a system, but unilaterally deciding you won't obey the law because it doesn't suit you is rather unacceptable. Some of these people are happy to be prosecuted for offences where direct harm has been caused (e.g. assault causing actual harm), but not where the harm is societal (e.g. verbal assault, speeding, etc.). What they fail to realise is that speeding, etc. put people in fear and that is a real harm (look at the WHO definition of Health: "Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.")

donegalfella wrote: »

In reality, "society" does not exist. Only the concept of society exists, the idea of a system wherein each individual is just a small part of something that is bigger, better, warmer, kindlier, and more important than himself.

There are many forms of society, from governments to social clubs and charitable organisations. I don't think there is a one size fits all description and it may be ephemeral, but societies do exist.

But believing in "society" is tantamount to individual suicide.

I think you'll have to explain that. It’s a rather bold and ambiguous statement.

"Society" is just another abstraction—a bit like "God"—that its proponents use to justify their abuse of coercive authority. "Society" makes power-hungry individuals run around in circles calling for unwarranted controls over what other individuals can believe, what they can say, what they can put in their bodies, and what they can do in their private bedrooms. Its extension, "social justice," leads to evil laws that regulate how much of a person's property he may lawfully call his own and how much he must give to people who have no moral right to claim it.

Appeals to "society" lie behind almost every attack on individual consciousness, personal freedom, and private property. But every argument based on it is utterly groundless.

In other words, certain people don't want to pay their taxes and parking fines. They want to pollute. They want to build chemical factories next to schools. They want to smoke in the pub. They want to drive big, single-occupancy cars through the centre of town and park in bus stops. They want their cake and to eat it at the same time. Child pornography is probably OK with them (did I just Godwinise my post).

I got together recently with some local councillors and gardaí in my area and walked them along the main road, pointing out things that were wrong - street lights not working, derelict buildings (some to the point of being dangerous), litter, dangerous and nuisance parking. While money is tight and they aren't promising anything, its a start. It is the individual standing up and saying "no more". Such an idea would be anathema to freemen and libertarianists, who see the role of the state to be minimalist and should only be there to protect us from violence, that is all the state needs is police force and an army. Of course, this suits better off people who don't want to pay taxes and does nothing for the rest of society. Yes, that dirty S-word.

Part of me wants to scream "F*** off to Antarctica" to these selfish people. Theres another S-word. Selfish. It sums them up.

PS, I am not aiming this at any individuals, including those I quoted.

turgon

It not about being selfish. Its about wanting to live our lives without being forcibly affected by others. Its not that much to ask for.

r14

Victor wrote: »

Part of me wants to scream "F*** off to Antarctica" to these selfish people. Theres another S-word. Selfish. It sums them up.

+ 1. In fact I already did on the Freeman thread

...The rest of us are quite happy to live our conspiracy free lives and accept that the state was set up by us to pool our resources in taxes and provide services for the benefit of all. You don't have to share in those resources if you don't want to but if you live in our country you play by the rules of the majority...

If not I think the Arctic is still free from territorial claims, so feel free (that's you chillin' at the North Pole)

It is extremely selfish to think you can exploit society's benefits while ignoring it's burdens. Libertarianism is fine but if you want no State involvement don't use the roads provided by society, the electricity grid built by society, the police, health or fire services paid by society... the list is endless. The majority in Ireland are quite glad to live in our society and accept that the cost of all the benefits is that we must comply with the rules (which we actually make through our elected representatives).

So if you don't like it you're free to leave but please leave completely. We can't afford to have society wasting scarce resources on people who won't give anything back through taxes etc.

Victor: The only problem is that Antarctica is already subject to territorial claim so if we want them to leave we have to suggest the Arctic

turgon

r14 wrote: »

It is extremely selfish to think you can exploit society's benefits while ignoring it's burdens.

What exactly are "societies" benefits? That I have to subscribe to the moral view of the majority?

r14 wrote: »

Libertarianism is fine but if you want no State involvement don't use the roads provided by society, the electricity grid built by society, the police, health or fire services paid by society... the list is endless.

So you want people to pay tax and then not use services because of their beliefs???

r14 wrote: »

which we actually make through our elected representatives).

Oh yes wonderful democracy. No problem in the world cant be solved by democracy....or maybe not.

Democracy is simply the rule of the majority. It is abused on a regular basis by religious nuts etc to force their world view on everyone else.

r14 wrote: »

We can't afford to have society wasting scarce resources on people who won't give anything back through taxes etc.

What are you on about? Libertarians are often the ones who will be paying tax. Why else would they advocate getting rid of the system?? If they didst pay tax they would be relying on the state.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

r14

Read my entire post in context and not one sentence at a time.

turgon wrote: »

What exactly are "societies" benefits? That I have to subscribe to the moral view of the majority?

No society's benefits are what I specified above namely the electricity grid, police service, health service etc.

turgon wrote: »

So you want people to pay tax and then not use services because of their beliefs???

No I want people to accept the rules of society one of which is that you must pay taxes. If they choose not to accept these rules and they refuse to pay taxes (like Wesley Snipes) then I ask them to leave this country and stop wasting resources that should go to people who do accept the rules and want to partake.

turgon wrote: »

Oh yes wonderful democracy. No problem in the world cant be solved by democracy....or maybe not.

Democracy is simply the rule of the majority. It is abused on a regular basis by religious nuts etc to force their world view on everyone else.

Got a better system? And if the majority want to support religious nuts in a particular country who are we to tell them they are wrong. We can resist them spreading their views into our society if our majority disagree but we can't stop their democratic will.

turgon wrote: »

What are you on about? Libertarians are often the ones who will be paying tax. Why else would they advocate getting rid of the system?? If they didst pay tax they would be relying on the state.

In the context of this discussion we are talking about a particularly extreme form od Libertarianism. These "Freemen" want to live completely divorced from society and all its rules believing that once they cause no harm to another they should not be bound by the rules of society. While I accept you can be a libertarian and still agree to paying taxes (in order to finance an army to protect yourself) these freemen want absolutely no involvement in society at all.

My point is simply that the logical extreme of their idea is that they should exist completely divorced from the state. If they believe the road traffic laws don't apply to them they should also treat the roads as propoerty of society and they should not travel on them. They should not take the benefits without accepting the burdens.

r14

donegalfella wrote: »

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Have you not heard that the invisible hand is broken? Rampant self interest got us into this recession and tighter government regulation will help get us out.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That would be fine except for the fact that the Irish State owns the Aran Islands so what would you give in return for your sovereign territory. Your suggestion requires a lot of generosity - especially given that you're someone who believes that self-interest is king.

At least you're not as bad as some of them in the US and Canada who want to take land by force and have even been involved in murdering tax collectors. Doesn't seem to fit well with the cause no harm to others philosophy.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.