Spirit of Ireland - A bright spark in today's economic gloom?

Sponge Bob

You forget that many of these birds relied on human activity for a living, eg the corncrake was OK with hand cut fields and thrived but was not adaptive enough to deal with mechanised hay cutting. Nor would it bugger off to the long grass that was never cut.

Now we spend nearly €4000 per bird preserving it not including research and NPWS time and money.

Jim Martin

Sponge Bob wrote: »

You forget that many of these birds relied on human activity for a living, eg the corncrake was OK with hand cut fields and thrived but was not adaptive enough to deal with mechanised hay cutting. Nor would it bugger off to the long grass that was never cut.

Now we spend nearly €4000 per bird preserving it not including research and NPWS time and money.

Are you seriously suggesting that many of these birds did not exist before there was human habitation of the earth? - I think not!

Sponge Bob

Jim Martin wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that many of these birds did not exist before there was human habitation of the earth? - I think not!

Not invariably, certain species thrived because of mans impact on earth.

The corncrake is a meadow bird, you don't seriously think it thrived when Ireland was covered in forest do you ???

Jim Martin

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Not invariably, certain species thrived because of mans impact on earth.

The corncrake is a meadow bird, you don't seriously think it thrived when Ireland was covered in forest do you ???

But it must have come from somewhere long before humans were around?

tharlear

. Jim

You make the mistake that thinking that the landscape and the creatures that inhabit that landscape are static.
Ireland has seen many changes over the last 400 years from a highly forested landscape to a mainly pastoral landscape. Birds and insects that like the "new natural" new landscape have thrived, new species have been introduced or arrived (grey squirrels, voles, magpies etc,etc). Some are considered pest. But trying to maintain thing static the way they are during your life time is not necessarily natural.
Taking a balance view of human needs and how we effect the landscape is required unless you thing burning coal is a better than wind, or maybe we could cut turf and burn it, but that also would effect the harriers normal hunting grounds.
S-Bobs point I think is that Corn crakes did very well in the 40s when Dev make all the farmers plant wheat, oats, and barley. Even without the effects of mechanisation and insecticides their number would have been reduced as farmers stopped growing cereal and hay and moved to silage. Cutting fields from the inside out was a simple thing that helped corn crakes. Installing radar on wind turbines has been shown to help bats, I’m sure a solution can be found to help the harriers as long as people are not luddites

Jim Martin

Jim Martin wrote: »

But it must have come from somewhere long before humans were around?

You still didn't answer my question!

luohaoran

Jim Martin wrote: »

You still didn't answer my question!

How long ago do you mean Jim?
When humans were still monkeys? Or when corncrakes were loosing their teeth?
Or are we talking about just before Adam and Eve showed up?

I think tharlear answered your question quite clearly. But to repeat it in different words...

The corncrakes came from somewhere else.
That is, some other natural habitat that was nearly as good as our cornfields of the 40's. They may well be still there. (or perhaps not, global warming being what it is)

We humans are a species just like any other. Our footprint, like the African elephants has a huge impact on all other surrounding species, particularly when our population gets too big.
The best we can do is "improve" how we go about our business, and to minimize our future negative impacts. Wind power is one of the better options available to us here in Ireland. We can always take them down when something better comes along. Provided , no one protests at removing them, as some adaptive species has made a home from the special environment they create. (largely human free)

Of course any change will require a certain readjustment, and some species won't be able to adapt. Such is life. But don't you think that taking everything into account, that is, looking at the bigger picture, will ultimately have the most positive affect to the largest number of species. And the bigger picture is clearly telling us that we should replace our limited resources with renewable ones.

You are right to raise concerns over hen harriers. But with your point made, and logic slapping you about the face, you perhaps ought to withdraw.
If indeed you are one and the same.

Jim Martin

luohaoran wrote: »

How long ago do you mean Jim?
When humans were still monkeys? Or when corncrakes were loosing their teeth?
Or are we talking about just before Adam and Eve showed up?

I think tharlear answered your question quite clearly. But to repeat it in different words...

The corncrakes came from somewhere else.
That is, some other natural habitat that was nearly as good as our cornfields of the 40's. They may well be still there. (or perhaps not, global warming being what it is)

We humans are a species just like any other. Our footprint, like the African elephants has a huge impact on all other surrounding species, particularly when our population gets too big.
The best we can do is "improve" how we go about our business, and to minimize our future negative impacts. Wind power is one of the better options available to us here in Ireland. We can always take them down when something better comes along. Provided , no one protests at removing them, as some adaptive species has made a home from the special environment they create. (largely human free)

Of course any change will require a certain readjustment, and some species won't be able to adapt. Such is life. But don't you think that taking everything into account, that is, looking at the bigger picture, will ultimately have the most positive affect to the largest number of species. And the bigger picture is clearly telling us that we should replace our limited resources with renewable ones.

You are right to raise concerns over hen harriers. But with your point made, and logic slapping you about the face, you perhaps ought to withdraw.
If indeed you are one and the same.

You're one step behind in the race, even the most advanced country in the world for wind farm development is turning against them!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/7996606/An-ill-wind-blows-for-Denmarks-green-energy-revolution.html

So far as the Hen Harrier (or Corncrake) is concerned, I don't think we can resolve that one unless someone can come up with evidence that they existed in Ireland immediately before human habitation of the country (Maybe they can?)!

Sponge Bob

Jim Martin wrote: »

You're one step behind in the race, even the most advanced country in the world for wind farm development is turning against them!

Again that is a completely different argument , namely that wind is intermittent. That was never in dispute in this thread.

Spirit of Ireland concede that from first principals as do all regulars in this thread. The discussion, therefore, is about whether integrated wind/storage arrays can deal with that intermittency and the extent thereof ...and not about nimbys in Clare or bog ownership in Mayo.

So far as the Hen Harrier (or Corncrake) is concerned, I don't think we can resolve that one unless someone can come up with evidence that they existed in Ireland immediately before human habitation of the country (Maybe they can?)!

You seemingly can't and you are the one who brought it up in the first place

The dirtiest power plant in Ireland is in Clare, I don't hear much about its effect on Corncrakes downwind all the same

luohaoran

Jim Martin wrote: »

You're one step behind in the race, even the most advanced country in the world for wind farm development is turning against them!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/7996606/An-ill-wind-blows-for-Denmarks-green-energy-revolution.html

So far as the Hen Harrier (or Corncrake) is concerned, I don't think we can resolve that one unless someone can come up with evidence that they existed in Ireland immediately before human habitation of the country (Maybe they can?)!

That article was written by Andrew Gilligan. Unless I'm mistaken, he had to leave the BBC, because (paraphrasing) the Hutton Report was requiring higher standards of journalists than of politicians. He has also had allegations of setting up online persona's to support his own viewpoints. So I'd be comfortable enough in accusing his article of being a bit on the anti-wind side.

That aside, I think his article is well researched and makes some very useful points.
In Irelands case,

that we should look to get a really good deal on turbines, with oversupply being a problem for the next while,

that we should keep the turbines as far from human habitation as is possible. Sorry Hen Harriers,

and of course that hydro storage is essential for a viable wind industry.

Then there is the fact that Britain will really be glad to fill our dams with their wind energy too.
Its all good news really.

Dan Jaman

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthcomment/geoffrey-lean/7572677/Has-Europe-seen-the-light-on-renewable-energy.html

dowlingm

"Solar power stations need large amounts of water"

Not all of them: http://www.stirlingenergy.com/technology.htm

Amtmann

So can we get back to Spirit of Ireland itself? I haven't heard of any updates from them in a while.

Heroditas

Furet wrote: »

So can we get back to Spirit of Ireland itself? I haven't heard of any updates from them in a while.

Graham O'Donnell from SoI appears to be chairing one of the sessions in the Smart Grid summit in Croke Park next Thursday.


SMART GRID PROGRAMME

luohaoran

Wow, not a peep on here about that prime time program last week. It was very anti wind energy. Stank to high heaven of vested interests buying a slot on RTE's primetime. You can always count on Eamon to go like a lamb to the slaughter. He was on remote link, while his opponent was in the studio, so sun in his eyes and standing upwind, he had little chance. And a clueless Miriam. It was sad to watch.

Really thought we'd have had some news of progress from SOI by now.
Anything?
When is this bright spark going to catch fire?
A revitalised media campaign was promised some time ago, but never showed up. At least not on my radar.

What gives?!!

Jim Martin

luohaoran wrote: »

Wow, not a peep on here about that prime time program last week. It was very anti wind energy. Stank to high heaven of vested interests buying a slot on RTE's primetime. You can always count on Eamon to go like a lamb to the slaughter. He was on remote link, while his opponent was in the studio, so sun in his eyes and standing upwind, he had little chance. And a clueless Miriam. It was sad to watch.

Really thought we'd have had some news of progress from SOI by now.
Anything?
When is this bright spark going to catch fire?
A revitalised media campaign was promised some time ago, but never showed up. At least not on my radar.

What gives?!!

Maybe, just maybe, reality is beginning to hit home?

mgmt

luohaoran wrote: »

Wow, not a peep on here about that prime time program last week. It was very anti wind energy. Stank to high heaven of vested interests buying a slot on RTE's primetime. You can always count on Eamon to go like a lamb to the slaughter. He was on remote link, while his opponent was in the studio, so sun in his eyes and standing upwind, he had little chance. And a clueless Miriam. It was sad to watch.

Really thought we'd have had some news of progress from SOI by now.
Anything?
When is this bright spark going to catch fire?
A revitalised media campaign was promised some time ago, but never showed up. At least not on my radar.

What gives?!!

This project will never go ahead. It will not work and won't work. SOI has the same merit as STEORN. The primetime programme did not come down hard enough on wind imo. Total useless technology.

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

^^^
LOL

Dan Jaman

mgmt wrote: »

This project will never go ahead. It will not work and won't work. SOI has the same merit as STEORN. The primetime programme did not come down hard enough on wind imo. Total useless technology.

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

^^^
LOL

That's the whole point of the stored water, or did you miss that little item in your rush to condemn it?

ei.sdraob

luohaoran wrote: »

Wow, not a peep on here about that prime time program last week. It was very anti wind energy. Stank to high heaven of vested interests buying a slot on RTE's primetime. You can always count on Eamon to go like a lamb to the slaughter. He was on remote link, while his opponent was in the studio, so sun in his eyes and standing upwind, he had little chance. And a clueless Miriam. It was sad to watch.

Really thought we'd have had some news of progress from SOI by now.
Anything?
When is this bright spark going to catch fire?
A revitalised media campaign was promised some time ago, but never showed up. At least not on my radar.

What gives?!!

Has it occurred to you that you and everyone is being taken for an expensive ride, costing everyone in the economy dearly
by the wind industry who would not be profitable without subsidies, and if they are profitable without them then why the hell are we subsidising them at a time when the country is bankrupt
on one hand we had an engineer talking sense on the other hand we had Eamon Ryan peddling his usual lies thru his permanently tattooed grin

As for SOI, great idea from an engineering point of view (thats if the numbers add up, they have not provided much detail, just hot air) but it should not be paid for by the taxpayer, especially considering their business plan is to export the energy for private profit, not use it to lower prices here in Ireland.

mgmt

Dan Jaman wrote: »

That's the whole point of the stored water, or did you miss that little item in your rush to condemn it?

http://sustainability.ie/pumpedstoragemyth.html

mgmt

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Has it occurred to you that you and everyone is being taken for an expensive ride, costing everyone in the economy dearly

by the wind industry who would not be profitable without subsidies, and if they are profitable without them then why the hell are we subsidising them at a time when the country is bankrupt

on one hand we had an engineer talking sense on the other hand we had Eamon Ryan peddling his usual lies thru his permanently tattooed grin

Yeah, his smug ****ing face really pissed me off. Denmark has the greatest percentage of wind power in Europe. It has not taken a single thermal power plant off line. It has the most expensive electricity rate in Europe. Basically all we are paying for is for a new generation of famine follies.

raymann

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Has it occurred to you that you and everyone is being taken for an expensive ride, costing everyone in the economy dearly
by the wind industry who would not be profitable without subsidies, and if they are profitable without them then why the hell are we subsidising them at a time when the country is bankrupt
on one hand we had an engineer talking sense on the other hand we had Eamon Ryan peddling his usual lies thru his permanently tattooed grin

As for SOI, great idea from an engineering point of view (thats if the numbers add up, they have not provided much detail, just hot air) but it should not be paid for by the taxpayer, especially considering their business plan is to export the energy for private profit, not use it to lower prices here in Ireland.

its like a permanent smirk. i just cant listen to anything that he says. he comes across as completely smug and self satisfied.

ei.sdraob

mgmt wrote: »

Yeah, his smug ****ing face really pissed me off. Denmark has the greatest percentage of wind power in Europe. It has not taken a single thermal power plant off line. It has the most expensive electricity rate in Europe. Basically all we are paying for is for a new generation of famine follies.

I had a thread on the subject a week before the PrimeTime


the way I see it we are wasting billions on subsidising wind generators at a time when the country has to beg for money at loan shark rate interest, and can least afford it
and then we have the smug bastard from the dept of dial up telling us how we should trust him and the likes of him to lead its into his clean energy utopia
with no cost/benefit analysis done and no idea of how much this one way bet will cost the country :rolleyes:
thats the same people that have allowed NAMA and the bailouts to pass now telling us to trust them, no ****ing way
not until i see figures to prove their thesis, all i keep seeing is ideological fluff and no data to back it up

hi5

Does SOI have a minature working model of the concept,I've not seen one.
Some industrial fans,small boat type wind turbine,12v pump/water turbine and a couple of plastic garden type ponds:)
Hey,I might even have a go myself.

mgmt

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I had a thread on the subject a week before the PrimeTime


the way I see it we are wasting billions on subsidising wind generators at a time when the country has to beg for money at loan shark rate interest, and can least afford it
and then we have the smug bastard from the dept of dial up telling us how we should trust him and the likes of him to lead its into his clean energy utopia
with no cost/benefit analysis done and no idea of how much this one way bet will cost the country :rolleyes:
thats the same people that have allowed NAMA and the bailouts to pass now telling us to trust them, no ****ing way
not until i see figures to prove their thesis, all i keep seeing is ideological fluff and no data to back it up

I was watching the programme and the ineptitude was shocking. The head of CEI and eirgrid either knew nothing or chose to say nothing.

Q.How much is wind power adding to the cost of new infastructure??
A. Ahhhhhh dunno

This phrase came to mind watching the programme:

It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt

They know wind is a fantasy idea.

mgmt

hi5 wrote: »

Does SOI have a minature working model of the concept,I've not seen one.
Some industrial fans,small boat type wind turbine,12v pump/water turbine and a couple of plastic garden type ponds:)
Hey,I might even have a go myself.

All that these academics are looking for is research grants from the government. That is basically what this proposal is driving. Engineers Ireland comes out with fantasy projects every so often. Like the Eastern bypass, Irish sea tunnel etc. A feasibility report will be commisioned by the government (costing millions) and then the project will be tossed aside.

hi5

hi5 wrote: »

Does SOI have a minature working model of the concept,I've not seen one.
Some industrial fans,small boat type wind turbine,12v pump/water turbine and a couple of plastic garden type ponds:)
Hey,I might even have a go myself.

It's not the concept that is the problem (pumped storage using sea water has been done before - in Japan for example) - it's the business model or rather the complete lack of business model. The numbers were never going to add up. The SOI group were hoping to create a national agenda, get loads of money from the government and then become multi-millionaires personally.

ei.sdraob

mgmt wrote: »

Q.How much is wind power adding to the cost of new infastructure??
A. Ahhhhhh dunno

Shocking ain't it? and thats the guy in charge of our grid and getting paid well north of 200K, raises the point of how did he get the job.

you think they would have some idea considering there are plans for 40% production, yet no details or cost/benefit analysis done, talk about a one way gamble

Its this exact sort of ineptude and lack of responsibility at the higher echelons of power that have led to the banking failures.

Dan Jaman

mgmt wrote: »

http://sustainability.ie/pumpedstoragemyth.html

Typical NIMBY hatchet job and just as full of speculation and wild-arsed guesswork as the most tree-hugging greeny.

luohaoran

Well, there seems to be a lot of popular support for SOI on here.:p

What upset me about the program was that despite making the point several times that they could not determine how much of the cost of the grid update, or the inter-connectors, was down solely to the development of wind energy, they still chose to take the total cost as their figure.

I think one point which is possibly the most important one is the difference between generating your own electricity and importing it.

Some of you say the figures don't stack up. Because they have not been shown to you to stack up.
Actually if you research it a little you'll find the figures have been given, have been scrutinized and while they do not show a clear advantage for wind, they certainly bring it to the right ball park figure.
Just getting to the right ball park is good enough, because...

... of the difference between growing your own and importing.

Do I need to explain that concept??

How many Irish people profit from every 100 euro of imported fuel?
Or to put it another way, how much of the 100 euro goes into the Irish economic engine?
If I pay an oil producing country 100 euro for a unit of oil, he puts the whole damn lot into his pocket, and heads straight back to his own country to spend it. With some luck , he might buy an Irish steak and return something to us, but it isn't going to help us all that much really.

If I pay Paddy , down the road, I can afford to pay him as much as 199 euro, for the same unit of energy and I, (I being Ireland inc) have only lost 99 euro. And its only lost if Paddy spends half of his 199 outside the country.

If you were to take the time to make the above example realistic, i.e. work out where Paddy actually spends his money, including the cost of importing the turbines, building the foundations for each tower. You'll quickly find that you can spend a huge amount producing Irish home grown power in the place of importing Oil, Gas, Coal, and still finish up with Ireland inc benefiting overall.

It is such a no brainer. Quite frankly , it does not matter, how much it costs to produce here, the benefit will always outway the cost. Because its homebrew. So a huge proportion of the euro spent, stay here.

Every other argument is really quite trivial in comparison.
If you don't understand this, then you don't deserve to live in a prosperous self-sufficient country.
If Ireland does not understand this, then none of us will get to live in prosperous self-sufficient country.