Manchester United v FC Barcelona - Champions league Final

DM_7

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Utd dont seem to be able to create as many goal scoring opportunities against better teams as they used to.
The no of shots on target seems to be lower than normal.
Last night they had 2 shots on target.Rubbish .
I've watched alot of matches this season and the no of clearcut chances created in alot of matches was very low as was the no of shots on target.
Utd always had a reputation for playing great attacking football but I'm not sure thats the case anymore.

Its true. I struggled all season to figure it out but they were less fluid in attack for certain. In 07/08 Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez scored and created many chances as they moved around and were hard to defend against.

In 08/09 there was more focus on keeping possession than attack.

After 1999 opposition teams figured united out so I think Fergie didn't want teams figuring out united in 2009. It looked to me like United set out to refine the teams approach this season and this unfortunately stifled the attack as they became more rigid.

This was okay for most of the season, but when you go a goal down it can be hard to change the game plan and thats why last nights game went so bad for united.

OPENROAD

Barcelona (Barcelona fan)

Boggles wrote: »

Arsenal 2-1

---

Fantasic game, which United dominated but didn't take their chances.

United doinated you sure about that

MisterAnarchy

Barcelona (Neutral)

DM-ICE wrote: »

Its true. I struggled all season to figure it out but they were less fluid in attack for certain. In 07/08 Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez scored and created many chances as they moved around and were hard to defend against.

In 08/09 there was more focus on keeping possession than attack.

After 1999 opposition teams figured united out so I think Fergie didn't want teams figuring out united in 2009. It looked to me like United set out to refine the teams approach this season and this unfortunately stifled the attack as they became more rigid.

This was okay for most of the season, but when you go a goal down it can be hard to change the game plan and thats why last nights game went so bad for united.

Thoroughly agree.
I think it is fear of losing away matches in Europe that has changed to this more cautious approach.
Ferguson realises he has match winners like Ronaldo and to a lesser extent Rooney in his team.
He used to believe in outscoring opponents.
In away European matches his primary concern is keeping a clean sheet and hoping that the front 3 can create something ,often with very limited opportunities.
It worked against Porto and Arsenal shot themselves in the foot.
I notice that the central midfielders dont seem to get into the opponents final third that much anymore .
Perhaps he realises he doesnt have the midfield to play an expansive game away from home in Europe or perhaps its just caution.

Last nights team was setup to try and nick a goal and hold onto it.
Once they went a goal down plan A went out the window and there was no plan B.

CoachBoone

Well done Barcelona. I can't even attempt to begrudge you the victory, fully deserved. The better side by a clear distance and that pains me to say.

Barcelona were simply amazing last night.

As an aside though, I got a text off someone yesterday after the match, he said to me "a failure of a season for United, going for the quintuple and only ending with one key trophy"

Keep failing so United. Keep failing.

Boggles

OPENROAD wrote: »

United doinated you sure about that

It was a very open game, excellent in fact.

United had the greater possession, and 4 or 5 clear cut chances, glaring misses.

Again nothing to do with being dominated, but poor finishing.

SlickRic

Don't care (just want the game to be a cracker)

Boggles wrote: »

I'll just deal with this one first.

72% possession, 31 shots to Sunderlands 3, 0 on target.??

Again like I said poor finishing.

if you honestly say you've been more than happy with your midfield, and think it's up to scratch with other utd teams of the past, then there's nothing i can do.

but if i was a utd fan, i know where i'd want improvement, because you haven't steamrolled teams like we're all used to.

and it's not all down to 'taking chances'. utd have consistently been top scorers in the league for the last decade, and now they struggle?

as i say though, it's just my opinion based on what i've seen. i may get a couple of games wrong, like maybe the one above (though as you'll see below i'm not convinced), but i'm almost positive it's due to a midfield that's not up to usual high standards.

maybe the chances you're creating aren't as clear cut as usual? maybe there's more long-range shots than before? you're not getting in behind the same due to lack of something in the middle? that's why you can come out with '31 shots' stats as if you were carving them open? you could probably do the same with the Blackburn game, because i don't remember stats or go look them up. but it's not the wave after wave i'm used to seeing where the opposition keeper is dying on his feet from the pressure.

i know what i've seen.

DM_7

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Thoroughly agree.
I think it is fear of losing away matches in Europe that has changed to this more cautious approach.
Ferguson realises he has match winners like Ronaldo and to a lesser extent Rooney in his team.
He used to believe in outscoring opponents.
In away European matches his primary concern is keeping a clean sheet and hoping that the front 3 can create something ,often with very limited opportunities.
It worked against Porto and Arsenal shot themselves in the foot.
I notice that the central midfielders dont seem to get into the opponents final third that much anymore .
Perhaps he realises he doesnt have the midfield to play an expansive game away from home in Europe or perhaps its just caution.

Last nights team was setup to try and nick a goal and hold onto it.
Once they went a goal down plan A went out the window and there was no plan B.

All true.

Somewhere along the way Ferie must of decided if United want to win in europe we have to play our league games and euro games the same. Two losses in 26 euro games justifies that style of thinking. The bad thing was it reduced the attacking instincts and its tough to flick the switch. If pique didn't make that early block united would of been sitting pretty.

I still think united have a great side and only need small adjustments for next season. I think Fergie needs to find a left sided player so Rooney can be allowed play up front every week and that would be a big plus on the creative side.

JPA

Good article on guardiola, even if it is The Sun.

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

if you honestly say you've been more than happy with your midfield, and think it's up to scratch with other utd teams of the past, then there's nothing i can do.

I'm delighted with Carrick in midfield, since he joined the club in 2006 he has yet not to win a league title. Scholes has been hit and miss this season, but excellent in the previous two. Fletcher is a goalith in the midfield, truely outstanding when asked to perform in the big matches. Giggs has been asked to play a central role this season, he didn't deserve player of the year, but he did deserve to be dominated. Anderson is still young, has great potential and has shown he can be fantastic, jury is still out on him thou. By all accounts Hargreaves operation has been a success, add him to that mix next season, with hopefully a new signing, Central/Left midfielder.

SlickRic wrote: »

but if i was a utd fan, i know where i'd want improvement, because you haven't steamrolled teams like we're all used to.

and it's not all down to 'taking chances'. utd have consistently been top scorers in the league for the last decade, and now they struggle?

United scored 12 goals less than they did in the league last year, if your talking steam rolling, we did do that to one team last year, beating Newcastle 11-1.

SlickRic wrote: »

as i say though, it's just my opinion based on what i've seen. i may get a couple of games wrong, like maybe the one above (though as you'll see below i'm not convinced), but i'm almost positive it's due to a midfield that's not up to usual high standards.

maybe the chances you're creating aren't as clear cut as usual? maybe there's more long-range shots than before? you're not getting in behind the same due to lack of something in the middle? that's why you can come out with '31 shots' stats as if you were carving them open? you could probably do the same with the Blackburn game, because i don't remember stats or go look them up. but it's not the wave after wave i'm used to seeing where the opposition keeper is dying on his feet from the pressure.

i know what i've seen.

The 4 games you keep mentioning are the Chelsea, Sunderland, Villa and Blackbun game.

1 draw, 3 wins.

OPENROAD

Barcelona (Barcelona fan)

Boggles wrote: »

It was a very open game, excellent in fact.

United had the greater possession, and 4 or 5 clear cut chances, glaring misses.

Again nothing to do with being dominated, but poor finishing.

I agree it was a very open game but to say utd dominated is well wide of the mark, Arsenal also several clear cut chances , Arsenal could have scored several more goals, just as utd could well have won the match,utd shaded possession but that does not tell the whole story, as Alex Ferguson said it was "fantasy football".

Boggles

OPENROAD wrote: »

I agree it was a very open game but to say utd dominated is well wide of the mark, Arsenal also several clear cut chances , Arsenal could have scored several more goals, just as utd could well have won the match,utd shaded possession but that does not tell the whole story, as Alex Ferguson said it was "fantasy football".

Just the point I was making, United dominated possession and the chances.

It was said that United were over run in that particular game, which is untrue.

I wasn't having a go at Arsenal Openroad, considering there injuries they deserved the win, although most of it was Nevilles fault. :pac:

OPENROAD

Barcelona (Barcelona fan)

Boggles wrote: »

Just the point I was making, United dominated possession and the chances.

It was said that United were over run in that particular game, which is untrue.

I wasn't having a go at Arsenal Openroad, considering there injuries they deserved the win, although most of it was Nevilles fault. :pac:

I know and utd certainly were not over run, the stats show you had one more shot on target compared to Arsenal , 6 to 5 but that doesn't equate to dominated imo

DM_7

Boggles wrote: »

I'm delighted with Carrick in midfield, since he joined the club in 2006 he has yet not to win a league title. Scholes has been hit and miss this season, but excellent in the previous two. Fletcher is a goalith in the midfield, truely outstanding when asked to perform in the big matches. Giggs has been asked to play a central role this season, he didn't deserve player of the year, but he did deserve to be nominated. Anderson is still young, has great potential and has shown he can be fantastic, jury is still out on him thou. By all accounts Hargreaves operation has been a success, add him to that mix next season, with hopefully a new signing, Central/Left midfielder.

You are right about all the players there.

For me United need to replace giggs and scholes. Nani's failure to develop this season was a big loss as if left rooney marooned on the left. I think united need a left sided player more than any other position. Anderson will develop into a very good player and it was only his 2nd season. Two Champions league finals at his age is pretty good going.

Boggles

OPENROAD wrote: »

I know and utd certainly were not over run, the stats show you had one more shot on target compared to Arsenal , 6 to 5 but that doesn't equate to dominated imo

I was illustrating poor finishing, in fact that match which I have watched since could have been 2-2 after 10 minutes.

SlickRic

Don't care (just want the game to be a cracker)

Boggles wrote: »

The 4 games you keep mentioning are the Chelsea, Sunderland, Villa and Blackbun game.

1 draw, 3 wins.

the fact you won, does not disprove my point though.

that's a testament to how well the rest of the team played from what i've seen.

u can have areas in your team that aren't as good as other areas and still get results; believe me, i know. Liverpool have been deficient in wide areas often enough, but still got results.

my argument is that your attack and your, at times, watertight defence has masked what i reckon is a midfield that's not quite at the free-flowing, steamrolling standard we're used to. your midfield are mainly protectors, which isn't necessarily a big criticism; it just takes away from other parts of your game.

not that it matters definitively at all, but it does seem i'm not alone in thinking these things, and that includes utd fans on these boards.

i ain't just bashing for the hell of it!

Boggles

DM-ICE wrote: »

You are right about all the players there.

For me United need to replace giggs and scholes. Nani's failure to develop this season was a big loss as if left rooney marooned on the left. I think united need a left sided player more than any other position. Anderson will develop into a very good player and it was only his 2nd season. Two Champions league finals at his age is pretty good going.

Ferguson needs to grab a hold of Anderson, I believe we won't have him for preseason again because of international commitments, which is a bummer.

Anderson for me still seems immature, which is what you would expect from someone of his age really.

He does need to knuckle down though and realise his potentional, and FFS learn bloody English. :pac:

Nalz

Manchester United (Barcelona fan)

OPENROAD wrote: »

United doinated you sure about that

United were by far the better team in that match,

but no way did they dominate in the 4-1 defeat to Liverpool as was said below

CoachBoone

I would agree with the view that our midfield has been lightweight this year.

That said, Hargreaves coming back is massive and Ando can still make it.

OPENROAD

Barcelona (Barcelona fan)

Trilla wrote: »

United were by far the better team in that match,

Don't agree.

Nalz

Manchester United (Barcelona fan)

OPENROAD wrote: »

Don't agree.

coolbeans

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

the fact you won, does not disprove my point though.
that's a testament to how well the rest of the team played from what i've seen.

What your essentially saying now is the United midfield is not up to it attack wise. Lets look at another game you keep focusing on.

Man United 3-2 Aston Villa

Our midfield that day was Carrick and Giggs, Carrick setup one, Giggs setup the other 2, all though Ronaldos he just rolled the ball to him for a free kick, excellent play and pass for Macheda for the winner.

I can sit all night and pick apart what your saying but I couldn't be arsed to be honest.

SlickRic

Don't care (just want the game to be a cracker)

OPENROAD wrote: »

Don't agree.

to be fair, i remember watching that game and wondering how the hell utd lost it.

the didn't dominate, but they created some unreal chances as far as i recall.

Nalz

Manchester United (Barcelona fan)

FA cup semi finalists, league cup winners, world club cup winners, Premier League winners, Champions League runners up

SlickRic

Don't care (just want the game to be a cracker)

Boggles wrote: »

I can sit all night and pick apart what your saying but I couldn't be arsed to be honest.

and i couldn't be arsed watching you pick holes either; which is essentially all you're doing - picking small holes in the argument to make out i'm talking cr*p when you know i'm not.

you know what i'm generally saying; and for me, if your midfield stays as it is, it's one part of the field that i for one would not be worried about facing.

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

you know what i'm generally saying; and for me, if your midfield stays as it is, it's one part of the field that i for one would not be worried about facing.

You brought up 4 matches where you said United were overun and blamed the midfield for it, Apart from the Chelsea match which I conceeded, I showed you they weren't.

It's actually very seldom this season that the midfield was over run.

A man and his dog knows United need a left/Central midfielder, I have been saying it for 18 months so tis no secret really. United have a top midfield, Add Hargreaves and a possibly new signing and there is nothing to worry about.

SlickRic

Don't care (just want the game to be a cracker)

Boggles wrote: »

You brought up 4 matches where you said United were overun and blamed the midfield for it, Apart from the Chelsea match which I conceeded, I showed you they weren't.

i never said they were 'overun'; i said they struggled and/or they didn't dominate like they normally would.

and you only disproved the sunderland one as being one where you actually dominated; not a whole lot of penetration from what i remember, but dominant all the same i'll concede.

the villa won you argued from the point of view that carrick had an important role in the goals. this does not mean he helped control the game; it just means he got an assist or 2.

pull out all the shot stats you want, but you haven't dominated teams like you have in the past; that's my point. you've eeked your way through a lot of games; and you've struggled against the top teams more than in the recent past.

others have said the same.

further proof that i might not be talking through my hoop.

as you say, get a top class left/central midfielder and you're well on your way to rectifying it.

johnnyc

united main weakness is the midfield..carrick is no xavi or innesta (apologies about the spelling) along with anderson. What player would i get kaka or fabergas would be one (and sell ronaldo) buy essien another (doubt chelsea would sell him to united) and ribery...

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

pull out all the shot stats you want, but you haven't dominated teams like you have in the past; that's my point. you've eeked your way through a lot of games; and you've struggled against the top teams more than in the recent past.

The only teams United have struggled against this season are Liverpool away and in the second half against Chelsea at the bridge.

gimmick

Manchester United (Neutral)

I am noticing a bit of a trend emerging, both here and in the newspapers (generally speaking).

People are harping on that Man United just did not show, and while giving credit to Barcelona, I am noticing that they seem to reckon that had Man U showed up, they would have won.

Fact is, Barcelona made Man U not show up. They have been doing this to teams all season long. The 2-6 victory over Real was due to Real not showing either, and them having a pourous defense on the night. Ditto the 4-0s over Bayern, Sevilla and Valencia.

Barcelona knocked Man United out of their stride the other night after their initail brightness. Barca took hold of the game and Man U did not know how to cope with the constant tacking and crisp passing of Barcelona.

It was an incredible display of football, but an incredible team.

monkey9

NEWSFLASH:

U.E.F.A. are to fine Manchester United over £500,000, for allowing their spectators on to the field of play during last Wednesdays U.E.F.A. Champions League Final.


Anderson, Ryan Giggs & Michael Carrick are set to appeal.

monkey9

enviro wrote: »

At least they were on the field for the final.

Allegedly

Mr Alan

Don't care (just want the game to be a cracker)

Boggles wrote: »

The only teams United have struggled against this season are Liverpool away and in the second half against Chelsea at the bridge.

really?

everyone else was a walk in the park?

MisterAnarchy

Barcelona (Neutral)

Boggles wrote: »

The only teams United have struggled against this season are Liverpool away and in the second half against Chelsea at the bridge.

Take off those red rose tinted glasses.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

really?

everyone else was a walk in the park?

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Take off those red rose tinted glasses.

That's not what I ment Master Alan, but I suspect you kow that.

I don't wear spectacles.

I'm still waiting to hear which so called matches United were over run in?

Mr Alan

Don't care (just want the game to be a cracker)

not sure about "over-run" as i'm entering this conversation late...but i think it would be fair to say Utd struggled against Villa,Sunderland,Newcastle,Fulham,Liverpool,Wigan,Chelsea,Arsenal off the top of my head.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

not sure about 2over-run" as i'm entering this conversation late...but i think it would be fair to say Utd were unable to dominate against Villa,Sunderland,Newcastle,Fulham,Liverpool,Wigan,Chelsea,Arsenal off the top of my head.

Read back Alan.

internelligent

Boggles wrote: »

That's not what I ment Master Alan, but I suspect you kow that.

I don't wear spectacles.

I'm still waiting to hear which so called matches United were over run in?

Thought wigan gave you a good game in OT. For the Fulham match in CC they destroyed you in the first half. You must admit that you struggled in the 4-1 loss to Liverpool too.
Aston Villa caused you problems too. And it's ridiculous when you state an assist for Macheda's goal to highlight the superiority Utd had in midfield. It was hardly put on a plate for him and it reeks of desperation to win an argument.
I agree with Slickric 100%

Once you get Hargreaves back it'll make a world of difference for Utd. You still need another solid midfielder in there with him.

Boggles

internelligent wrote: »

And it's ridiculous when you state an assist for Macheda's goal to highlight the superiority Utd had in midfield. It was hardly put on a plate for him and it reeks of desperation to win an argument.
I agree with Slickric 100%

I didn't highlight the assist to underline Uniteds superiority in midfield, the Villa game was selected as an example of Uniteds midfield offering nothing in attack, I pointed out that Giggs and Carrick who played centrally were involved in all 3 goals. But you argree with whoever you want to, doesn't bother me in the least. :rolleyes:

JPA

internelligent wrote: »

Thought wigan gave you a good game in OT. For the Fulham match in CC they destroyed you in the first half. You must admit that you struggled in the 4-1 loss to Liverpool too.
Aston Villa caused you problems too. And it's ridiculous when you state an assist for Macheda's goal to highlight the superiority Utd had in midfield. It was hardly put on a plate for him and it reeks of desperation to win an argument.
I agree with Slickric 100%

Once you get Hargreaves back it'll make a world of difference for Utd. You still need another solid midfielder in there with him.

I agree but I think Hargreaves and Carrick together are a strong duo. Pity they can't meld together to form the perfect defensive midfielder. Then perhaps Anderson can be the forward running midfielder in a 3 man midfield but I think it's fair to say he could be improved upon.

internelligent

Boggles wrote: »

I didn't highlight the assist to underline Uniteds superiority in midfield, the Villa game was selected as an example of Uniteds midfield offering nothing in attack, I pointed out that Giggs and Carrick who played centrally were involved in all 3 goals.But you argree with whoever you want to, doesn't bother me in the least. :rolleyes:

Appreciate that. Thought I'd overstepped the mark but now with your approval I can sleep now. When you say it doesn't bother you in the least, and THEN use the :rolleyes: does that mean it does annoy you or why did you use it? Just something I've noticed about your posts at times boggles. Looking down on other peoples views and disproving them with the power of words emoticons. Well, it doesn't gain alot of respect. Doesn't bother me though:rolleyes:

Edit:Don't mean to de-rail this thread, apologies.

Boggles

internelligent wrote: »

Appreciate that. Thought I'd overstepped the mark but now with your approval I can sleep now. When you say it doesn't bother you in the least, and THEN use the :rolleyes: does that mean it does annoy you or why did you use it? Just something I've noticed about your posts at times boggles. Looking down on other peoples views and disproving them with the power of words emoticons. Well, it doesn't gain alot of respect. Doesn't bother me though:rolleyes:

Edit:Don't mean to de-rail this thread, apologies.

Please do.

Slash/ED

gimmick wrote: »

I am noticing a bit of a trend emerging, both here and in the newspapers (generally speaking).

People are harping on that Man United just did not show, and while giving credit to Barcelona, I am noticing that they seem to reckon that had Man U showed up, they would have won.

Fact is, Barcelona made Man U not show up. They have been doing this to teams all season long. The 2-6 victory over Real was due to Real not showing either, and them having a pourous defense on the night. Ditto the 4-0s over Bayern, Sevilla and Valencia.

Barcelona knocked Man United out of their stride the other night after their initail brightness. Barca took hold of the game and Man U did not know how to cope with the constant tacking and crisp passing of Barcelona.

It was an incredible display of football, but an incredible team.

Exactly, the arrogance from people to assume Man U could have beaten Barca on that night had they 'shown up' is breathtaking given the display and how well Barca played on the night. They did show up, they were just outclassed by a superior team.

Warper

Don't care (just want the game to be a cracker)

One team that also over-ran them was Porto at Old Trafford. Porto created a host of chances and practically gave Utd their first goal.

MisterAnarchy

Barcelona (Neutral)

Judging by the predictions on the poll alot of people got carried away with the hype over United this season.
Alot of fans seem to confine themselves to the EPL and only watch foreign teams in the Champions League.

I'm a Utd fan but I am also a fan of football and Barca were the one team I was dreading to play in the final.
I've seen alot of their matches this season and they have been an absolute joy to watch,total football,they play the game the way its meant to be played.

Barca did their homework very well on that Utd team.
They adapted their style for the final ,adding more steel and a higher workrate,something they have learnt from the British teams.
They did play well but Utd were poor on the night,their tactics were all wrong and the individual performances of most of the players were sub par.
Poor first touch,poor passing,bad marking,poor reading of the game.
Obviously Barca pressurised them into making mistakes but I still expect players to be able to pass the ball 10 yards without making a balls of it and also to control simple balls to feet .

That Barca team is the best footballing side I have seen in years.

Paul Tergat

JPA wrote: »

Pity they can't meld together to form the perfect defensive midfielder.

I think you are vastly underrating Hargreaves' ability here. He's technically very very good which is something people don't pick up on as they just think of him as a defensive midfielder. As well as being great at the tackling and having a great engine he's a very good passer of the ball and he showed when he played a couple of games on the right side of midfield that he can cross and beat a player too. Also, his speed is something underrated too. IF (BIG IF) we can get him fit, which im hoping the op which resulted in him missing this whole season will help with, then he will be a massive player for us next season.

SlickRic

Don't care (just want the game to be a cracker)

Boggles wrote: »

I'm still waiting to hear which so called matches United were over run in?

SlickRic wrote: »

i never said they were 'overun'; i said they struggled and/or they didn't dominate like they normally would.

:rolleyes:

you really need to read what i've said, and not what you've assumed i said.

so you'll be waiting a long time for an answer.

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

:rolleyes:

you really need to read what i've said, and not what you've assumed i said.

so you'll be waiting a long time for an answer.

Semantics.

SlickRic

Don't care (just want the game to be a cracker)

Boggles wrote: »

Semantics.

no.

you just reading into things, assuming i'm having a go.

you'd swear you hadn't just won the league and had something to be really defensive about.

other utd fans don't have a problem identifying this slight deficiency and discussing it.

UnitedIrishman

Manchester United (Barcelona fan)

To be fair, we're not the Harlem Globetrotters. In any game of football, the best teams around are still going to struggle in around 10% of the games. Against Villa, Fulham, Liverpool, Wigan and Porto - they all took the game to us and we looked shaky. We still won - bar the Pool game.

No matter how good a team you are, unless you are a very special side such as Forest in the 70's or Arsenal a few years back, there are always goingto be blips. The reason Untied are the best around is because when these blips occur, we still win.

Theresalwaysone

p_larkin99 wrote: »

I think you are vastly underrating Hargreaves' ability here. He's technically very very good which is something people don't pick up on as they just think of him as a defensive midfielder. As well as being great at the tackling and having a great engine he's a very good passer of the ball and he showed when he played a couple of games on the right side of midfield that he can cross and beat a player too. Also, his speed is something underrated too. IF (BIG IF) we can get him fit, which im hoping the op which resulted in him missing this whole season will help with, then he will be a massive player for us next season.

Good post. He is allegedly the fastest player at United bar Ronaldo. I cannot remember where I got that nugget from though. Must find a source.

He is also a very good free kick taker.