Spirit of Ireland - A bright spark in today's economic gloom?

Carawaystick

Pat, are you not missing a factor for density in your equations about 2 pages back? seawater being denser than freshwater and all....

jinghong

patgill wrote: »

Hoof Hearted

The basic formula for determining the energy output (P) from a hydro plant is P = 9.81 x Q x H (kW). Q is the flow rate in cubic metres per sec, H is the head (distance the water drops before it spins the turbines) in metres, the 9.81 figure is the multiplication due to gravity. However that is a theoretical figure as according to the laws of thermodynamics, we will lose energy in any energy conversion, so we must allow for this when calculating our output.

As an example if we allow a water flow of 4m3/sec to drop through a head of 10m the calculation will be 9.81X4x10 = 392kw.

If we double the head to 20m the calculation will run 9.81X4X20 = 785kw

So in theory we will double the electricity output by doubling the head, but we have not yet done our conversion discount as demanded by thermodynamics and this where it gets tricky. A modern Francis turbine has an efficiency of up to 95% in converting the potential energy in the water flow into electricity, but the additional problem in a pumped hydro arrangement is that we must also pump the water uphill first, so we in effect have two energy conversions and you correctly identified the other problem, the friction and dynamic effects in the penstock and these can be considerable. So there is a trade off between head height and efficiency.

The S of I design manages a through efficiency of between 80% and 85%, depending on site. If you can locate a valley that might give a head height of 200m with a not too long penstock requirement, we should talk.

The other matter is the amount of water flow required in order to generate 1GW of electricity, in the order of 1000 cubic metres per sec.

In conclusion there would be a lot of mathamatics required to validate your two reservoir idea, but if the maths worked out !!!!

Pat
Your figures look optimistic
I've worked in pumps and the highest efficiency multistages were in the high 70's (hydraulic). You then have electrical losses on the pumps. Then you have friction losses on the piping for the way up. I'm not sure what the efficiency of the Francis is when working in pump mode, but I doubt it is anything as high as turbine mode. I'd be surprised if you could exceed a combined efficiency of 75% from pumping

Then as you say you have turbine, penstock and electrical losses on the way down. Say this amounted to 80% efficiency, your total efficiency would be .8*.75 = 60%

Also leave the thermodynamics out, we're talking purely mechanical and electrical efficiency here

I know you are going to say this is site based, but tell me you can get better than that even with the most optimum site

patgill

Hoof Hearted wrote: »

I would guess that because of the difference between our baseload (middle of the night usage) versus our peak usage, that even without wind there would be a substantial reduction in the variation of cost of our electricity. Even during calm periods the use of cheaper base load stations only would save us the cost of building newer stations designed for peak usage. Along with the construction of more interconnectors with the UK and Europe, the project may be feasible on that basis alone, adding wind into the equation is where it really gives a return on the investment. And Europe will need storage of power for their wind generation too. So I hope my quick back of the envelope calculations show this to be true.

I will be posting soon on the advantages of the concept of a Natural Energy Power Station, particularly how it can share its resources to enable the efficiency of the entire energy system to inprove.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Pat, are you not missing a factor for density in your equations about 2 pages back? seawater being denser than freshwater and all....

Strictly true and the denser seawater will have a little more kinetic energy, if you were in a mathamathical frame of mind you could reverse engineer the figure I gave for the water flows needed to generate 1GW

jinghong wrote: »

Pat
Your figures look optimistic
I've worked in pumps and the highest efficiency multistages were in the high 70's (hydraulic). You then have electrical losses on the pumps. Then you have friction losses on the piping for the way up. I'm not sure what the efficiency of the Francis is when working in pump mode, but I doubt it is anything as high as turbine mode. I'd be surprised if you could exceed a combined efficiency of 75% from pumping

Then as you say you have turbine, penstock and electrical losses on the way down. Say this amounted to 80% efficiency, your total efficiency would be .8*.75 = 60%

Also leave the thermodynamics out, we're talking purely mechanical and electrical efficiency here

I know you are going to say this is site based, but tell me you can get better than that even with the most optimum site

Now we are beginning to get to the concept of a Natural Energy Power Station.

Turlough Hill, almost forty years old now. From a DECNR document

This is by far the most common form of
storage and is used at Turlough Hill. The construction price
varies by local geography. The energy efficiency is 70‐85%
and the cost is 0.1‐1.4¢/kWh.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/996E85FC-A8AA-4E76-87AD-EB1647B71ED1/0/ElectricalEnergyStorage.pdf

The right site is vital to the ebb and flow (sorry) of the efficiency calculations.

jinghong

I'd like to see your own estimates. I don't trust the ramblings of a UCD engineering student (I was one myself many years back!).

Also you should include the embedded energy in construction (of the grid, dam, canals, penstock etc) and 'amortize' it over the useful lifetime of the project. This then should be included in the annual energy inputs, which will give a better idea or real efficiency

I want to believe in this project, but I need to be convinced on the figures

dowlingm

Does rainfall add a substantial amount of "free" energy when falling on the dam area, given the likely location of the dams on the Atlantic coast, or is it trivial?

ei.sdraob

dowlingm wrote: »

Does rainfall add a substantial amount of "free" energy when falling on the dam area, given the likely location of the dams on the Atlantic coast, or is it trivial?

lets say 2000mm a year (about right for west coast) then multiply that by the surface area of the reservoir?

patgill

jinghong wrote: »

I'd like to see your own estimates. I don't trust the ramblings of a UCD engineering student (I was one myself many years back!).

Also you should include the embedded energy in construction (of the grid, dam, canals, penstock etc) and 'amortize' it over the useful lifetime of the project. This then should be included in the annual energy inputs, which will give a better idea or real efficiency

I want to believe in this project, but I need to be convinced on the figures

jinghong

That particular student is actually one of Ireland's brighter prospects, I agree re the embedded energy costs, but we must begin to attach the embedded energy calculation into analysis of much more of our endevours.

More on this later, but the design life of our HSR is greater than a century, agreed that the wind turbines will not last that long, but neither will an Open Cycle Gas Turbine, along with its fuel logistics.

dowlingm wrote: »

Does rainfall add a substantial amount of "free" energy when falling on the dam area, given the likely location of the dams on the Atlantic coast, or is it trivial?

ei.sdraob wrote: »

lets say 2000mm a year (about right for west coast) then multiply that by the surface area of the reservoir?

This is another one of Gods gifts to Ireland, in many areas of the world, pumped storage must deal with evaporation as a real cost, in our climate we get an opposite effect, rain.

dowlingm

Reportage fail
http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/kfcwkfausncw/rss2/

the Irish Wind Energy Association (IWEA) revealed that April 5 last smashed the record for the amount of energy from turbines, with 1,120 MW of electricity being generated, enough to power 672,000 homes.

The largest electricity generating plant in the country is the coal burning ESB facility at Moneypoint in Co Clare, which can generate 850MW of electricity for the national grid.

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/
Check out the following day and the 8th.

Without some kind of storage, wind is likely to be disruptive rather than helpful to grid management. I'm not saying SoI is it, but we'd better find something credible and cost-effective over the long term. I have written to the Examiner to chide them for simply reprinting the IWEA's press release rather than doing a bit of checking and asking some questions.

patgill

dowlingm

You have called it correctly, it is a fact though that the Irish media are to a large extent technically illiterate. Perhaps also there is the possibility of another influence at play here.

Some weeks ago, on the Frontline energy programme, I made a brief comment towards the end of the programme, Minister Ryan had been under pressure from Pat Kenny and Eddie Hobbs on his reluctance to wholeheartedly endorse Spirit of Ireland, and so I made the comment that as the Minister was the sole shareholder of the semi state energy companies, in many ways his hands were tied.

There are two articles in the present edition of Business and Finance, the first is a story on S of I, in which this very theme is discussed and the second article concerns the electricity market changes that are now in train from the regulator.

Last friday, there was a conference organised by the Limerick Clare Energy Agency held in Ennis. Most of the countries stakeholders were there and all presented their case. However it is notable that the only organisation that would not even countenance a change to the present wind regime was the Irish Wind Energy Association, scroll down along their home page and you will see that they mainly represent our own semi states, the ESB is represented by Hibernia Wind Power.


- IWEA is the national association for the wind industry in Ireland

And while I am here

One of the planks on which S of I has been built on is ownership by the people, and I deliberately say people rather than the state. The reasons are as follows and have nothing to do with capitalism or socialism.

The world is entering a new era, where security of energy supply will be the primary determinant of economic activity, this will mean that as a country we must begin to do things a little differently and at the start of this process people must feel involved and intrinsic to the process. But where are the people going to get the billions required to take this ownership.

Late last week there was a meeting between Padraig Howard, myself and a representative of a very prominent and reputable investment team and the purpose of this meeting was to begin the process of bringing into being an SSIA type of scheme, to which we have given the working title of the green bond project.

The purpose of this scheme will be to save in order to invest in our own energy future, there are of course one or two nice twists to this saving scheme which will encourage take up, but more about the details later.

S of I will not be the only major beneficiary of this fund, there is a lot of new innovation comong down the tracks, I get excited at least once a week by an Irish company or research team.

The investments of this new fund will be decided by a team of engineers, scientists and experienced project managers and should ideally have input from the policy makers in government.

However it is inspired by the words of the Scottish islander, who was asked did all of the wind turbines that surround his house keep him awake at night ? He replied, they do indeed, sometimes I count the money they earn for me three or four times, you see it was a community owned windfarm and that makes a big difference.

Sponge Bob

patgill wrote: »

You have called it correctly, it is a fact though that the Irish media are to a large extent technically illiterate. Perhaps also there is the possibility of another influence at play here.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". Sums up the Irish media and anything complicated they try to get their headlets around.

ciaran75

Hi Pat,

Any update for us? been very quiet last while.

Cheers,

patgill

Ciaran

I have been dealing with a health problem recently.

The work is progressing, particularly with regard to community co op's

For some time now we have been promoting the idea of community owned energy Co Op's as a way to create sustainable employment in this country, energy is so intrinsic to our way of life and standard of living that it is one of the few very low risk businesses left in the world.

So what do we mean by community energy co op's ?



Energy is a vital part of our lives, much more we realise. It might surprise you to know that perhaps 40% of everthing you spend is actually spent on energy. Electricity, petrol, and heating bills are only the beginning of your energy spend, 20% of your food and clothing bills for example are made up of the energy cost of those products. Energy is getting more expensive as we pass through peak oil, while cheaply accessible oil and gas reserves begin to run down.



No doubt you will have heard or read, that Ireland has truly enormous renewable energy reserves. Wind and wave energy you probably already know about from companies such as Airtricity, or our semi state energy companies ESB, Bord Gais, and Bord na Mona. Who are all very active in wind farming in Ireland. However, there are other forms of renewable energy available to us in Ireland, for example, our ancestors were using our rivers and tidal pools to power their civilisations and help make the products of their time, for at least the last two thousand years. In many cases the basic civil engineering is still there waiting for an enterprising community to bring it back to valuable energy production.



What makes renewable energy relevant to every community in Ireland is the fact that they can all opt to become involved in this endevour. Be they urban or rural makes not the slightest difference, because whilst a prime wind harvesting community along the western seaboard, may need the help of urban energy co op partners to finance the western windfarm. The urban co op has a huge opportunity to develop an energy efficiency business or technology, and bring much needed employment to members of their own community.

And, we haven't even mentioned areas such as geothermal or biofuels.



We have come to believe over the last century or so, that energy production is for big companies to be involved in, and this is true when we speak about energy derived from fossil fuels. However, renewable energy is different, it happens within our communities rather than behind the perimeter fence of a conventional power station.

But if this is such a brilliant idea, why has it not been done before, well it has, and very successfully in countries as diverse as Japan, Canada, Denmark and the United States. Closer to home, there are quite few community energy Co op's in the UK particularly in Scotland.



The basic idea of a community energy Co op is for the people of a local area, or a local organisation, to come together and decide to become involved in the ownership of a renewable energy project. By doing so, such communities can unlock a revenue stream that can be used for the benefit of the community, money can be invested in local schools, roads, local projects infrastructure, or used to help create job's for local people limited only by their imagination.


Presently, there are many types of renewable energy technologies available, ranging from wind to wave, tidal, hydro, solar, bio etc.

However, the most technically advanced proven technology which suits the Irish environment is either wind or hydro, or, a combination of both. In the future it is envisaged that tidal and wave will be playing a significant role in renewable energy supplies, however the technology is still in its infancy, whereas wind / hydro is an "off the shelf" solution and is investor ready now.


A word of warning though, there are many vested interests in the field of renewables. Currently there are corporate entities and some private individuals buying up land rights and options from local farmers and landowners, with the promise of financial gain should the relevant lands be subject to future development for renewable energy. There is a real danger to those same landowners that should planning be subsequently granted, the options or rights may then be sold on to a much larger player bringing substantial rewards for the owner of such rights / options.

The simple rule here is that all Farmers, landowners, or commonage holders should never sign anything regardless of how innocent it may appear, without seeking legal advice in the first instance. This is the best way to protect the rights of rural communities and ensures that they benefit first from any initiatives presented by third parties.


So how should communities proceed in order that they may extract the most benefit from any potential renewable energy initiatives ? Perhaps the best option is to establish a Co op together with their neighbours and commonage holders. This is an easy step and advice can be had from the Irish Co Op Society who are the governing body in Ireland. The cost is negligible, and it would simplify matters such as legal advice, as all members would benefit from a single consultation rather than multiple of individuals seeking the same advice. It also serves as a conduit for investment, it ensures an open and up front platform for its members, and above all, it can protect members interests from exploitation by predatory and selfish third parties.

One of the first of these new community Co Op's is the Atlantic Coast Co Op and their website went live today.

Atlantic Coast Co-Operative Ltd

Best of Luck to all

Sponge Bob

patgill wrote: »

A word of warning though, there are many vested interests in the field of renewables. Currently there are corporate entities and some private individuals buying up land rights and options from local farmers and landowners, with the promise of financial gain should the relevant lands be subject to future development for renewable energy. There is a real danger to those same landowners that should planning be subsequently granted, the options or rights may then be sold on to a much larger player bringing substantial rewards for the owner of such rights / options.

This is where the law on commonage needs to be revised drastically so that a majority of somewhere between 60% and 75% ( opinions differ) can prevail against a blocking option or interest, sometimes as little as 2% of a commonage and 'owned' by one of these corporates.

Ugool

Lands acquired by the state in the '50s & '60s from my family, and my neighbours, by compulsory purchase order, or under threat of CPO, under the Turf Acts for the purpose of peat extraction to fuel the Bellacorick power station is now exhausted and the power station shut.

In the meantime lands which were left us are now designated & protected under EU law as Natura2000 sites - Special Areas of Conservation/Special Protected Areas. The lands acquired by the state were destroyed from an environmental view point, by the industrial production of peat and are not protected under EU law.

This has led to a very unjust situation where we are unable to apply for planning permission for wind turbines on our lands as they are protected, but the state can put up wind farms on these lands acquired from my family and my neighbours. Access to our natural resource, Wind, has been taken from us in a place where that resource is truly world class. :eek:

Need I remind you that North West Mayo has been polarized and it's community divided due to the scandalous mismanagement by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources of that other natural resource – the Corrib Gas field. Many argue that the Departments handling of yet another natural resource, those parts of the electromagnetic spectrum licensed for use by mobile phone companies, has been equally disastrous. :mad:

We seek for a fair resolution of this issue: Allow us to buy back the lands acquired from our families at the price paid to us by the state compounded by the rate of inflation since the date of acquisition.

Lands acquired by Northern Ireland Electricity in the 1960s at Camlough, Armagh, for the purpose of construction of a power station there were offered back. The project was cancelled and according to the Northern Ireland Minister in 2002, NIE were “offering the lands back to their original owners or their successors in title.”

We need something similar to happen here. :P

Sponge Bob

Ugool wrote: »

Lands acquired by the state in the '50s & '60s from my family, and my neighbours, by compulsory purchase order, or under threat of CPO, under the Turf Acts for the purpose of peat extraction to fuel the Bellacorick power station is now exhausted and the power station shut.

I take it you demanded the lands back, in writing, when the turf was exhausted because if you didn't then you are in a spot of bother. ) Of course that will not stop a lawyer from taking the case, no sirree

Ugool

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I take it you demanded the lands back, in writing, when the turf was exhausted because if you didn't then you are in a spot of bother. ) Of course that will not stop a lawyer from taking the case, no sirree

No we didn't. Bord na Mona got planning on these lands for 180 turbines 7 years ago and haven't built one yet. If they did we might have got employment from them. Six other application on lands adjoining this site were refused on the grounds of (1) Visual impact (2) Proximity to SAC (Special Areas of Conservation). Its now time for them to sh.. or leave the pot.

BluntGuy

Ugool wrote: »

No we didn't. Bord na Mona got planning on these lands for 180 turbines 7 years ago and haven't built one yet. If they did we might have got employment from them. Six other application on lands adjoining this site were refused on the grounds of (1) Visual impact (2) Proximity to SAC (Special Areas of Conservation). Its now time for them to sh.. or leave the pot.

What were the conditions of the planning permission? Did they have to begin construction within 5 or 10 years, for example?

Ugool

BluntGuy wrote: »

What were the conditions of the planning permission? Did they have to begin construction within 5 or 10 years, for example?

They are one of the few that got a 10 year starting date, but to hang onto your permission you only need to make a start. They have planning permission since 2003. Bord na Mona, Insight Consultants announce 300 new jobs in July'09 to get us all excited. http://www.bnm.ie/corporate/index.jsp?&1nID=93&nID=96&aID=797. They employ 3 there at the moment.

http://www.mayococo.ie/PlanSearch/mcc4/PlanningViewer/displayafile.asp?la=1&filenum=PL012542&subfilenum=Submit

Sponge Bob

You did not 'maintain' your claim over the land then.

I am sure that some lawyer will charge you handsomely for suing Bord na M but I am sceptical as to the merits of your case unless you maintained your claim over the land.....particularly when the bog was exhausted for its narrow Turf Act purpose around 1995-2003 or so.

It will cost all of you a lot of money, if it was a commonage in 1955 and were one shareholder in the commonage on the ball with a claim when the Turf was exhausted then you may all have a case. If not the statute of limitations may have closed the trap or may be about to close the trap meaning you must move now.

The RIGHT to litigate for the RIGHT to claim it back will probably cost all of you UP TO €100k in legal fees. If the shareholders in the old commonage will not invest pro rata in that case then you are already on a sticky wicket there are you not ???? You hardly expect Eamon Ryan, sole owner of Bord na M to care about it do you ??

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

You hardly expect Eamon Ryan, sole owner of Bord na M to care about it do you ??

I doubt he will, and, without wishing to be mean, I don't either. Back on topic folks...

BTW, @ Ugool: you might get some good advice here. This forum isn't really for your issue.

Einhard

lil copy & paste....

Hey all,
Haven't posted in this forum yet, but was wondering has anyone any news on the progress of the Spirit of Ireland project?

Ugool

Einhard wrote: »

lil copy & paste....

Einhard, from my limited knowledge of Spirit of Ireland I see several projects emerging. For example take a look at these:

http://www.organicpower.ie/pdf/news/Clare Champion_Energy_Project_250610.pdf
http://www.organicpower.ie/phes.php
http://www.organicpower.ie/pdf/glinsk/OP18_PHES Preplanning 15 May 2010web version.pdf
http://www.clareherald.com/regional/2553-green-light-for-200m-co-clare-wind-farm.html

DoItNow

Hi einhard,
S of I had meetings with locals in Kilcar, Co. Donegal earlier this year re one of their potential sites nearby. Not much going on apart from that (at least not visible on the web ). I'm hoping that just means they are keeping quiet until they have more solid info/ agreement for some or all of the sites... Looks like Organic Power are forging ahead with plans for a conventional pumped hydro station (vs. using natural valleys) , from looking at links on the previous post.

http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/donegalnews/Open-mind-approach-to-massive.6315646.jp

Jim Martin

The Mt. Callan application has now gone to appeal:

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/237524.htm

Jim Martin

In a recent submission to the Mt. Callan planning application to Clare Co. Co. (Planning File Ref. No. 109), the DEH&LG stated that "it is to be noted that recent research indicates that the foraging activity of hen harriers can be adversely affected at a distance of as much as 250m from individual wind turbines". I feel that this is a very important point which has repercussions for any wind farm applications in areas where Hen Harriers nest & forage."

Another recent application for a wind farm near Mt. Callan, Coore/Shanaway (Clare Co. Co. Planning File Ref. No. 10720) has been thrown back at the applicants because of insufficient/inadequate provision of data. Hardly an auspicious beginning!

http://www.clarecoco.ie/planning/planning-applications/search-planning-applications/FileRefDetails.aspx?file_number=10720&LASiteID=0

Dan Jaman

The Attack of the Killer NIMBYs has begun.
It will be a long and bloody battle unless these stupid sods are brought to heel.

Jim Martin

Dan Jaman wrote: »

The Attack of the Killer NIMBYs has begun.
It will be a long and bloody battle unless these stupid bastards are brought to heel.

Moderator please?

Sponge Bob

A person surnamed Martin has objected to the Clare Windfarm. On the other hand putative nimbyism within Clare and appropos Clare has no relevance to this particular thread any more than certain Mayo bogs do ....that issue arose earlier.

KevR

Jim Martin wrote: »

In a recent submission to the Mt. Callan planning application to Clare Co. Co. (Planning File Ref. No. 109), the DEH&LG stated that "it is to be noted that recent research indicates that the foraging activity of hen harriers can be adversely affected at a distance of as much as 250m from individual wind turbines". I feel that this is a very important point which has repercussions for any wind farm applications in areas where Hen Harriers nest & forage."

Another recent application for a wind farm near Mt. Callan, Coore/Shanaway (Clare Co. Co. Planning File Ref. No. 10720) has been thrown back at the applicants because of insufficient/inadequate provision of data. Hardly an auspicious beginning!

http://www.clarecoco.ie/planning/planning-applications/search-planning-applications/FileRefDetails.aspx?file_number=10720&LASiteID=0

Attach a simple device to the turbines which would emit an extremely high pitched noise that animals would find uncomfortable and humans wouldn't be able to hear??

Jim Martin

KevR wrote: »

Attach a simple device to the turbines which would emit an extremely high pitched noise that animals would find uncomfortable and humans wouldn't be able to hear??

Why are humans so arrogant that they seem to think they have more right to inhabit this planet than other creatures? Why force them to move to what may be inaccesible habitats owing to human interference with & obliteration because of disturbance & developments all over? This is a global problem! It has been proven that biodiversity is being effected globally at an alarming rate by human disturbance and who's to say that we are not creating our own doomsday by breaking down the very delicate balance of the natural world heirarchy by this disturbance? I think we are and so does David Attenborough who is much respected and seems to know what he is talking about!