Foreign-sounding names and discrimination MERGED

SWL

wes wrote: »

What about Irish citizens with foreign sound names? Doesn't seem right that they should get screwed.

I have a very foreign name, never stopped me from getting on, there appears to be a ever growing numbers of victims in society just get on with it.

Siga

Dudess

SWL, just because I "thanked" the other person and not you (it wasn't a conscious thing) doesn't mean I disagree with you - I fully agree with your point. But I found it ironic that you were saying "It's just the way it goes - a country will look after its own" while last week or the week before you were a member of the "they're takin' all our jobs" brigade. And going through this thread, you're not the only one by any means.

I mean, which is it? Is the country looking after its own in light of this report, or is it letting all the fardiners take our jobs? (90% was the figure quoted in the thread about the queue for Londis recently).

It doesn't do you any favours either to bring where I'm from into it - how on earth does being born in a random piece of land define my character?

SWL

techdiver wrote: »

Lets get real here..... Do any of you think this is any different in other countries. Of course bias will be shown to natives. That's a fact of life. Natives are less likely to be footloose or just travelling, they are more likely a better fit socially within the office. That's just the way it is.

Lived in Australia, went fro an interview and the guy said if an Australian has what they are looking for, they get the job because they are Australian, I didn't cry racist, I knew exactly where he was coming from and accepted it. So Man the **** up you lot, and stop with the racist crap

RaverRo808

Acacia wrote: »

Not everybody here with a foreign name has only been for a few years. Some may have been born here.

So they can just hop on the boat now that times are tough? Charming.

And by having no room for 'deadwood', I assume you're also taking into account the Irish dole-spongers who never worked a day in their lies even when the going was good?

I wasnt saying that someone with a foreign sounding name should be overlooked for a job,I seriously doubt employers look at someones name and throw the C.V in the bin,obvisiously they have a glance over it in its entirity,but what I meant was,employers especially in a recession are going to give preference to natives,mainly because they want to look after their ow n,its not racist its just human nature,and I agree with you,dole spongers of any race should all be put on the boat out of here,but most people on the dole I know are definatley in need of it,and I find this attitude 'most people on the dole are spongers' is a new form of discrimination

wes

SWL wrote: »

I have a very foreign name, never stopped me from getting on, there appears to be a ever growing numbers of victims in society just get on with it.

Siga

Well I do have a job, but I have every right to be treated the same as everyone else. I also think it pretty stupid to judge people based on there name alone. I am Irish and I damn well have every right to be treated the same as everyone else.

_Nuno_

RaverRo808 wrote: »

Is it just me?,but Im glad employers are more willing to recruit Irish natives over foreign nationals

No, it's not just you. It's you and all the other xenophobes that think that the geographical location where you were born automatically gives you an entitlement to things like jobs, welfare,, and makes you a first class citizen, and all the other ones a second class citizen.

Don't worry, you're not alone. Far from it.

IIMII

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

:rolleyes:
yes we use more homophones
but we are closer to standard english than many in the UK , the main problem with interintelligibilty is that we talk faster than they do.

did the survey contain any England names to see if the bias was due to country or language ?

Still doesn't make us native English speakers

az2wp0sye65487

Dudess wrote: »

I find this a strange one:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0507/1224246058800.html

I'd have thought it was simply because there are likely to be less applicants with "foreign-sounding" names...

Aren't the results based on this:

"Between March and October last year, researchers sent out pairs of matched CVs in response to 240 job adverts in administration, lower-level accountancy or in retail. The two fictitious applicants had equivalent qualifications, skills and expertise – all gained in Ireland – but while one candidate had an Irish name, the other was Asian, African or German.

Both candidates were invited for interview on 23 occasions. In 55 cases, the Irish names were called for interview and the foreign-named applicants were rejected, while in just 15 cases, the minority names were called and the Irish-named were ignored."

From the same article...

upmeath

KTRIC wrote: »

Hitler was Austrian, different country. The name isn't even common, wasn't at the time and definitely isn't now.

Goebbels, then? :cool:

greendom

RaverRo808 wrote: »

Is it just me?,but Im glad employers are more willing to recruit Irish natives over foreign nationals,the huge influx of immigrants,asylum seekers,foreign jobseekers etc was destined to be a diaster for Ireland,because now we are in extremely hard times,our own are the ones on the bread line and are desperate for work,and unfortunately so our the massive amount of foreign nationals who came here to exploit our so called 'Celtic Tiger',of course Irish people are going to want preference over those who have been here 2 or 3 years,for whatever reason,its only natural,wouldnt call it racism,yeah Im sure times are tough for immigrants,asylum seekers and the like,but they have an option,the boat back to their home country,which can in turn look after them,we have no room for deadwood here at the moment

I hope it is just you - sadly though I think not

asdasd

It's you and all the other xenophobes that think that the geographical location where you were born automatically gives you an entitlement to things like jobs, welfare,, and makes you a first class citizen, and all the other ones a second class citizen.

Don't worry, you're not alone. Far from it.

Of course he is far from it. Most countries in the world practice a form of discrimination against foreigners competing for jobs by forcing them to get visa, restricting who they can work for, even denying citizenship to their offspring. Ireland leaves a huge number of people into the country without restrictions relative to the size of it's population.


So the world is full of "xenophobes". Maybe we should keep them apart.

asdasd

I hope it is just you - sadly though I think not

Are you always sad when workers dont' work in the Boss class interests?

Rob_l

Its good to see most here didn't read the article before posting.

Its not about the difference between irish and foreigners its perception of names, the articles used two replica CV's one with an irish surname one with another not irish surname both applicants were still irish.

asdasd

the articles used two replica CV's one with an irish surname one with another not irish surname both applicants were still irish.

Both applicants were made up. So neither was Irish. Since we have had immigration recently it is obvious and normal to assume that a person with a german name is German. I bet they didnt say Nationality:Irish on the CV.

Chocoholic84

Tupins wrote: »

I find this very sad but unfortunately not suprising.

Ireland is a very racist country in my experience.

It's called looking after our own. Why shouldn't we?

If there was a foreigner and Irish person looking for a job, and both were equally qualified, I'd give it to The Irish person.

I don't find that racist.

_Nuno_

Chocoholic84 wrote: »

It's called looking after our own. Why shouldn't we?

If there was a foreigner and Irish person looking for a job, and both were equally qualified, I'd give it to The Irish person.

I don't find that racist.

No, it's not racist, just discriminatory.

greendom

asdasd wrote: »

Are you always sad when workers dont' work in the Boss class interests?

Huh? not sure what you're driving at there. My concern is the attitude that foreign people living in Ireland are considered less deserving than native born people

Boskowski

RaverRo808 wrote: »

we have no room for deadwood here at the moment

How charming. Now we call people who actively seek employment 'deadwood'?

Also, ever heard about a thing called the 'EU'? There is entitlements and responsibilities for EU citizens no matter where they reside within the EU. And I am just as entitled/responsible as you are in Ireland, the same way you are situated in my country.

anonymous_joe

Chocoholic84 wrote: »

It's called looking after our own. Why shouldn't we?

If there was a foreigner and Irish person looking for a job, and both were equally qualified, I'd give it to The Irish person.

I don't find that racist.

Coming over here, contributing to the greatest period of sustained economic growth we'd ever known only for Irish politicians to allow Irish run banks engage in ludicrously dangerous and foolhardy policies causing the global recession to hit us harder.

The bástards.

_Nuno_

asdasd wrote: »

Of course he is far from it. Most countries in the world practice a form of discrimination against foreigners competing for jobs by forcing them to get visa, restricting who they can work for, even denying citizenship to their offspring. Ireland leaves a huge number of people into the country without restrictions relative to the size of it's population.


So the world is full of "xenophobes". Maybe we should keep them apart.

What's your point? All countries have rapists too, do you want to apply that same logic to that as well?

Rob_l

With irelands history its not really safe to assume anything I myself have a non-irish surname and on name alone am always assummed to be johnny(or in may case robbie) foreigner, i definetly am Irish, I dont think I can trace back a non irish ancester until the late 1700's and then I have one the owner of my perfect surname.

But according to this thread I should take the boat back

But the boat back to where?

az2wp0sye65487

_Nuno_ wrote: »

No, it's not just you. It's you and all the other xenophobes that think that the geographical location where you were born automatically gives you an entitlement to things like jobs, welfare,, and makes you a first class citizen, and all the other ones a second class citizen.

Don't worry, you're not alone. Far from it.

greendom wrote: »

I hope it is just you - sadly though I think not

_Nuno_ wrote: »

No, it's not racist, just discriminatory.

There is such a thing as being too P.C. and something else known as Reverse Discrimination which I fear is what a lot of posters on here are doing.

asdasd

Huh? not sure what you're driving at there. My concern is the attitude that foreign people living in Ireland are considered less deserving than native born people

irish people are less deserving in their countries, at least if their countries are non-EU. Thats the way of the world. Obama is trying to get American corporations to create American jobs. Nations actually try and work in the interests of their native born population. This is not all that shocking.

( By the way, in the case of the African, the report didnt say whether the applicatiion clinduded visa information - but is should have).

asdasd

What's your point? All countries have rapists too, do you want to apply that same logic to that as well?

Argument to the extreme. You lose.

wes

Rob_l wrote: »

With irelands history its not really safe to assume anything I myself have a non-irish surname and on name alone am always assummed to be johnny(or in may case robbie) foreigner, i definetly am Irish, I dont think I can trace back a non irish ancester until the late 1700's and then I have one the owner of my perfect surname.

But according to this thread I should take the boat back

But the boat back to where?

Those of us who people think aren't Irish enough, can form our own country, with Hookers and Black jack. You know what forget the country, the Hookers and black jack will do fine!

_Nuno_

asdasd wrote: »

Argument to the extreme. You lose.

No I don't. Your "everyone else does it, so it's ok" argument is fine when you're in primary school, but just doesn't cut it after that.

greendom

Decker Numerous Blackhead wrote: »

There is such a thing as being too P.C. and something else known as Reverse Discrimination which I fear is what a lot of posters on here are doing.

I don't know about the others but I'm just concerned with fairness, that people be judged on merit, not nationality or any other discriminatory grounds.

if that makes me "too pc" then guilty as charged.

fryup

you see the irish expect other countries to provide them with jobs - UK, USA Australia etc, but when ever a handful of foreigners come to our shores we don't like it:cool:

greendom

asdasd wrote: »

irish people are less deserving in their countries, at least if their countries are non-EU. Thats the way of the world. Obama is trying to get American corporations to create American jobs. Nations actually try and work in the interests of their native born population. This is not all that shocking.
.

Well if that's the case it's wrong - wrong to have second class citizens. countries should be working on the behalf of all its' residents. Every one who belongs to the society - place of birth should be immaterial.


And as to Obama - has he announced that only native Americans can apply for these American jobs ? Think not

asdasd

No I don't. Your "everyone else does it, so it's ok" is fine when you're in primary school, but just doesn't cut it after that.

Sorry, mate. If there is a universal belief amongst the entire population of the world, opposed by one lone internet poster who is engaging is self-righteous moral posturing then the world, not the poster is probably correct.

And in fact I dont see any "morality" in the mass movement of worker around the world since it will make the capitalist classes, and the ( upper middle class) people who protect their position richer, and wokers poorer. This is a fake upper middle class morality, a victorian moralizing about the "racist" workers, generally from protected tenured elites.

Case in point - the access to Irish universities in uneven. Free, ( well subsidised) for Irish. Unfree for others. If we were to open it up fully to China and India then the Chises and Indians would get all the places - because of the difference in populations. We would also need an international version of the Leaving Cert.

Are you in favour? Or do you support middle class discrimination, and dislike whatever minor form of discrimination that favouers private sector workers.

asdasd

And as to Obama - has he announced that only native Americans can apply for these American jobs ? Think not

Christ on a stick. Try and get a job in america. You will find it harder than an American, if not impossible.

You need a visa. See, That discriminates against you. An American does not need a visa. Like a H1B. While there, you can only work for that company that hires you, and dont get welfare when you leave, nor any pension even if you contribute. You are deported if you dont leave.

you see the irish expect other countries to provide them with jobs - UK, USA Australia etc, but when ever a handful of foreigners come to our shores we don't like it

we only get to those countries witha visa. All of those countries ban all Irish people from working there without visas.

what are you people talking about. I mean, seriously?

Are you not in the same world?

_Nuno_

asdasd wrote: »

Sorry, mate. If there is a universal belief amongst the entire population of the world, opposed by one lone internet poster who is engaging is self-righteous moral posturing then the world, not the poster is probably correct.

Who the hell gave you the permission to be the voice of the entire population of the world???? I know plenty of people that would give a foreigner the same exact treatment has a national. You are noty the voice of the whole world. Your opinion is not that of the whole population of the world.

Get a grip on yourself.

greendom

asdasd wrote: »

Christ on a stick. Try and get a job in america. You will find it harder than an American, if not impossible.

You need a discrimatory visa.



we only get to those countries witha visa. All of those countries ban all Irish people from working there without visas.

what are you people talking about. I mean, seriously?

Are you not in the same world?

My point was Obama's policy to force US firms to produce more at home and therefore increase employment there is for the benefit of everyone who lives in the US - not just the native born

asdasd

Who the hell gave you the permission to be the voice of the entire population of the world???? I know plenty of people that would give a foreigner the same exact treatment has a national. You are noty the voice of the whole world. Your opinion is not that of the whole population of the world.

Every single nation on Earth control's it borders against others.

I am in favour of controlled immigration. Just not the idea that anybody who opposes it -is a xenophobe.

I know plenty of people that would give a foreigner the same exact treatment has a national.

I wait a reply on why we discriminate in favour of Irish people who want to go to Trinity college, compared to Chinese people.

Answer?

techdiver

If you put racism and discrimination aside, if you give a job to a foreign national and not to an available Irish person, you also may potentially increase the burden on the welfare system in this country and its economic stability.

The foreign worker will be more likely to move to another country where work is available whereas the Irish worker will sit on the welfare system.

In short this practise happens everywhere... like it or not. I am simply crunching numbers here and leaving the discriminatory practise aside.

SWL

_Nuno_ wrote: »

No, it's not just you. It's you and all the other xenophobes that think that the geographical location where you were born automatically gives you an entitlement to things like jobs, welfare,, and makes you a first class citizen, and all the other ones a second class citizen.

Don't worry, you're not alone. Far from it.

Its human nature, to look after their own, and it’s common in every country. You have a check to suggest that’s Xenophobic, racist & discriminatory particularly when it’s also practiced in your Country, Form memory I believe you are Polish (I could be mistaken). So Poland is the only country in the World both developed and under developed who will give a job, welfare, etc to someone before a Polish person, nice country makes being a Polish citizen pretty much pointless. I look forward to preferential treatment on the Job and welfare front in Poland.

As other posters have said trying getting in too America without a Visa and see how far you get, same with Australia.


You may not like it but it is practices in every country included your own, so point the finger at Poland for being racist, xenophobic and showing discrimination and when the problem is sorted out in your country, then come here and we can sort it out together.

soups05

this is so funny, i had a CV handed in by a young student the other day and she asked if i could glance over it to check it before passing onto the boss.

the english was perfect( spells better than i do anyway) but in the area for nationality she had put irish. as she was a chinese girl from the local collage and i knew her from coming into the shop i asked why she had put that on the CV.

i live in ireland for 3 months, i is irish now. pay taxes when work.i is irish.


poor girl,

_Nuno_

asdasd wrote: »

Every single nation on Earth control's it borders against others.

I am in favour of controlled immigration. Just not the idea that anybody who opposes it -is a xenophobe.

Who the hell is discussing immigration policies here? We are talking about people being given a fair chance when competing for a job, and not being dismissed based solely on their name. I am also in favor of controlled immigration, but that is not the issue being discussed here and is a different issue.

To me, anyone who thinks foreigners should be discriminated on the grounds of nationality when looking for a job is a xenophobe.

Dyr

WHat made me giggle was that the professor they got on newstalk this morning was, like every other quango employee in this country it seems, a brit :pac:

SWL

[quote=_Nuno_;60143270

To me, anyone who thinks foreigners should be discriminated on the grounds of nationality when looking for a job is a xenophobe.[/quote]


You don't know why one person is selected over another, so you’re basing your conclusion on your own racist/xenophobe opinions. If all things are equal between two candidates the candidate from that country gets the position. Happened to me in Aus don't see why people have a big problem with it.

Dudess

SWL wrote: »

I have a very foreign name, never stopped me from getting on, there appears to be a ever growing numbers of victims in society just get on with it.

If people are actually in with less of a chance of getting a job because of their name being "foreign", then "victimhood" is hardly what's stopping them from getting ahead...?

RaverRo808 wrote: »

employers especially in a recession are going to give preference to natives,mainly because they want to look after their ow n,its not racist its just human nature

Well according to this report, it's always been happening, not just during the recession... yet there were still the "they're takin' our jobs" cries.

most people on the dole I know are definatley in need of it,and I find this attitude 'most people on the dole are spongers' is a new form of discrimination

... except non Irish people on the dole?

Decker Numerous Blackhead wrote: »

Aren't the results based on this:

"Between March and October last year, researchers sent out pairs of matched CVs in response to 240 job adverts in administration, lower-level accountancy or in retail. The two fictitious applicants had equivalent qualifications, skills and expertise – all gained in Ireland – but while one candidate had an Irish name, the other was Asian, African or German.

Both candidates were invited for interview on 23 occasions. In 55 cases, the Irish names were called for interview and the foreign-named applicants were rejected, while in just 15 cases, the minority names were called and the Irish-named were ignored."

From the same article...

Yeah, I clarified that earlier - studies can be used to prove anything. I'm wagering if people with "foreign" names are less likely to get a job, it's simply because they are likely to be outnumbered by those with "Irish-sounding" names.

greendom wrote: »

I don't know about the others but I'm just concerned with fairness, that people be judged on merit, not nationality or any other discriminatory grounds.

What about a person who applies for a job here from, say, Greece (not living here) and it narrows down to just that person and an Irish person and both are pretty much the exact same in terms of experience, qualifications, competence etc... would you consider it unfair for the Irish person to be chosen? I personally wouldn't - it just seems practical.

soups05 wrote: »

this is so funny, i had a CV handed in by a young student the other day and she asked if i could glance over it to check it before passing onto the boss.

the english was perfect( spells better than i do anyway) but in the area for nationality she had put irish. as she was a chinese girl from the local collage and i knew her from coming into the shop i asked why she had put that on the CV.

i live in ireland for 3 months, i is irish now. pay taxes when work.i is irish.


poor girl,

Perhaps she felt it would make her job search easier?

_Nuno_ wrote: »

To me, anyone who thinks foreigners should be discriminated on the grounds of nationality when looking for a job is a xenophobe.

It's not really a case of "foreigners should be discriminated on the grounds of nationality" more a case of "Irish people should be prioritised" and depending on the case, that's not always unfair.

Capt'n Midnight

greendom wrote:

And as to Obama - has he announced that only native Americans can apply for these American jobs ? Think not

LOL
that's only 1.3% of the population

greendom

Dudess wrote: »

What about a person who applies for a job here from, say, Greece (not living here) and it narrows down to just that person and an Irish person and both are pretty much the exact same in terms of experience, qualifications, competence etc... would you consider it unfair for the Irish person to be chosen? I personally wouldn't - it just seems practical.

.

Well as an EU citizen the Greek person is just as entitled as the Irish person - but I suppose practicality would be the deciding factor and you would employ the person living in Ireland.

Just as if someone living in Donegal was up against a person from Dublin for a position in Dublin. If everything else was equal I imagine you would give it to the person already based in Dublin.

greendom

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

LOL
that's only 1.3% of the population

Tony Danza

I don't understand. It says "Both candidates were invited for interview on 23 occasions", isn't that the same number of interviews each?

Ginny

Great, there's something else I can blame on my stupid name!

ejmaztec

They could narrow it down further by seeing how many of those called for interviews were actually related to the head honcho. As things stand, there's more chance of Paddy Murphy being the interviewer's relative than Mbuntu Ndongo (unless the birth cert was completed by someone with dyslexia)

galah

And that's why, with German CVs, you have to submit a picture of yourself.

Cuts out all this nonsense of discriminating against nationality :P

(German marrying an Irishman with an Irish name. I've took one of your own, will eat all your sandwiches, and I'll take ALL your jobs now, thank you very much. And what can you do? Nothing. Muahahaha.)

(actually, no thank you. In my line of business, you NEED to have a foreign name, cause the 'natives' can't really do my job.)

Dyr

galah wrote: »

And that's why, with German CVs, you have to submit a picture of yourself.

So people are easier to round up the next time yiz decide to try take over ze world?:pac:

Tigger

the equal opps people are on mat cooper

they sent 480 similar cvs with forgien/irish sounding names and the irish names were far more likley to get an interview

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