Tricolour ban for Irish gymnasts

futurehope

Raiser said:

Just because I am capable of recognising that the Taliban is part of modern day Afghanistan doesn't mean that the situation is desirable, sustainable, reasonable or, please God for all concerned, permanent.

Are you comparing militant Irish Republicans with The Taliban?

- Although to compare like with like - I never saw the the Taliban out shouting virulent and shameful abuse at tiny schoolchildren trying to make their way to primary school.......

They don't let them go to school (if they're girls).

O'Coonassa

Raiser wrote: »

Hasn't the British Empire given back almost all of the Colonies it bullied its way into?

Bullied it's way into with the help of many Irishmen lest we forget, (conveniently)

O'Coonassa

anonymous_joe wrote: »

The Golden Harp on green field one (no idea what it's called)

The Irish Flag.

O'Coonassa

Cliste wrote: »

I think that I can handle a word from the third verse being taken out. Ironically the Irish version uses the word 'bíoba' - ie enemy/foe (according to my dictionary here it has no Saxon conoctations)

But it was translated from the word Saxon and stinks of Victorian racialism. The notion of the Britons as Saxons is a funny one IMO.

Grudaire

O'Coonassa wrote: »

The Irish Flag.

Actually he's thinking of the Flag for Leinster - unofficially used as the flag for Ireland for a good while...

O'Coonassa wrote: »

But it was translated from the word Saxon and stinks of Victorian racialism. The notion of the Britons as Saxons is a funny one IMO.

Oh, I know that - I'm a fan of the old Gaeilge though. Apparently changing that one word (in the English version) would be enough for getz

O'Coonassa

Cliste wrote: »

Actually he's thinking of the Flag for Leinster - unofficially used as the flag for Ireland for a good while...

Well I'm still using it anyway I don't like the stripey one at all so I don't. If the green flag was good enough for the United Irishmen and the Fenians it's good enough for me!

Cliste wrote: »

Oh, I know that - I'm a fan of the old Gaeilge though. Apparently changing that one word (in the English version) would be enough for getz

I'd rather we had this instead tbh

Grudaire

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Well I'm still using it anyway I don't like the stripey one at all so I don't. If the green flag was good enough for the United Irishmen and the Fenians it's good enough for me!

I'd rather we had this instead tbh

Hey! Give Leinster their flag back - and give Africa their music back:p

IIMII

O'Coonassa wrote: »

But it was translated from the word Saxon and stinks of Victorian racialism. The notion of the Britons as Saxons is a funny one IMO.

No, the Britons aren't called Saxons in Gaeilge, only the English. In English though there are plenty of names for peoples and places that might seem strange or archaic to the people or those living in the places in question. You only have to consider how the native American's are called Indians though they have no more to do with India than Europeans do

el_tiddlero

Originally Posted by anonymous_joe
The Golden Harp on green field one (no idea what it's called)

That's the Leinster flag. The harp on a blue field is the flag for the whole island. Blue was traditionally the royal colour of Ireland. The harp was given to Ireland as it's symbol by Henry VIII. He remarked that governing the Irish was as difficult as playing the harp.

BAMN. Historified.

Terrontress

el_tiddlero wrote: »

That's the Leinster flag. The harp on a blue field is the flag for the whole island. Blue was traditionally the royal colour of Ireland. The harp was given to Ireland as it's symbol by Henry VIII. He remarked that governing the Irish was as difficult as playing the harp.

BAMN. Historified.

Is the Harp in relation to Ireland not to do with Brian Boru's Harp?

dresden8

futurehope wrote: »

Raiser said:



Well, I'd have thought it would be Irish Republicans who would favour The Nazi flag, given the fact that they collaborated with them during WWII

Now this is funny.

I wonder if the Brits have ever asked the country of Czechoslovakia about IRA collaboration with the Nazis.

You may remember the Brits signed Czechoslovakia over to the Nazis without a fight and also without consulting the Czechoslovakians.

Now how the fnck is that for collaboration!

http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/peacetime.html

We, the German Fuhrer and Chancellor, and the British Prime Minister, have had a further meeting today and are agreed in recognizing that the question of Anglo-German relations is of the first importance for our two countries and for Europe.

We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again.

We are resolved that the method of consultation shall be the method adopted to deal with any other questions that may concern our two countries, and we are determined to continue our efforts to remove possible sources of difference, and thus to contribute to assure the peace of Europe.

My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honor. I believe it is "peace for our time." Go home and get a nice quiet sleep

My italics.

Perfidious Albion indeed!

Nodin

futurehope wrote: »

Why should people from Northern Ireland be interested in the anthem of a foreign country?

Its a sporting event between NI and ROI, as far as I know. Why shouldn't each team get to play its anthem?

futurehope

Nodin wrote: »

Its a sporting event between NI and ROI, as far as I know. Why shouldn't each team get to play its anthem?

No reason at all - except you said NI had no anthem.

Nodin

futurehope wrote: »

No reason at all - except you said NI had no anthem.

emmmm....no?

Exile 1798

prinz wrote: »

It is the flag of the Republic and it represents far more than nationalists, and seeing it abused as a banner by the dregs of society, that sickens me. If people in the North want it to represent them, they're welcome to migrate here mate.

prinz wrote: »

The same scum who place it on the coffin of dead murderers, drug dealers, etc. Who say they can execute two young unarmed soldiers supposedly in it's name. They don't represent me, they don't reflect what this country is.


It is the flag of a Republic and should be treated as such, and not abused by terrorists.

The Tri-colour was introduced to Ireland by the terrorist/murderer/villain of the day Thomas Francis Meagher. It was made popular 60 years later when it was held aloft by the rebels of 1916, and we should all know what they where called.

Given that, I’d say that Republicans probably are on more solid ground then most when it comes to the right to use the flag. Certainly they’ve a much stronger case then people such as yourself who use the same hysterical language to attack them as was used to condemn who brought the flag to Ireland (Young Ireland) and those whose actions made it our National flag (Easter rebels).

timod

Nodin wrote: »

Its a sporting event between NI and ROI, as far as I know. Why shouldn't each team get to play its anthem?

It's a regional event. Ireland is divided up into 8 administrative regions in Gymnastics, and gymnasts qualify out of their region to compete at the national finals. The northern region includes part of leinster too. About 95% of those taking part will be kids. (http://www.irishgymnastics.ie)

Essentially what happened was that a standard checklist was sent to the host facility in newry - everything from making sure changing rooms were available, to counting the number of spectator seats, also on the list would have been mention of somewhere to hang the flag, and a stereo system to play the anthem, as would be done at all national events Then all of a sudden it escalated into a full scale council meeting!

Exile 1798

timod wrote: »

It's a regional event. Ireland is divided up into 8 administrative regions in Gymnastics, and gymnasts qualify out of their region to compete at the national finals. The northern region includes part of leinster too. About 95% of those taking part will be kids. (http://www.irishgymnastics.ie)

Essentially what happened was that a standard checklist was sent to the host facility in newry - everything from making sure changing rooms were available, to counting the number of spectator seats, also on the list would have been mention of somewhere to hang the flag, and a stereo system to play the anthem, as would be done at all national events Then all of a sudden it escalated into a full scale council meeting!

Ah good, finally someone who knows something about what they're talking about.

Nodin

timod wrote: »

It's a regional event. Ireland is divided up into 8 administrative regions in Gymnastics, and gymnasts qualify out of their region to compete at the national finals. The northern region includes part of leinster too. About 95% of those taking part will be kids. (http://www.irishgymnastics.ie)

Essentially what happened was that a standard checklist was sent to the host facility in newry - everything from making sure changing rooms were available, to counting the number of spectator seats, also on the list would have been mention of somewhere to hang the flag, and a stereo system to play the anthem, as would be done at all national events Then all of a sudden it escalated into a full scale council meeting!

Thank you Sir.

thebman

getz wrote: »

i am sure like minded people can come up with some sort of answer -but republic would have to change some of the provocative words in their anthem if its to be excepted by the brit/irish

lol its a historical song that most people can't even understand as its sung in a language they don't know.

I'd say get over it. It'll cause more problems trying to change it to something acceptable for everyone and it'll end up after 3 years of discussion that everyone will not be able to agree and will agree to disagree and leave it alone.

getz wrote: »

the only woods in it i would like to change is ;the saxon foe; and dont tell me its about the germans-remember GSTQ hasent any anti /any race words in it -its just about an old dear who represents the uk and northern ireland-not matter what the bigots claim .

Yeah but we are talking about modernizing anthems not really changing provocative words so I think some new song would better represent the modern UK or something that better reflects the increase in Muslim population in the UK. Lets be fair after all.

What a load of crap. Protesting a flag. What if they change the fabric used, would that be acceptable or if it was a slightly faded flag? Or if they hung it upside down

People in the north are wimps if they get upset over a flag. Don't worry it won't hurt you, not even if it falls down (the pole its attached to might but if bashes your nogin it might knock some sense into the person it hits).

Some ridiculously extreme views in this thread considering it is 2009 now FFS.

futurehope

dresden8 wrote: »

Now this is funny.

I wonder if the Brits have ever asked the country of Czechoslovakia about IRA collaboration with the Nazis.

You may remember the Brits signed Czechoslovakia over to the Nazis without a fight and also without consulting the Czechoslovakians.

Now how the fnck is that for collaboration!

http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/peacetime.html



My italics.

Perfidious Albion indeed!

I'm not going to get into a debate about the relative contributions of The UK and The Irish Free State to the fight against Nazi Germany. That would be too absurd for words. :rolleyes:

prinz

Exile 1798 wrote: »

The Tri-colour was introduced to Ireland by the terrorist/murderer/villain of the day Thomas Francis Meagher. It was made popular 60 years later when it was held aloft by the rebels of 1916, and we should all know what they where called.

Given that, I’d say that Republicans probably are on more solid ground then most when it comes to the right to use the flag. Certainly they’ve a much stronger case then people such as yourself who use the same hysterical language to attack them as was used to condemn who brought the flag to Ireland (Young Ireland) and those whose actions made it our National flag (Easter rebels).

Read Bunreacht na hÉireann much my friend? Relates to Republic of Ireland, not the island of Ireland.


By your reasoning we should readopt the Union Jack, as when it was introduced it included the flag of Ireland (*note relates to the island of Ireland and ALL on it), therefore if we want to back in time, I'd say the Union flag has a better claim to represent all Irish people.

The 'republicans' funny calling them that because they have by and large ignored the democratic will of the people repeatedly, have no right to use the tricolour since it was adotped as the flag of the Irish Free State, as they don't recognise the Republic as a legitimate country. If you don't recognise my country, don't abuse my flag.

oscarBravo

Any chance we can keep this on-topic - as in, a specific row over gymnastics in Newry? Ta.

JonathanAnon

futurehope wrote: »

Personally, I am totally opposed to 'All Ireland' teams (and indeed any other bodies). There is The ROI and there is Northern Ireland (British Ulster if you prefer), let's not confuse the two.

I agree. Our rugby team is the Irish rugby team, and should fly the Irish flag for them and sing the national anthem. If anyone playing for Ireland has a problem singing our anthem or flying our flag then they are not Irish and should not be playing for Ireland.

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote: »

Any chance we can keep this on-topic - as in, a specific row over gymnastics in Newry? Ta.

Should this be in the Sports forum then?

O'Coonassa

Exile 1798 wrote: »

The Tri-colour was introduced to Ireland by the terrorist/murderer/villain of the day Thomas Francis Meagher. It was made popular 60 years later when it was held aloft by the rebels of 1916, and we should all know what they where called.

Given that, I’d say that Republicans probably are on more solid ground then most when it comes to the right to use the flag. Certainly they’ve a much stronger case then people such as yourself who use the same hysterical language to attack them as was used to condemn who brought the flag to Ireland (Young Ireland) and those whose actions made it our National flag (Easter rebels).

From the flagpole Meagher's flag runs orange-white-green. The shinner flag that later became the national flag runs in the total opposite direction and originally had the orange replaced by vatican yellow.

The reason the shinners adopted it was because the Green flag, our old national flag that had been used by the Fenians and United Irish, was being used by home-rulers, and the shinners wanted to differentiate themselves from them because they're so very very special.

thebman

lol so in conclusion people can't even hate and be bigots accurately

Exile 1798

prinz wrote: »

Read Bunreacht na hÉireann much my friend? Relates to Republic of Ireland, not the island of Ireland.


By your reasoning we should readopt the Union Jack, as when it was introduced it included the flag of Ireland (*note relates to the island of Ireland and ALL on it), therefore if we want to back in time, I'd say the Union flag has a better claim to represent all Irish people.

The 'republicans' funny calling them that because they have by and large ignored the democratic will of the people repeatedly, have no right to use the tricolour since it was adotped as the flag of the Irish Free State, as they don't recognise the Republic as a legitimate country. If you don't recognise my country, don't abuse my flag.

What?

Let me put this simply. The Tri-colour is an Irish Republican flag, Irish Republicans have every right to use it.

O'Coonassa

Exile 1798 wrote: »

What?

Let me put this simply. The Tri-colour is an Irish Republican flag, Irish Republicans have every right to use it.

It's a Shinner flag. Shinners aren't Republicans they're Catholic Nationalists, always have been. If it's a Irish Republican flag then how come Wolfe Tone (not a Catholic) and the Fenians (excommunicated) flew a different one?

Exile 1798

O'Coonassa wrote: »

It's a Shinner flag. Shinners aren't Republicans they're Catholic Nationalists, always have been. If it's a Irish Republican flag then how come Wolfe Tone (not a Catholic) and the Fenians (excommunicated) flew a different one?

Because Wolfe Tone pre-dated it's creation by 50 years, as you no doubt know, so why would you even ask?

The Fenians didn't fly it, what is that meant to prove?

It was brought about by Young Ireland and their connection with France. There was no known standard way of flying it. Whether Orange-white-green, green-white-orange it hardly makes a difference.

O'Coonassa

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Because Wolfe Tone pre-dated it's creation by 50 years, as you no doubt know, so why would you even ask?

The Fenians didn't fly it, what is that meant to prove?

It was brought about by Young Ireland and their connection with France. There was no known standard way of flying it. Whether Orange-white-green, green-white-orange it hardly makes a difference.

It makes a difference because it proves Shinners didn't know what they were doing. Anyhow you could have fitted the Young Irelanders in your living room.

You'd think out of respect any true Irish Republicans would fly the flag used by the father of Irish Republicanism. Kind of makes sense.

The Fenians were Irish Republicans, they flew the green flag of the United Irish.

Exile 1798

O'Coonassa wrote: »

It makes a difference because it proves Shinners didn't know what they were doing. Anyhow you could have fitted the Young Irelanders in your living room.

Proves nothing of the sort. As I said, there was no standard.

But as it happens green first then white then orange seems to make more sense then any other configuration. Perhaps they knew quite well what they where doing.

O'Coonassa wrote: »

You'd think out of respect any true Irish Republicans would fly the flag used by the father of Irish Republicanism. Kind of makes sense.

The Fenians were Irish Republicans, they flew the green flag of the United Irish.

If someone had came to Theobald with a Tricolour I can’t help but think that'd he'd be anything but approving.

O'Coonassa

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Proves nothing of the sort. As I said, there was no standard.

There certainly was to the men who designed it and brought it back from France.

Exile 1798 wrote: »

But as it happens green first then white then orange seems to make more sense then any other configuration. Perhaps they knew quite well what they where doing.

See above, the Catholic Royalists in this country never knew what they were doing and always brought shíte down on our heads because of it. Thanks God for Republicanism and the notion we may be free when the last Kings and Queens are strangled with the guts of the last Priests and Popes.

The gap between Republicans and fake Republicans looks like this; Tone wanted the French to send the Pope to the guillotine, Dev and Gerry and Marty and all those boys kneeled down to kiss his ring.

Exile 1798 wrote: »

If someone had came to Theobald with a Tricolour I can’t help but think that'd he'd be anything but approving.

It was mostly like this in the time of Tone, and what need had he of it when the ancient harp of our fathers rallied Dissenter, Anglican and Catholic to it's cause in a way the imposter's rag has never done since?

Grudaire

O'Coonassa wrote: »

There certainly was to the men who designed it and brought it back from France.

But the one from French Flag has a fundamentally different meaning (I think you're trying to say that that's where the idea came from)

In the french flag the white stands for the Monachy, and the blue and red for the common folk - and the order signifies that the common folk control the Monarchy (as far as I remember)

Anyway what bleedin difference does it make. This is about the Irish National flag not being allowed to be flown up in Newry - and if you want to argue the exact definition of everything what I've just said you have a problem.

O'Coonassa

Cliste wrote: »

Anyway what bleedin difference does it make.

None whatsoever tbh. I was bored on teh interwebs and found some flag wavers annoying me. Sorry about that

junder

So i take it that this gymnastics group and competition was only for nationalists and republicans? hence the need to fly a tricolour

Exile 1798

O'Coonassa wrote: »

There certainly was to the men who designed it and brought it back from France.

Source?

O'Coonassa wrote: »

The gap between Republicans and fake Republicans looks like this; Tone wanted the French to send the Pope to the guillotine, Dev and Gerry and Marty and all those boys kneeled down to kiss his ring.

Source?

O'Coonassa wrote: »

It was mostly like this in the time of Tone, and what need had he of it when the ancient harp of our fathers rallied Dissenter, Anglican and Catholic to it's cause in a way the imposter's rag has never done since?

Oh Christ.

So Young Ireland where imposters.

Ancient Harp of our fathers? Sounds like you're the flag waver here.

Vinegar Hill

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Because Wolfe Tone pre-dated it's creation by 50 years, as you no doubt know, so why would you even ask?

The Fenians didn't fly it, what is that meant to prove?

It was brought about by Young Ireland and their connection with France. There was no known standard way of flying it. Whether Orange-white-green, green-white-orange it hardly makes a difference.

It would make a difference in the Ivory Coast.

Hagar

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm still waiting for many Republicans to accept the democratic view expressed by the vast majority in 1998 that Northern Ireland is in the UK.

Isn't the beauty of democracy the fact that people get to change their minds over time and vote for new outcomes? Otherwise why bother having elections every few years? Why not just have one election and stick with the outcome for ever and ever amen? Times change.

The reality is the demographic is slowly changing in NI. Eventually the Unionists, despite all their gerrymandering, will find themselves unable to maintain an artificial majority. When that day comes we could see a peaceful democratic reunion of this island. Who could object to that?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

well, anybody who doesn't want the republic infested with the jackassery that seems to be standard issue up north.

Hagar

But if it was the democratic wish of the majority you would have to live with those you don't agree with, much like now, wouldn't you?
Or does democracy only apply as long as the result suits certain people?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

no, I'd start a guerilla movement and start blowing up trad pubs.

Hagar

futurehope

Hagar wrote: »

The reality is the demographic is slowly changing in NI. Eventually the Unionists, despite all their gerrymandering, will find themselves unable to maintain an artificial majority. When that day comes we could see a peaceful democratic reunion of this island. Who could object to that?

They don't have an 'artificial majority'. I wasn't aware Irish Nationalism is a genetic trait. :rolleyes:

Hagar

Of course it's artificial, why didn't the British keep all of Ulster?
Why did they exclude the three Nationalist counties?
Answer to have an artificial majority in an artificial state-let.
Hardly deniable. :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

Usual reminder - if this goes down the handbagging route, it'll be closed.

moderately,
Scofflaw

O'Coonassa

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Source?

Here's one

"On April 15, 1848, in Dublin, Meagher presented the tricolor national flag of Ireland to the public for the first time at a meeting of the Young Irelander Party. In 1916, Meagher's flag was revived by the Irish Volunteers and later by Sinn Fein. Today, it is the flag of the Republic of Ireland, though Meagher's version had the orange stripe closest to the staff, while the modern version has the green stripe to the inside."

http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/meagher.html

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Source?

Here's one

Exile 1798 wrote: »

So Young Ireland where imposters.

Ancient Harp of our fathers? Sounds like you're the flag waver here.

Shinners were/are Republican imposters. They even wanted to crown some German prince as monarch ffs. Yes ancient harp, symbol of 'the dead generations' that the Shinners hitched a ride on the coat-tails of whilst failing entirely to stick to their legacy.

Kotek Besar

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Sorry mate but it is the flag of Ireland and represents people who want it to represent them in the north.

Yes, it is the flag of Ireland, the name of the sovereign state consisting of 26 counties and whose description is the Republic of Ireland.

This is different from it being the flag of Irish people, which your post seems to suggest.

Terrontress

Hagar wrote: »

Of course it's artificial, why didn't the British keep all of Ulster?
Why did they exclude the three Nationalist counties?
Answer to have an artificial majority in an artificial state-let.
Hardly deniable. :rolleyes:

I think you'll find a nationalist majority in more of the six counties than unionist.

Donegal was probably more unionist than many of those included in the six and still retains strong support for the Orange Order and Free Ps.

The bottom line though is that Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan are so sparsely populated when compared to Down, Antrim and Derry that their inclusion would have little effect on the democratic process.

Grudaire

Hagar wrote: »

Of course it's artificial, why didn't the British keep all of Ulster?
Why did they exclude the three Nationalist counties?
Answer to have an artificial majority in an artificial state-let.
Hardly deniable. :rolleyes:

Whats the bet's that as soon as it happens that they'll hand back Fermanagh, or Down and keep their majority!? :pac:

Junder wrote:

So i take it that this gymnastics group and competition was only for nationalists and republicans? hence the need to fly a tricolour

*proceeds to read out the 'symbolism' of the Irish flag*

"ahem - The green pale in the flag symbolises the older majority Gaelic tradition of Ireland. Green had long been associated with Ireland as a nation,[12][13] and with the revolutionary groups within it.[14] The orange represents the minority who were supporters of William of Orange. He, of the House of Orange and originally the Stadtholder of the Netherlands, had defeated King James II and his predominantly Irish Catholic army[15] at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. His title came from the Principality of Orange in the south of France that had been a Protestant bastion from the 1500s. It was included in the Irish flag in an attempt to reconcile the Orange Order in Ireland with the Irish independence movement.[14] The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the two cultures and a living together in peace.[16] The flag, as a whole, is intended to symbolise the inclusion and hoped-for union of the people of different traditions on the island of Ireland, which is expressed in the Constitution as the entitlement of every person born in Ireland to be part of the independent Irish nation, regardless of ethnic origin, religion or political conviction."

[Shamelessly copied and pasted from wikipedia - but sure if you didn't bother to read my earlier posts why should I put an effort in either?]

futurehope

Hagar wrote: »

Of course it's artificial, why didn't the British keep all of Ulster?
Why did they exclude the three Nationalist counties?
Answer to have an artificial majority in an artificial state-let.
Hardly deniable. :rolleyes:

Why didn't they keep all of Ireland?

What guys like you need to do is look at historical maps of Europe and see the borders float all over the place. States rose and fell all the time. There's nothing special about The British Isles let alone the island of Ireland. No law was handed down to Moses saying all of the Island of Ireland had to be one independent state. Your problem is you believe in a strange religion called 'Irish Republicanism'. You'll grow out of it someday.

Good luck.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: