Nurses claim they're 100e down a week over Budget

Dr Galen

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Conveniently nobody ever mentions that the overwhelming majority of workers in the private sector will not lose their jobs OR take a pay cut in the coming years. Many of those that do will be just responding to market forces for instance brickies getting paid 1.5k a week was never sustainable.

this is pretty insightful. Your totally right, the majority of people are still in work, and earning a wage. Many, many people have not had a pay drop. Instead of constantly focussing on the negative aspect, maybe, more support should be given to those employers who are riding out the recession, in order to create further jobs?

ionix5891

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

this is pretty insightful. Your totally right, the majority of people are still in work, and earning a wage. Many, many people have not had a pay drop. Instead of constantly focussing on the negative aspect, maybe, more support should be given to those employers who are riding out the recession, in order to create further jobs?

they can start by getting rid of all that damned red tape and paperwork thats to the left of my keyboard looking menacingly :pac:

Dr Galen

ionix5891 wrote: »

i didn't mean to come out as disrespecting nurses (ill need their help if ever end up in hospital)

was just trying to highlight that people in private sector are not doing to good at all and we don't have pensions in some cases or trade unions for that matter to complain on our behalf

just the Fingers Crossed **** Wont Hit the Fan and I dont End Up on the Dole Union

well you've got IBEC, or ISME for a start, or the various chambers groups around the country.

But i'd say your in the same boat as the majority of nurses (or other union members for that matter) in that the representative organisation for them, doesn't actually represent all that well. Lots of hot air, but no real action?

Dude, you have my sympathy, I respect anyone going out there and trying to make it on their own. It takes balls and hard work. I suspect though that it's not sympathy you need, but more customers.

Looking back at the nurses though, it could get very interesting though if they decide on industrial action. They will need to be very very careful how they play it, and the reasons for the action. I know for fact, that a lot of nurses would not be in favour of walkouts over pay, but when cutbacks start to effect patients and safety then that might be a different matter.

ixoy

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

this is pretty insightful. Your totally right, the majority of people are still in work, and earning a wage. Many, many people have not had a pay drop.

I'd love to see some figures on this. I imagine that very few will be getting rises - most will be on pay freezes and some more on cuts and others will just reduce staff instead. Companies would probably remove fringe benefits but it's all hearsay unless we see statistics.

Instead of constantly focussing on the negative aspect, maybe, more support should be given to those employers who are riding out the recession, in order to create further jobs?

IBEC and ICTU were in a Hell frozen over moment recently when they both agreed to this idea of stimulus. It's hard to argue against it. There's far too many punitive measures without any sign of them trying to get things back on track in even the smallest way (and yes, wage reduction is one of those measures).

K-9

kceire wrote: »

i earn 39k, so way less than the 60k figures you used, but heres my breakdown :

paye 137.61
prsi 107.00
income levy 30.59
pension contribution 67.17
pension levy 73.39

them figures are based on the new suplementary budget, so the total money down from say last year is :

paye 35
prsi 40
income levy of 30
pension levy of 73

which works out at about 90e per week, so your figures for the 60k earners may be not far off, i would of thought they would be down more compared to my salary which is only 66% of theires at 60k.

kceire wrote: »

just found out that because my pension levy has been reduced from the april budget, therefore i have more taxable income in which paye must be payed.

so in reality, last payday i paid €96 pension levy and €102 PAYE and this fortnight i pay €73 pension levy and €137 PAYE, so they give with one hand and take it straight back with the other :mad:

now its not the cuts i would be annoyed at, its still the unfair levy system that has somebody earning 10k more only payine a few €'s more on levies.

Your PAYE should have actually went down after the pension levy was introduced.

This month, your PAYE shouldn't have changed as the actual tax rates and tax credits haven't changed, barring a small adjustment to reflect the change in the pension levy. At a glance I can't see why the levy would go down by €23 and PAYE up by €35. The only thing I'm thinking is maybe when they doubled the Income Levy they added it on to PAYE for some reason.

Anyway, it would seem to be:

PAYE €35 (may include the additional Income levy)
Income Levy €30
PRSI €40 (though it should be €30 by my calculation)
Pension levy €73
TOTAL €178

The Pension Levy should be tax and PRSI deductible, so you should have noticed a PAYE reduction when the Pension levy came in. Assuming 20% Tax rate and the new 8.5% PRSI, about €40 per fortnight less.

TOTAL NET €138 per fortnight, €69 per week.

irish_bob

finn28 wrote: »

blame the public sector is that all anyone can do ? the average public sector employee like nurses gardai etc are the people working long shifts on nights and public holidays and christmas and the like they earn an average wage for a tough job and never benefited from the crazy money being paid out in the private sector in wages and bonus payments which public sector dont get. now the private sector are feeling the pinch its time to all blame the public employees ! anyone remembering it was the greed of the private sector i.e. banks builders auctioneers shops car dealers big companies that raped this country for so long

what are you talking about , nurses and gardai earn an average wage , they earn close to 20 k more than the average wage and are paid double time for working round xmas etc, the majority in the private sector didnt benefit a huge amount ( everyone benefited some ) during the boom where as absolutley everone in the public sector benefited considerably in the past ten years , expendeture ( mostly on wages ) increased enormously on the past decade

grahamo

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i really do worry about this country. If this forum and the posts I've been reading here in the last 6 months are anything representative of the population at large then we're screwed. Bitching, moaning and back-stabbing. ON ALL SIDES!
it's been said time and time again and it never seems to get through. Not every Public Service worker is a lazy good for nothing, pension grabbing moron, and the same way not every Private Sector worker is a corrupt builder or crazy banker.

Is it at all possible to debate and discuss the merits of a topic without resorting to the public Vs private mantra's every ****ing time. FFS lads, we have a shower of incompetent fools running the show, the country is an a pretty precarious state, and yet I've not heard or seen one decent attempt at some sort of popular protest. Coming onto an internet forum and lashing out at ordinary workers of all sides strikes me as nothing more than cowardice. If your all so fired up, why aren't you doing something to change things?

Everyone is angry, for different reasons, but some of the stuff I've been reading lately is shameful.

/rant

I can't speak for the whole country, I'm from Dublin and the views on these boards lately are not representative of the people. Far from it, most of the whingeing on here seems to be done by studenty types:)
Why are there so many IT people complaining? Are the wages **** in this industry?

irish_bob

grahamo wrote: »

I can't speak for the whole country, I'm from Dublin and the views on these boards lately are not representative of the people. Far from it, most of the whingeing on here seems to be done by studenty types:)
Why are there so many IT people complaining? Are the wages **** in this industry?

the overwhelming majority of studenty types as you call them are left wingers and therefore would be sympathetic and supportive to all things public sector

ixoy

grahamo wrote: »

Far from it, most of the whingeing on here seems to be done by studenty types:)

It's a bit like unions - the people who shout loudest and the most generally don't represent the majority who just want to keep the head down and get on with it.

Why are there so many IT people complaining? Are the wages **** in this industry?

I don't think it's particularly well paid given the hours and knowledge expected of you. It only goes into good money if you get some deep specialisation and then go free-lance consulting. That's verging wildly off topic.

K-9 - you've been doing a lot of number crunching on this stuff. Do my figures of 60K for a 100e a week reduction hold up?

hellboy99

I'd rather be down a 100 week than 400 and no job.

grahamo

irish_bob wrote: »

the overwhelming majority of studenty types as you call them are left wingers and therefore would be sympathetic and supportive to all things public sector

Until the day after their final exam when they get up, get a haircut, get a suit on, get a job and decide that everyone else has better working conditions, pensions etc. and its 'Just Not Fair':D

Gumbo

K-9 wrote: »

Your PAYE should have actually went down after the pension levy was introduced.

This month, your PAYE shouldn't have changed as the actual tax rates and tax credits haven't changed, barring a small adjustment to reflect the change in the pension levy. At a glance I can't see why the levy would go down by €23 and PAYE up by €35. The only thing I'm thinking is maybe when they doubled the Income Levy they added it on to PAYE for some reason.

Anyway, it would seem to be:

PAYE €35 (may include the additional Income levy)
Income Levy €30
PRSI €40 (though it should be €30 by my calculation)
Pension levy €73
TOTAL €178

The Pension Levy should be tax and PRSI deductible, so you should have noticed a PAYE reduction when the Pension levy came in. Assuming 20% Tax rate and the new 8.5% PRSI, about €40 per fortnight less.

TOTAL NET €138 per fortnight, €69 per week.

K-9, i honestly dont know, i have my 2 payslips here and my salary dept confirmed it was correct

i decided to leave it till next payday and see if it has stabilised, but the figures i posted were copied straight from my payslip.

if there any different in 2 weeks time i'll post back up and will scan in my payslips to show the figures taken.

but as in a post above, its not the cuts im annoyed with, we all have to help out and all that but its the unfair spread of the burden that doesnt help the average worker on an average wage trying to pay an inflated mortgage in a normal estate (finglas).

the levy still allows higher paid workers to pay only slightly more than lower paid.

irish_bob

did anyone hear the two nurses on with pat kenny this morning , one of them came out with the gormless line about how nurses never benefited one iota from the celtic tiger , this kind of waffle and frankly lies might have passed mustar a year ago but not when we have a country facing over 15% unemployment by next year combined with the highest paid nurses in europe

AARRRGH

The anger at the public service is because they are suffering the least, but are acting as if they are suffering the most.

Fat_Fingers

finn28 wrote: »

blame the public sector is that all anyone can do ? the average public sector employee like nurses gardai etc are the people working long shifts on nights and public holidays and christmas and the like they earn an average wage for a tough job and never benefited from the crazy money being paid out in the private sector in wages and bonus payments which public sector dont get. now the private sector are feeling the pinch its time to all blame the public employees ! anyone remembering it was the greed of the private sector i.e. banks builders auctioneers shops car dealers big companies that raped this country for so long

Ah dude please spare us David Beggs mantra of "the average public sector employee like nurses gardai etc"

We can all come up with our own "please let the other guy pay"

I work in private sector and and I'm also on average wage , took a 10 % pay cut because i was told not because i was asked. Other 25% staff got axed. So i'm the lucky one. Now with all the levies i barely pay the mortgage and the bills. I work 8-9 sometimes 10 hours a day , no paid overtime. every second weekend i have to work and that is not paid either.

You have to open your eyes and understand that not all of us in private sector are "greedy bankers, builders, auctioneers,dealers". I'm swimming against tide here, another levy or stealth tax and I'm under.

Gumbo

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

Ah dude please spare us David Beggs mantra of "the average public sector employee like nurses gardai etc"

We can all come up with our own "please let the other guy pay"

I work in private sector and and I'm also on average wage , took a 10 % pay cut because i was told not because i was asked. Other 25% staff got axed. So i'm the lucky one. Now with all the levies i barely pay the mortgage and the bills. I work 8-9 sometimes 10 hours a day , no paid overtime. every second weekend i have to work and that is not paid either.

You have to open your eyes and understand that not all of us in private sector are "greedy bankers, builders, auctioneers,dealers". I'm swimming against tide here, another levy or stealth tax and I'm under.

i feel your pain, but the PS are not immune to all these levies and stealth taxes either you know?

ionix5891

kceire wrote: »

i feel your pain, but the PS are not immune to all these levies and stealth taxes either you know?

but you in the public sector don't have to worry about being fired :rolleyes:

Gumbo

ionix5891 wrote: »

but you in the public sector don't have to worry about being fired :rolleyes:

why dont they, the PS is only as safe as the next budget.
what about all the temp staff and contract staff that will not get renewed?
you didnt care about the PS staff 5 years ago during the boom, why the change in heart?

ionix5891

kceire wrote: »

why dont they, the PS is only as safe as the next budget.
you didnt care about the PS staff 5 years ago during the boom, why the change in heart?

didnt care? how many newspaper articles, threads on forums and rants have been written about the ever growing public sector that is larger and better paid than any other country in the EU :rolleyes:

alot of people are having a change of heart as they are worrying about loosing their job or lost their jobs while on the other hand they see the public sector workers moaning about loosing some of their fat pensions and still getting high wages, cry me a river

yee got benchmarked up during good times, time to trim fat now

.

Fat_Fingers

kceire wrote: »

i feel your pain, but the PS are not immune to all these levies and stealth taxes either you know?

You get me wrong, i'm not bitching about PS... Only saying we all have to stop this nonsense of stereotyping private sector or public sector . Very large numbers in both ends are struggling to pay the bills. Its insulting and only outcome is you get scwable of "bottom feeders" in both sectors while bankers, builders and their Senior servant friends are laughing all the way to their golf course..

ionix5891

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

You get me wrong, i'm not bitching about PS... Only saying we all have to stop this nonsense of stereotyping privates sector or public sector . Very large numbers in both ends are struggling to pay the bills. Its insulting and only outcome is you get scwable of "bottom feeders" in both sectors while bankers, builders and their Senior servant friends are laughing all the way to their golf course..

true as i said everytime anyone from the public sector complaints how bad they have it makes everyone outside public sector squinge

yee have it better than the rest of the workforce right now, so stay quiet and quit complaining

Gumbo

ionix5891 wrote: »

didnt care? how many newspaper articles, threads on forums and rants have been written about the ever growing public sector that is larger and better paid than any other country in the EU :rolleyes:

alot of people are having a change of heart as they are worrying about loosing their job or lost their jobs while on the other hand they see the public sector workers moaning about loosing some of their fat pensions and still getting high wages, cry me a river

yee got benchmarked up during good times, time to trim fat now

.

not worth my breath repling to a factless rant.

ionix5891

kceire wrote: »

not worth my breath repling to a factless rant.

you want some facts?

The ESRI researchers Elish Kelly, Séamus McGuinness and Philip O'Connell, say the gap between public and private sector pay in Ireland is "far higher" than in many other countries. The average wage advantage increased to 20 per cent in 2006 from less than 10 per cent in 2003 due to several pay awards, while the pay gap in the rest of Europe rarely exceeds 10 per cent. "This differential would be difficult to justify in normal economic circumstances," they say.

Another discovery was that the margin by which public service workers outearned their private sector counterparts tended to be significantly larger at the bottom of the income distribution than at the top.

http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20081218113613/WP270.pdf

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015576.shtml

Gumbo

ionix5891 wrote: »

true as i said everytime anyone from the public sector complaints how bad they have it makes everyone outside public sector squinge

yee have it better than the rest of the workforce right now, so stay quiet and quit complaining

not one PS employee was moaning on this thread, myself included.
the OP was about a 100e figure being used as a payment towards levies etc etc and i came on and spilled out my personal info just to back the claim up thats all, and yet again it turns into PS V Private thread.

you came on talking about fat pensions when in fact only a few people benefite from the fat pensions, not the average worker. i done the figures in another thread and it will be 13 years into my retirement before the government has to pay for my pension, i'll be 78 by then.


edit - added figures :

my contributions from my salary of 39,873 is :

paye 137.61
prsi 107.00
income levy 30.59
pension contribution 67.17
pension levy 73.39
all of the above is per fortnight

so lets base it over 35 years which is all i will be with the PS if i last till 65 years old.

pension levy + pension contribution
= €67.17+€73.39
= €140.56 (per fortnight)

€140.56*26 = €3654.56 (per year)

€3654.56*35years = €127,909.60 of a pension fund.

so lets assume retirement at 65 and after 35 years service i get a lump sum of €55,000 as i only have 35 years service not 40 (€127,909.60-€55,000 = €72,909.60)

so my yearly pension is half salary which is €17,447. as i dont have the full 40 year service

€17,447/26 = €671.03 per fortnight

€671.03-state pension of (€230*2) = €211.03 per fortnight

so my PS pension is now €211.03 per fortnight

€72,909.60/€211.03 = 690 weeks (13 years)

so the pension costs the government nothing until after the 13th year of retirement. (78 years old)

hellboy99

kceire wrote: »

not one PS employee was moaning on this thread, myself included.

That may be true but out of this thread and on the streets a lot of people are angry at the ones that are moaning.

The majority of non PS workers do not begrudge what they earn, they are just fed up with all their recent maoning of how they are losing money each month, be it heard from the recent media coverage, the two nurses on the radio this morning, the now "poor" school teacher Carol O'Byrne... It doesn't help either when you and others in the PS put up your earnings that's just more "fuel to the fire".

For example, I worked in a factory for years, my take home was under €300 a week and I paid a pension contribution of €80 a month, what I took home a month is what you take home a fortnight, I would of been better off on the dole and that's no lie. Don't listen to the silly figures the government say the average worker in this country take home, the average worker takes home €300 - €340 a week, this is why they are maoning about PS employees giving out.

We are all hurting, you just don't hear as much moaning from the average worker because they have to cope and get on with things, the boom missed them and they did not go and buy "over valued homes with high mortage repayments, houses to rent, apartments abroad, second family car....", this is why they don't care about the so called troubles of the PS worker.

K-9

ixoy wrote: »

K-9 - you've been doing a lot of number crunching on this stuff. Do my figures of 60K for a 100e a week reduction hold up?

Roughly going on kceire wages and the fact that most people after 39k would be getting 41% tax relief on the Pension levy deduction, I'd say you aren't a mile off.

I think the Unions tend to quote the Gross Pension levy deduction and don't factor in the tax and PRSI deduction, which then leads to threads like yours Ixoy! Understandable!

Gumbo

hellboy99 wrote: »

That may be true but out of this thread and on the streets a lot of people are angry at the ones that are moaning.

The majority of non PS workers do not begrudge what they earn, they are just fed up with all their recent maoning of how they are losing money each month, be it heard from the recent media coverage, the two nurses on the radio this morning, the now "poor" school teacher Carol O'Byrne... It doesn't help either when you and others in the PS put up your earnings that's just more "fuel to the fire".

For example, I worked in a factory for years, my take home was under €300 a week and I paid a pension contribution of €80 a month, what I took home a month is what you take home a fortnight, I would of been better off on the dole and that's no lie. Don't listen to the silly figures the government say the average worker in this country take home, the average worker takes home €300 - €340 a week, this is why they are maoning about PS employees giving out.

We are all hurting, you just don't hear as much moaning from the average worker because they have to cope and get on with things, the boom missed them and they did not go and buy "over valued homes with high mortage repayments, houses to rent, apartments abroad, second family car....", this is why they don't care about the so called troubles of the PS worker.

excuse me but i put up my earnings to proove a point that we do indeed pay for our pensions. (well most) i added no fuel to no fire as i know many people in the private sector still earning what they did 5 years ago and my mate recently got a promotion and an 1100e per month pay increase, he works for a large tax/insurance consultants in christchurch, i dont begrudge him that, because he earns it, i dont go around looking for him to take a pay cut either.

my earnings are far from huge, far from overpaid and please dont forget that i dont have holiday homes, or second cars, i have a high mortgage on a modest 3 bed terrace house in bloody finglas so dont go and say now that i bought beyond my means or anything.

and also my take home pay is inline with my technical qualifications, and i dont mean to be rude but what were you doing in a factory to only earn 300e per week? some of my friends with no college, no qualifications etc etc earned very similar money as me working as GO's in factories and warehouses in Dublin during the boom.

K-9 wrote: »

Roughly going on kceire wages and the fact that most people after 39k would be getting 41% tax relief on the Pension levy deduction, I'd say you aren't a mile off.

I think the Unions tend to quote the Gross Pension levy deduction and don't factor in the tax and PRSI deduction, which then leads to threads like yours Ixoy! Understandable!

just to carry on from this post, although i earn 39k and am in the higher tax bracket, i still only get 20% reief on the levies etc etc as my taxable income falls in the lower rate if that makes any sense. i dont pretend to understand the tax laws im just stating this to aid with anybody trying to crunch the numbers.

hellboy99

kceire wrote: »

my earnings are far from huge, far from overpaid and please dont forget that i dont have holiday homes, or second cars, i have a high mortgage on a modest 3 bed terrace house in bloody finglas so dont go and say now that i bought beyond my means or anything.

I wasn't having a go at you, all I was saying is what a lot of non PS workers are saying due to recent media coverage and certain PS workers going on air complaining and giving the whole PS workers a bad name. I never directed what I said at you, I loved to have your wage, I have no doubt you work hard for it and have worked hard to get where you are, fair play to you.

kceire wrote: »

i dont mean to be rude but what were you doing in a factory to only earn 300e per week? some of my friends with no college, no qualifications etc etc earned very similar money as me working as GO's in factories and warehouses in Dublin during the boom.

I was working on assembly line at minimum wage and we the workers use to be sick and gobsmacked everytime we heard government and surveys been published saying the average wage for a factory worker was €400 - €500. I know plenty of people in various jobs at present, be it from factories to retail that take home between €300 - €350, some are supervisors too.