Tricolour ban for Irish gymnasts

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

no, I'd start a guerilla movement and start blowing up trad pubs.

Hagar

futurehope

Hagar wrote: »

The reality is the demographic is slowly changing in NI. Eventually the Unionists, despite all their gerrymandering, will find themselves unable to maintain an artificial majority. When that day comes we could see a peaceful democratic reunion of this island. Who could object to that?

They don't have an 'artificial majority'. I wasn't aware Irish Nationalism is a genetic trait. :rolleyes:

Hagar

Of course it's artificial, why didn't the British keep all of Ulster?
Why did they exclude the three Nationalist counties?
Answer to have an artificial majority in an artificial state-let.
Hardly deniable. :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

Usual reminder - if this goes down the handbagging route, it'll be closed.

moderately,
Scofflaw

O'Coonassa

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Source?

Here's one

"On April 15, 1848, in Dublin, Meagher presented the tricolor national flag of Ireland to the public for the first time at a meeting of the Young Irelander Party. In 1916, Meagher's flag was revived by the Irish Volunteers and later by Sinn Fein. Today, it is the flag of the Republic of Ireland, though Meagher's version had the orange stripe closest to the staff, while the modern version has the green stripe to the inside."

http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/meagher.html

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Source?

Here's one

Exile 1798 wrote: »

So Young Ireland where imposters.

Ancient Harp of our fathers? Sounds like you're the flag waver here.

Shinners were/are Republican imposters. They even wanted to crown some German prince as monarch ffs. Yes ancient harp, symbol of 'the dead generations' that the Shinners hitched a ride on the coat-tails of whilst failing entirely to stick to their legacy.

Kotek Besar

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Sorry mate but it is the flag of Ireland and represents people who want it to represent them in the north.

Yes, it is the flag of Ireland, the name of the sovereign state consisting of 26 counties and whose description is the Republic of Ireland.

This is different from it being the flag of Irish people, which your post seems to suggest.

Terrontress

Hagar wrote: »

Of course it's artificial, why didn't the British keep all of Ulster?
Why did they exclude the three Nationalist counties?
Answer to have an artificial majority in an artificial state-let.
Hardly deniable. :rolleyes:

I think you'll find a nationalist majority in more of the six counties than unionist.

Donegal was probably more unionist than many of those included in the six and still retains strong support for the Orange Order and Free Ps.

The bottom line though is that Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan are so sparsely populated when compared to Down, Antrim and Derry that their inclusion would have little effect on the democratic process.

Grudaire

Hagar wrote: »

Of course it's artificial, why didn't the British keep all of Ulster?
Why did they exclude the three Nationalist counties?
Answer to have an artificial majority in an artificial state-let.
Hardly deniable. :rolleyes:

Whats the bet's that as soon as it happens that they'll hand back Fermanagh, or Down and keep their majority!? :pac:

Junder wrote:

So i take it that this gymnastics group and competition was only for nationalists and republicans? hence the need to fly a tricolour

*proceeds to read out the 'symbolism' of the Irish flag*

"ahem - The green pale in the flag symbolises the older majority Gaelic tradition of Ireland. Green had long been associated with Ireland as a nation,[12][13] and with the revolutionary groups within it.[14] The orange represents the minority who were supporters of William of Orange. He, of the House of Orange and originally the Stadtholder of the Netherlands, had defeated King James II and his predominantly Irish Catholic army[15] at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. His title came from the Principality of Orange in the south of France that had been a Protestant bastion from the 1500s. It was included in the Irish flag in an attempt to reconcile the Orange Order in Ireland with the Irish independence movement.[14] The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the two cultures and a living together in peace.[16] The flag, as a whole, is intended to symbolise the inclusion and hoped-for union of the people of different traditions on the island of Ireland, which is expressed in the Constitution as the entitlement of every person born in Ireland to be part of the independent Irish nation, regardless of ethnic origin, religion or political conviction."

[Shamelessly copied and pasted from wikipedia - but sure if you didn't bother to read my earlier posts why should I put an effort in either?]

futurehope

Hagar wrote: »

Of course it's artificial, why didn't the British keep all of Ulster?
Why did they exclude the three Nationalist counties?
Answer to have an artificial majority in an artificial state-let.
Hardly deniable. :rolleyes:

Why didn't they keep all of Ireland?

What guys like you need to do is look at historical maps of Europe and see the borders float all over the place. States rose and fell all the time. There's nothing special about The British Isles let alone the island of Ireland. No law was handed down to Moses saying all of the Island of Ireland had to be one independent state. Your problem is you believe in a strange religion called 'Irish Republicanism'. You'll grow out of it someday.

Good luck.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

junder

Cliste wrote: »

Whats the bet's that as soon as it happens that they'll hand back Fermanagh, or Down and keep their majority!? :pac:



*proceeds to read out the 'symbolism' of the Irish flag*

"ahem - The green pale in the flag symbolises the older majority Gaelic tradition of Ireland. Green had long been associated with Ireland as a nation,[12][13] and with the revolutionary groups within it.[14] The orange represents the minority who were supporters of William of Orange. He, of the House of Orange and originally the Stadtholder of the Netherlands, had defeated King James II and his predominantly Irish Catholic army[15] at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. His title came from the Principality of Orange in the south of France that had been a Protestant bastion from the 1500s. It was included in the Irish flag in an attempt to reconcile the Orange Order in Ireland with the Irish independence movement.[14] The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the two cultures and a living together in peace.[16] The flag, as a whole, is intended to symbolise the inclusion and hoped-for union of the people of different traditions on the island of Ireland, which is expressed in the Constitution as the entitlement of every person born in Ireland to be part of the independent Irish nation, regardless of ethnic origin, religion or political conviction."

[Shamelessly copied and pasted from wikipedia - but sure if you didn't bother to read my earlier posts why should I put an effort in either?]

irrespective of what republicans would like or pretend to want the tricolour to represent to me its nothing more then a foreign flag, so was this competition just for nationalists and republicans or was it a international event in which many different countries were present and flying their own nation flags since these are the only 2 circumstances in which there would be any need for the tricolour.

futurehope

Cliste said:

Whats the bet's that as soon as it happens that they'll hand back Fermanagh, or Down and keep their majority!? :pac:

Hand back? Who to?

*proceeds to read out the 'symbolism' of the Irish flag*

"ahem - The green pale in the flag symbolises the older majority Gaelic tradition of Ireland. Green had long been associated with Ireland as a nation,[12][13] and with the revolutionary groups within it.[14] The orange represents the minority who were supporters of William of Orange. He, of the House of Orange and originally the Stadtholder of the Netherlands, had defeated King James II and his predominantly Irish Catholic army[15] at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. His title came from the Principality of Orange in the south of France that had been a Protestant bastion from the 1500s. It was included in the Irish flag in an attempt to reconcile the Orange Order in Ireland with the Irish independence movement.[14] The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the two cultures and a living together in peace.[16] The flag, as a whole, is intended to symbolise the inclusion and hoped-for union of the people of different traditions on the island of Ireland, which is expressed in the Constitution as the entitlement of every person born in Ireland to be part of the independent Irish nation, regardless of ethnic origin, religion or political conviction."

[Shamelessly copied and pasted from wikipedia - but sure if you didn't bother to read my earlier posts why should I put an effort in either?]

Doesn't really answer Junder's point, which was:

"So i take it that this gymnastics group and competition was only for nationalists and republicans? hence the need to fly a tricolour"

Nowhere in the above quote are the words Unionist/Loyalist mentioned. The conflict was/is over national identity - not religion. The Irish tricolour does not represent Unionists/Loyalists and never will.

Lobster

futurehope wrote: »

Cliste said:



Hand back? Who to?



Doesn't really answer Junder's point, which was:

"So i take it that this gymnastics group and competition was only for nationalists and republicans? hence the need to fly a tricolour"

Nowhere in the above quote are the words Unionist/Loyalist mentioned. The conflict was/is over national identity - not religion. The Irish tricolour does not represent Unionists/Loyalists and never will.

This could go on and on, why can't both flags be flown then?

Elliemental

The Unionists are really going to have to make more of an effort to move on from this pettiness. Even if the gymnasts were competing in Britain, they'd still be able to display their national flag. Besides, the displaying of the Union Jack offends many people round here, but the Unionists wont let a little thing like that get in the way.

Grudaire

junder wrote: »

irrespective of what republicans would like or pretend to want the tricolour to represent to me its nothing more then a foreign flag, so was this competition just for nationalists and republicans or was it a international event in which many different countries were present and flying their own nation flags since these are the only 2 circumstances in which there would be any need for the tricolour.

futurehope wrote: »

doesn't really answer Junder's point, which was:

"So i take it that this gymnastics group and competition was only for nationalists and republicans? hence the need to fly a tricolour"

Nowhere in the above quote are the words Unionist/Loyalist mentioned. The conflict was/is over national identity - not religion. The Irish tricolour does not represent Unionists/Loyalists and never will.

I'll answer these two at once: Apparently the Irish National anthem is acceptable at the event - so why not the Irish Flag as well?

To be honest I understand that the Irish flag is not the national flag to unionists -and never will (it is quite obviously the union jack). However I don't see the problem with a flag which is clearly stated to signify a peace between the two different traditions in Ireland.

I would understand the complaints if the flag was like this:

futurehope wrote: »

Hand back? Who to?

To the people of Ireland, from whom the forcible took it so many years ago.

sdanseo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What if their home is in Ireland?

There seem also to be a lot of people in the republic who give themselves a problem with the union flag being flown here.

We'll fly it out of the GPO so, if you had your way?

Theres a major difference -and I'm sorry to lower the tone but let's face facts here - they invaded us, not the other way around. It's dramatically unfair to compare a tricolour being flown in the North to a Union Jack down here.

Completely OT: Make NI independent, solve ALL the problems.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

they invaded nobody, they were born there ffs.

O'Coonassa

sdonn wrote: »

let's face facts here - they invaded us, not the other way around.

There's over 5 million Irish in the UK. And if 'they' invaded us then how come 'they' have got names like O'Neill and Murphy and 'we' have names like Masterson and Nixon etc. Most of the people that came here from the other island were transplanted here and had no choice in the matter. The Normans and the Pope were invited in. There's been human traffic between Ulster and Scotland since the stone age. Revisit your history books and don't ignore the facts.

wolfpawnat

Well as one of the only people that probably will stay on topic I have to say it's unfair not to have the Irish flag there because when England/NI/Scotland/Wales are involved in sports in Ireland e.g. Rugby, Showjumping, etc we allow them to have their flags!

sdanseo

Captain Mords Spiced Bum wrote: »

they invaded nobody, they were born there ffs.

O'Coonassa wrote: »

There's over 5 million Irish in the UK. And if 'they' invaded us then how come 'they' have got names like O'Neill and Murphy and 'we' have names like Masterson and Nixon etc. Most of the people that came here from the other island were transplanted here and had no choice in the matter. The Normans and the Pope were invited in. There's been human traffic between Ulster and Scotland since the stone age. Revisit your history books and don't ignore the facts.

I dont question either comment. I mean in a political sense, NI was part of the UK/British Empire and still is.

Yes, the people living there now were born there. But many are descended of "planted" folk from England, Scotland and Wales and you'll find that these are the people advocating that NI remains in the UK.

In fact, all their ancestors did was move hapily onto land that was stolen from those who owned, before likely employing the said owners as underpaid servants. I know that's as good as irrelevant now, socially speaking, but to a lot of people it remains a debt to be paid.

And dont shoot the messenger. Im not a begrudger, I'm merely addressing the above statements - I would be happiest if the 6 counties could be cast off to sea, if they could sustain themselves.

On topic is best, so that aside - why is the anthem but not the flag appropriate? Ireland's Call was creted because the anthem wasn't "suitable" so what;s different about gymnastics? Will there now be some makey-up All-Ireland gymnastics flag created?

conchubhar1

if you dont want to see an irish flag on the island of ireland - then **** off back to the country where the flag you want to see can be seen (anywhere on the mainland of britain)

futurehope

Cliste wrote: »

I'll answer these two at once: Apparently the Irish National anthem is acceptable at the event - so why not the Irish Flag as well?

To be honest I understand that the Irish flag is not the national flag to unionists -and never will (it is quite obviously the union jack). However I don't see the problem with a flag which is clearly stated to signify a peace between the two different traditions in Ireland.

I would understand the complaints if the flag was like this:





To the people of Ireland, from whom the forcible took it so many years ago.

Look - I have no problem with the Irish flag being used to represent The Irish Republic and I have no problem with The Irish National anthem being sung in representation of The Irish Republic. What I do have a problem with is any and all 'All Ireland' organisations, sporting or otherwise. If these organisations do exist then under no circumstance should the flag of The Irish Republic or the anthem of The Irish Republic be used in representation of said organisations. Another flag and anthem should be selected.

As for 'the people of Ireland', who the hell are they? The island of Ireland was part of The UK and twenty six of it's counties broke away following the will of those who lived there. Six counties remained part of The UK following the will of those who lived there. There were of course dissenters on both sides of the new border. New states and new borders were formed all the time in history, usually not by democracy (because democracy is a modern construct). Examples of new states include Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, etc, etc, etc. New borders were set after WWII effecting France, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, etc, etc, etc. Europe's borders have continued to change since then.

It doesn't matter one jot even if a people called the 'X' living on an island called 'Y' even saw themselves initially as one people, they can still choose to split the island in two and become two new peoples 'Y' and 'Z' living in new states called 'A' and 'B'. This is called self determination and does not just apply to one area of land (for example an island) taken as one people.

futurehope

sdonn wrote: »

In fact, all their ancestors did was move hapily onto land that was stolen from those who owned, before likely employing the said owners as underpaid servants. I know that's as good as irrelevant now, socially speaking, but to a lot of people it remains a debt to be paid.

Then they're mentally ill. :rolleyes:

Kotek Besar

conchubhar1 wrote: »

if you dont want to see an irish flag on the island of ireland - then **** off back to the country where the flag you want to see can be seen (anywhere on the mainland of britain)

You're forgetting that the Tricolour is the flag of Ireland (the sovereign state), not of Ireland (the island of).

P. Breathnach

sdonn wrote: »

We'll fly [the union flag] out of the GPO so, if you had your way?

That's a spiteful misrepresentation of what I said. I suppose it makes you feel like a good patriot.

Grudaire

*clap clap clap* - wonderful speech, lacks any valid points - but we can work on that. And I must congratulate you on finally working the quote function right. Anyway I digress:

futurehope wrote: »

Look - I have no problem with the Irish flag being used to represent The Irish Republic and I have no problem with The Irish National anthem being sung in representation of The Irish Republic. What I do have a problem with is any and all 'All Ireland' organisations, sporting or otherwise. If these organisations do exist then under no circumstance should the flag of The Irish Republic or the anthem of The Irish Republic be used in representation of said organisations. Another flag and anthem should be selected.

I will first point you to the http://www.northernirelandgymnastics.org/, It just happens that there are some clubs in: http://www.irishgymnastics.ie (List Northern clubs). I'm not sure if that's that argument out?

futurehope wrote: »

As for 'the people of Ireland', who the hell are they? The island of Ireland was part of The UK and twenty six of it's counties broke away following the will of those who lived there. Six counties remained part of The UK following the will of those who lived there. There were of course dissenters on both sides of the new border. New states and new borders were formed all the time in history, usually not by democracy (because democracy is a modern construct). Examples of new states include Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, etc, etc, etc. New borders were set after WWII effecting France, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, etc, etc, etc. Europe's borders have continued to change since then.

This is the problem with history - we all choose our time zero, and say how it has changed since then. I'm sure if you look a bit further back in those history books you will understand what I mean:rolleyes:

futurehope wrote: »

It doesn't matter one jot even if a people called the 'X' living on an island called 'Y' even saw themselves initially as one people, they can still choose to split the island in two and become two new peoples 'Y' and 'Z' living in new states called 'A' and 'B'. This is called self determination and does not just apply to one area of land (for example an island) taken as one people.

But the thing is that they didn't choose to split the Island up. a minority agreed, as did the rulers at the time. What we have is three peoples X,Y,Z - X and Y want a free united Ireland, Z doesn't. Y and Z live together. A decree comes down saying that Z get's it's way, X is too much hassle so gets rid of them, Y are a mere inconvenience

Hagar

futurehope wrote: »

Why didn't they keep all of Ireland?

They couldn't. :pac:

futurehope wrote: »

No law was handed down to Moses saying all of the Island of Ireland had to be one independent state.

Worked for Isreal.;)

futurehope wrote: »

Your problem is you believe in a strange religion called 'Irish Republicanism'. You'll grow out of it someday.

Keep me personally out of this. Pass no remarks about me as an individual. This a discussion forum. You will gain no points for personal attacks.:mad:


I'm out of smilies now.

O'Coonassa

sdonn wrote: »

Yes, the people living there now were born there. But many are descended of "planted" folk from England, Scotland and Wales and you'll find that these are the people advocating that NI remains in the UK.

My point was that many of those who were transplanted (often by force on pain of death) are actually Irish nationalists whilst many so called 'natives' are actually British nationalists. Just in my own parish we have Nixon's Dixon's, Thackaberry's and Masterson's who all go to mass every Sunday and Murphy's and O'Neills who go to Anglican services. After 400 odd years it isn't at all as clear cut as people make it out to be.

Kotek Besar

Indeed. Even Adams is an English surname.

futurehope

Cliste said:

But the thing is that they didn't choose to split the Island up. a minority agreed, as did the rulers at the time. What we have is three peoples X,Y,Z - X and Y want a free united Ireland, Z doesn't. Y and Z live together. A decree comes down saying that Z get's it's way, X is too much hassle so gets rid of them, Y are a mere inconvenience

That is all completely irrelevant. If the majority in six counties choose to go one way and the majority in 26 counties chooses to go another way then both have exercised self determination. Those in the 26 counties do not have the right to force their will on those in the six counties. And following your example above, The UK did not have the right to dictate to those in the six counties how they should exercise self determination any more than they had the right to dictate to the twenty six counties.

Do you accept that Connaught has the right to sede from The Republic and form a completely new nation state? I would say yes, providing a majority of those who actually live there vote for it. This is called self determination - The ROI would not have the right to stop it. And yes, this would still apply even if a minority within Connaught did not want independence and even if the majority within The Republic did not want independence for Connaught. International law is quite plain on this matter. It would then be up to Connaught to seek recognition internationally of other sovereign states.